FTS-01 The Accountant Wars

[Nares]

Name capital Tax Haven?

Might as well name it after one of those Caribbean islands.

Btw, is the roster still open?

Interesting link that you posted. I didn't realize that the current GOTM was playing Saladin. The thing about Jastrow's strategy is that it requires using the Oracle to get Civil Service. That is doable on Prince, but a bit more difficult on Monarch. Unless you start with gold or some other high-commerce start, it is quite risky to run the CS slingshot at this level. Plus, I'd rather use my first GS to get Philosophy since it opens up Pacifism.

Well, Jastrow chose to use The Oracle in order to research Civil Service. GOTM7 also started in the midst of a bunch of Flood Plains for some uber-Cottage cheese. Given the start here, and the added difficulty of Monarch, the safer bet is to use your first Great Prophet for partial CS research. With Saladin, that's not a problem. I also feel you can avoid a "all your eggs in one basket" approach, build a second city, and then focus on The Oracle.

Regardless, you're looking at using the The Oracle for CoL, and a Great Prophet for CS in this game. The only real difference is applying your first Great Scientist towards an Academy rather than Philosophy, which also serves to delay researching Mathematics a little bit, giving you a higher degree of freedom post-Oracle. Academy + Bureaucracy = yum. I suppose the question, and this leads into my next point, is when do you plan on moving from Axemen to Macemen.

It seems you're looking to use the GS for Philosophy in order to gain access to Pacifism. I don't really see the need to run Pacifism so early, given the relatively low Great Person costs at that point, nor do I see it working exceptionally well with the pressumed war(s) you would need to engage in around that time. Again, it depends on how soon you want to head towards Machinery, and how many and when you want to engage in early warfare.

Do you plan on delaying (major) war until Camel Archers? That's a (relatively) huge deviation from the Philosphy track.

 

[Conroe]

How early does the AI grab the Oracle on Monarch?

Well, with this map it is kind of hard to say. We are looking at a low-hammer, high-commerce map compared to some of the other maps out there. But, I would expect it to be built somewhere between 1200BC and 1000BC.

Do you plan on delaying (major) war until Camel Archers? That's a (relatively) huge deviation from the Philosphy track.

It's too early to answer that question. Until we reveal more of the map, we won't know if we can reach another civ by Galley.

 

[Conroe]

Roster:
Conroe
Foolonthehill
Ozbenno
Asperge
pigswill
Nares

For the first round, we will play 30, 20, 20, 15, 15 turns and then go to the normal 10 turns thereafter. I'll be starting this off in the next couple of hours. Unless anyone has any objections, I am going to go the Oracle-CoL route. After that, we will need to decide PDQ whether we want to go Civil Service or Great Lighthouse.

Standard SG rules of etiquette apply. You will have 24 hours to post a "Got It" with another 48 hours to post your turn results. Please let us know if you need a skip or swap.

Btw, is the roster still open?

Technically, no. If you'd like to join us, though, I think we can fit 6. Just let me know.

I'd love to.

Done.

 

[FoolontheHill]

I just played a couple of test games and pulled off a true CS slingshot in one of them. Civil Service in 850BC.

I'm not sure it's worth it though because I basically couldn't deviate at all from the CS path. So, I have civil service, but no bronze working, sailing, etc. Infrastructure is minimal as well as everything went into the oracle and one other city. 7th place in almost everything.

In my test, I was on a small island so I didn't have to worry about barbs, etc.

I still think I was lucky and it would be risky to try. The COL slingshot with the GP looks like a much better play.

 

[Conroe]

I just played a couple of test games and pulled off a true CS slingshot in one of them. Civil Service in 850BC.

Wow! Pretty good. What kind of starting resources did you have? Did you have gold or gems or something to boost your research?

 

[Conroe]

Turn 0 - 4000BC: Mecca is founded on the spot. Good news and bad news, though. We will have access to dye within the city radius. But, our starting island looks like it may only be large enough for the one city. I had hoped that our starting island would be large enough for two cities.

And, I just realized, not a goody hut in sight! I can't remember the last time I played a game and didn't have a hut near my capitol.

Since the rice is on a river, it gets a commerce bonus. This means that we could possibly snag Buddhism if we start it now. However, I really don't want to take the chance, plus I would like to get an early Work Boat out exploring the waters around our island. So, I start us on Fishing. Meanwhile, Mecca starts on a Worker.

Turn 6 - 3760BC: Fishing is learned and I start us on the road to Hinduism (Polytheism). Meanwhile, I preempt the Worker build in favor of a Work Boat.

And, it turns out we would have had a second city site if we had moved our starting Settler 1W before founding Mecca. We can still fit a second city, but it will have a lot of overlap with Mecca.

Turn 9 - 3640BC: Meet Catherine. Wow! That is quick. Her scout is on the island SW of ours.

Turn 13 - 3480BC: Ahh! A goody hut on the desert pennisula that is the northern part of our island! We get 5xp -- I'd have much rather had cash! Our roaming Warrior does discover fish and stone at the northern end of the island, though. A definite future city site.

Turn 17 - 3320BC: Polytheism is learned. I start us on Mining. We also found (and convert to) Hinduism. Unfortunately, Buddhism has yet to be founded. We could have saved 2 turns of research by going after Buddhism.

Turn 20 - 3200BC: Mecca completes a Work Boat and resumes training of our Worker. Meanwhile, our Work Boat begins exploring.

Turn 23 - 3080BC: Buddhism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 24 - 3040BC: Mining comes in and I start on Priesthood.

Turn 28 - 2880BC: Mecca completes a Worker and begins training a Warrior. This Warrior will need to be preempted for the Oracle.

Turn 30 - 2800BC: Priesthood is learned and I start us on Agriculture. Meanwhile, I preempt our Warrior build in favor of the Oracle.

Notes: It says the Oracle will take 75 turns to build. But, as Mecca grows and can work the mines that our Worker is constructing, then that time will come down dramatically. Actually, we could probably finish the Warrior in the queue before starting the Oracle if the next person is so inclined.

Our current Warrior is fortified in the north on barb fog busting duties. I recommend not moving him until after Mecca's next border expansion.

As far as research goes, we can do whatever Worker techs that we want at the moment. I would suggest that Sailing be a high priority as it will start spreading our religion to some of our neighbors. But, whatever you do, make sure that Writing is complete before the Oracle is complete (or at the same time). Without Writing, we cannot take the Code of Laws as our free tech! And, I strongly recommend that we NOT research Masonry so that we can get Civil Service from a Great Prophet.

Here is a look at the known world:

And, a closer look at the land surrounding our capital:

Foolonthehill, you're up next for 20 turns. Here is the save:

 

[Ozbenno]

We should be able to squeeze a fishing village up north in the island for the stone.

As for the previous discussions, I think getting CS early is a better long term goal than heading for the GL, mainly as the GL seems an AI favourite and at Monarch they could nab it before us!

 

[Nares]

We also found (and convert to) Hinduism.

Glad to see we got the religion already.

I was just running a test game of the settings and have a few notes I want to highlight.

This is a dry map. High water levels and a Rocky climate mean we won't find many good sites for Cottage spam. I'm partially surprised we landed as green a starting island as we did.

We're up against a bunch of Space-racing Financial bean counters. There's no question that we'll be behind in tech for a long time. By a long time, I mean the whole game. We may actually want to leverage the Philosophical trait to produce more Super Specialists instead of using them for research (aside from the first Great Scientist for an Academy). Especially since we're unlikely to nab a hut for gold, which means our research falters as soon as we start expanding. Great Prophet Super Specialists may be our best friends for a long time.

I really don't see us grabbing any religion besides Hinduism unless we take it by force. Left alone as it will be, these AIs will more than likely each try to grab their own.

Based on our starting position, we're in the lower of the two northern green bands, just above the equitorial Jungle band. This means potential Flood Plains north of us, but more likely they'll be Desert before hitting the northern Grassland band above that. I don't relish the idea of expanding into mostly Jungle covered islands, but I don't really see much choice. East and West are our two best options at this point.

 

[Nares]

We should be able to squeeze a fishing village up north in the island for the stone.

We need potential growth and definate profitability for the time being.

Unless we're planning on nabbing Angkor Wat. I dunno, are we? I still think that a fishing village up there would be highly dependent on some sort of sea resource (or two).

 

[Ozbenno]

We need potential growth and definate profitability for the time being.

Unless we're planning on nabbing Angkor Wat. I dunno, are we? I still think that a fishing village up there would be highly dependent on some sort of sea resource (or two).

With Sailing and Lighthouse every ocean square is 2f2g, maintenance would be at most 2-3gp short term, so it wouldn't be a drain on finances. Having said that, some resources would sweeten the deal. There are a few blackened squares still up there.

 

[pigswill]

Poss tech path:agric,pottery,writing,bronze. Not sure about northern stone village. Its unlikely we'll be pursuing stone based wonders in the near future;long term its a naff location. A lot will depend on military resources;chances are we'll have researched bronze, poss AH by the time we've finished the oracle so there's no immediate hurry to decide.

 

[Conroe]

We're up against a bunch of Space-racing Financial bean counters. There's no question that we'll be behind in tech for a long time. By a long time, I mean the whole game. We may actually want to leverage the Philosophical trait to produce more Super Specialists instead of using them for research (aside from the first Great Scientist for an Academy). Especially since we're unlikely to nab a hut for gold, which means our research falters as soon as we start expanding. Great Prophet Super Specialists may be our best friends for a long time.

Well, that is kind of the point of this game. There is no way we are going to be the GNP leaders in this game. If we want to keep up with the AI in techs, I don't see self-research as the way to go. With or without an Academy, it just isn't going to happen. We need to come up with alternative methods for acquiring techs. I know of only 3 ways: great people, trading, and the end of a pointy stick.

At the moment, we have no military for pointy stick research. So that is out. We also have nothing of value to trade (assuming we had the ability to even do a tech trade). So that, too, is out. That leaves great people as the easiest method of acquiring techs. Once we have a couple of nice techs, we can do some serious horse trading for the other techs. Before the BC's are over, we should be the tech leader.

Super specialist are nice, but they really shine when you are running the Representation civic. But, of course, that requires the Pyramids. And, we may very well end up with some Priest Super Specialist before the game is over. Eventually, the GP will not offer us a tech that we will need. Personally, though, I'd rather finance our expansion with Great Merchants. They will bring in a lot more gold than the Priests. Especially when the Prophet will give me Divine Right so that I can build the Versailles!

This is why I also think we would benefit from Pacifism. Getting these great people out 50% faster will in the early game will help us later on. It would be nice to hit the AI with Macemen before they even build longbows. But, once we start building a military, we won't be able to afford Pacifism. It has double the unit support costs. Once those costs start getting too high, we will have to switch out of it.

I really don't see us grabbing any religion besides Hinduism unless we take it by force.

We should get Confucianism from Code of Laws. Plus, if we use the GP for Philosopy we will get Taoism. The extra religions will be nice when we switch to Free Religion.

Based on our starting position, we're in the lower of the two northern green bands, just above the equitorial Jungle band.

Mecca is 4 tiles north of the equator. So, yes, there will be a bit of jungle. Hopefully, Catherine will clear all of the jungle off of that island for us.

 

[Conroe]

With Sailing and Lighthouse every ocean square is 2f2g, maintenance would be at most 2-3gp short term, so it wouldn't be a drain on finances. Having said that, some resources would sweeten the deal. There are a few blackened squares still up there.

There is a fish resource there, as well. Oh, and a hill as well for some hammers. I don't recall if it was plains or desert, though.

Poss tech path:agric,pottery,writing,bronze. Not sure about northern stone village.

Good suggestions! I would also add Sailing to the list. This will put our cities onto the trade network and allow our religion(s) to spread. Come trading time, I think we may need the relations boost to do some deals.

 

[angeleyes]

Foolonthehill's avater is the only picture i can see, he must be special.

I tried the variant on immortal (by accident) and was 3 turns late for Oracle...(but i did build stonehenge).

 

[angeleyes]

Conroe, i think it's incomprehensible you did not use that workboat to grab the fish. With fish your city is growing faster, buildig your worker goes faster, research goes faster.

We don't need Colossus, we have dye!

We should build a city (but not our second) west from the dye.

Think about building the pyramide. We are spiritual, we are philosophical, and we have stone. All good arguments to build it.

You are very early with building the Oracle. I'll eat my hat if we miss this

 

[Ozbenno]

There is a fish resource there, as well. Oh, and a hill as well for some hammers. I don't recall if it was plains or desert, though.

Good suggestions! I would also add Sailing to the list. This will put our cities onto the trade network and allow our religion(s) to spread. Come trading time, I think we may need the relations boost to do some deals.

I think Sailing is a big priority here.

Also agree that Pacifism would be of much benefit to the type of game we need to play.

 

[FoolontheHill]

Wow! Pretty good. What kind of starting resources did you have? Did you have gold or gems or something to boost your research?

Nope. Just 4 forests and a fish tile. I think the key is I basically built nothing but the oracle, one settler and a couple of workers.

I still think your approach is better because you had a more developed infrastructure at the same point and still had civil service about 10 turns later (even though the great prophet was used).

 

[FoolontheHill]

Foolonthehill, you're up next for 20 turns. Here is the save:

Got it! Will probably play and post the report tonight.

 

[Conroe]

Conroe, i think it's incomprehensible you did not use that workboat to grab the fish. With fish your city is growing faster, buildig your worker goes faster, research goes faster.

Well, I really wanted to get some early exploration done to try and get a feel for where we would be able to expand. But, you also raise some valid points. I don't know if it was a move on my part or not. But, it is not too late to call the Work Boat back to start fishing ... Or, we can preempt the Oracle to build another one (15 turns @ size 2 and 10 turns @ size 3).

Think about building the pyramide. We are spiritual, we are philosophical, and we have stone. All good arguments to build it.

You are very early with building the Oracle. I'll eat my hat if we miss this

The Pyramids would be really nice to have. Immediate access to Representation and Hereditary Rule; access to Police State for when we start building troops! The problem with that is, like the Great Lighthouse, it requires Masonry. If we research Masonry, we will not get Civil Service from a Prophet.

Why was Buddhism founded so late? My fear is that our religious opponent started in a low commerce, high hammer part of the map. If that is the case, then the Oracle could go quickly. Or, I could just be paranoid. We won't know for sure unless we miss it ...

 

[pigswill]

It would be quicker to recall the exploring fishing boat than build another one. We should certainly finish Oracle before thinking about Pyramids. I think we need to find out about military resources (bronze,iron,hosses) on our island fairly soon coz we ain't going to win by peaceful research and tech-trading.