Full Patch Notes for December Patch

[generalwar]

Now, with stronger cities and not so bigger armies, it will need more time to produce all types of units for attack from spearman to catapult in ancient age and from tank to anti-tank and so on in modern times. I haven't remembered everything, but is there going to be a faster production after this patch?

 

[neilkaz]

I think until Puppets are nerfed (and the less important cultural city states are changed), we're definitely going to see this as a continuing trend. I've gotten 1800 AD culture wins with no selling cities exploit using a 1-city empire, proving this is possible post-patch as well. One of these wins was actually with Siam.

I think the points we're arguing over are extremely close. Both pre and post patch, we agree Siam will be a very strong civ, I just think it will see a slight nerf and you a slight buff.


1 city + puppets (ie a 1 city empire in my definition) will actually see a buff post-patch. It's always been strong, but with the new national wonders, I think it'll be even better. I'm still really surprised that puppets didn't get nerfed to hell, and I think it's the #1 thing that needs to be changed.

Over the weekend, I played an Immortal India game and only had 2 cities. I was not planning an OCC and just playing to win my usual domination victory. I built the 2nd city directly on horses and went to work on Liz who's cities where popping up on my borders like weeds. I puppetted most of her cities and then went to work on Sully to my south, doing the same after a while.

I ended up with only my two original cities and having gone for a very early Stonehenge (like 4 monuments for the price of 2 and no maintenance) I was popping SP's quickly and as I continued my conquests towards the west, I kept puppetting and filling up my puppets with TP's.

Anyhow, I honestly don't recall such an OP game on Immortal and this build very few new cities and puppet strat seems very powerful.

.. neilkaz ..

 

[alpaca]

I completely agree. Add to it that 1 food early game means less 1 food late game, and the abuse for maritimes is seen. It's not like production or gold which sees percent bonuses.


Yeah and it's giving me a headache... it's unbelievable.


Due to this, Alpaca, you're right, Siam's going to remain a powerhouse. I can't believe rounding errors of all things are giving it double its normal bonus. Really stupidly though, what if the Ren bonus post-patch for Allies is +2 food/city? Then when Siam switches to Ren, it sees a penalty of its bonus from 100% to 50% compared to everyone else.

I agree it's pretty ridiculous. I guess we'll have to wait for the patch for the final tally.

The Wat is also a bonus that shouldn't be under-estimated: A university you can build without needing a library. Saves you 80 hammers, so about 15 turns you get your two scientists earlier. And 3 culture points and 1 less maintenance to boot.

So for large empires, Siam gets quite close to Babylon in my opinion (even if the university has 2 scientist slots, which is my current assumption). Their extra culture allows you to get Rationalism much more easily, you get your Great Scientist production in each city online a bit faster which compensates for part of the bonus Babylon gets, and you can do it with fewer Maritime allies. Lastly, the UU is better, especially if you don't go for conquest wars.

Babylon is the better warmonger with a Steel bulb or early Academy, though, and probably still get a couple more GS.

 

[Sneaks]

Of course, the real downside of playing Siam that I do not think anyone is taking in to proper account is that if you are playing as Rammy, you cannot DoW him. Thus, you are playing a full game while never getting to see the Rammy backstep shuffle.

 

[Celevin]

The Wat is also a bonus that shouldn't be under-estimated: A university you can build without needing a library. Saves you 80 hammers, so about 15 turns you get your two scientists earlier. And 3 culture points and 1 less maintenance to boot.

To me the big bonus about the Wat is it's right in the path that I'd take if I wanted to go for a culture victory anyways, there's no diverting necessary and it's a nice boost for the victory you're going for.

So for large empires, Siam gets quite close to Babylon in my opinion (even if the university has 2 scientist slots, which is my current assumption). Their extra culture allows you to get Rationalism much more easily, you get your Great Scientist production in each city online a bit faster which compensates for part of the bonus Babylon gets, and you can do it with fewer Maritime allies. Lastly, the UU is better, especially if you don't go for conquest wars.

Babylon is the better warmonger with a Steel bulb or early Academy, though, and probably still get a couple more GS.

[/quote]
I will still hold that Babylon got hit so hard by the library nerf that going for war isn't safe. Even if they manage the slingshot off 1 single Great Scientist, it won't last, and then they have no UA until they get universities. They should instead use their UA to grab universities, and then choose between war or science. That second Great Scientist used to come very quickly after the first, and they lost it. I don't think Babylon will be very competitive anymore.

 

[Ahriman]

The Wat is also a bonus that shouldn't be under-estimated: A university you can build without needing a library

I dunno; in any science city, I'm probably going to want the library anyway. Is skipping it really that valuable?

I will still hold that Babylon got hit so hard by the library nerf that going for war isn't safe. Even if they manage the slingshot off 1 single Great Scientist, it won't last, and then they have no UA until they get universities.
...
I don't think Babylon will be very competitive anymore.

Agreed. I wish they'd fixed great scientists rather than removing access to them until the midgame.
It just means that there's no real point in getting great people early on, better to wait for university (so your great person costs don't go up) and then start getting great scientists to bulb your way to riflemen and the like.
And I think its funny that it won't really be possible anymore to actually get a Classical era Academy. Poor Plato.

 

[Celevin]

Of course, the real downside of playing Siam that I do not think anyone is taking in to proper account is that if you are playing as Rammy, you cannot DoW him. Thus, you are playing a full game while never getting to see the Rammy backstep shuffle.

Discussion over, Sneaks won.

 

[alpaca]

I dunno; in any science city, I'm probably going to want the library anyway. Is skipping it really that valuable?

If you go for cities with size 4, a library adds just 2 science for 1 maintenance. In that case, building university first is quite valuable in my opinion. You can get your two scientists up at 9 science per turn, plus you also get 2 from population due to the 50% bonus. So you get 11 science + 6 gpp per turn 10-15 turns earlier, and lose only 2 science per turn for maybe 20-25 turns after the Wat is finished. It's not a gigantic bonus but it shouldn't be under-estimated: You get your first GS at about the time other civs start to invest in one unless you compare with Babylon.

So if you have science cities, yes, you will get libraries. But you can simply get science rolling earlier with Siam.

Agreed. I wish they'd fixed great scientists rather than removing access to them until the midgame.
It just means that there's no real point in getting great people early on, better to wait for university (so your great person costs don't go up) and then start getting great scientists to bulb your way to riflemen and the like.
And I think its funny that it won't really be possible anymore to actually get a Classical era Academy. Poor Plato.

Yes, I'm currently playing around with GS yielding a number of beakers that depends on the number of techs you have researched. Even if you tie it to era, it would be better than the current system (although eras are discontinuous enough in my opinion)

 

[Ahriman]

If you go for cities with size 4, a library adds just 2 science for 1 maintenance

In normal play I wouldn't really have size 4 cities in the medieval era, but I suppose with the new happiness system that it will make a lot of sense to have a size 4 city; just enough to be supported by a single colosseum (with 2 extra unhappiness to be supported by luxuries, wonders or policies).

I understand why they did the happiness cap = population size, but it sure is going to encourage some odd micromanagement.

So you get 11 science + 6 gpp per turn 10-15 turns earlier

I wouldn't really say 10-15 turns earlier, since chances are you'll have built many of your libraries before you reach Education tech.

Yes, I'm currently playing around with GS yielding a number of beakers that depends on the number of techs you have researched.

This would be ideal.

 

[Celevin]

Yes, I'm currently playing around with GS yielding a number of beakers that depends on the number of techs you have researched. Even if you tie it to era, it would be better than the current system (although eras are discontinuous enough in my opinion)

Could you do it as a function based on how much science you've researched to date?

Back to the main topic (patch changes), I wonder if great scientists were inadvertently nerfed due to the additional tech requirements.

 

[Ahriman]

Could you do it as a function based on how much science you've researched to date?

Or easier would be: cumulative tech costs of all the techs you have completed.

That way you don't have confusion due to free techs from research agreements or previous great scientists or partially researched techs.

But number of techs is probably continuous enough.

I wonder if great scientists were inadvertently nerfed due to the additional tech requirements

Additionally? Yes, somewhat, particularly the dynamite nerf.
Inadvertent? No, I think this is very deliberate, they specifically said they were trying to limit slingshots.

 

[Louis XXIV]

One method I thought of was to have the amount of beakers a great scientist gives you would be equal to the average amount of beakers for all techs going back to the beginning (so there would be diminishing returns the farther you go, but, as long as you don't try sling shotting two or three techs ahead on one branch, but spread yourself out and research everything, this should be minimal) + some set amount (like 200 beakers).

It would still allow free techs early, but if you jump ahead three techs in a row, that third tech won't even be half completed with a Great Scientist.

 

[Celevin]

Additionally? Yes, somewhat, particularly the dynamite nerf.
Inadvertent? No, I think this is very deliberate, they specifically said they were trying to limit slingshots.

Yeah, I definitely worded that wrong. I still haven't gone over the particular additions, but I'm assuming it'll be harder in general to get to the Renaissance, particularly Acoustics and Rifling.

 

[neilkaz]

I do think that they've overnerfed the Library and I'd have had it have just one spec slot... but anyhow.

I'm just an Immortal player and I have no experience with sling shots and always take my SP immediately and don't save GS for very long so I'll defer to the Deity players here with more experience than me.

Anyhow, with Babylon I always used my first GS for an Academy as +5S turn after turn and then compounded by buildings seemed very useful. I've gone so far as to build 3 quick academies or two and National College, although I ended up well behind in production and doubt that I could get away with this much early infrastructure vs some expansion and militart on Deity. I do think that a quick Bab Academy will be strong post patch.

One wonders why almost everything in the game uses at least 1 decimal point except for food bonuses? Certainly a small number like food should use 1 decimal place and then % bonuses could be applied much more accurately and fairly.

Siam does seem like they will be uber-strong post patch. A rather quick rush to Wat as along with some military as needed looks quite nice.

India will be awesome due to happiness concerns.

I wonder how much the horseman nerf will hamper Greece's currently very OP CC's?

.. neilkaz ..

 

[bryanw1995]

I completely agree. Add to it that 1 food early game means less than 1 food late game does, and the abuse for maritimes is seen. (My logic: simply 1 population offers more gold/production through multipliers in the late game compared to early game)


Yeah and it's giving me a headache... it's unbelievable.


Due to this, Alpaca, you're right, Siam's going to remain a powerhouse. I can't believe rounding errors of all things are giving it double its normal bonus. Really stupidly though, what if the Ren bonus post-patch for Allies is +2 food/city? Then when Siam switches to Ren, it sees a penalty of its bonus from 100% to 50% compared to everyone else.

wow, that's annoying. however, if maritime food is boosted to +4/+2 post-patch then at least siam's bonus will be "fixed" post-renaissance b/c the math is exact...

 

[bryanw1995]

In normal play I wouldn't really have size 4 cities in the medieval era, but I suppose with the new happiness system that it will make a lot of sense to have a size 4 city; just enough to be supported by a single colosseum (with 2 extra unhappiness to be supported by luxuries, wonders or policies).

I understand why they did the happiness cap = population size, but it sure is going to encourage some odd micromanagement.


I wouldn't really say 10-15 turns earlier, since chances are you'll have built many of your libraries before you reach Education tech.


This would be ideal.

the key is you don't really want a library in a size 4 city b/c the lost production and 1 gold maintenance per turn probably isn't worth 2 beakers/turn unless you plan to grow that city to a larger size later on.

 

[alpaca]

Could you do it as a function based on how much science you've researched to date?

In principle yes, but I actually like it better to have it depend on the number of techs - because that rewards wide instead of deep research. Basing it on era rewards deep research more, and your proposition rewards both equally. I think we already have enough things making you want to go deep and break those era boundaries (Social Policies and city state bonuses being the most prominent) so having something pull you in the other direction is interesting.

Back to the main topic (patch changes), I wonder if great scientists were inadvertently nerfed due to the additional tech requirements.

A bit. New tech links get rid of the worst slingshot exploits, but GS are still far above the other Great People. At least the notorious gunpowder-into-artillery slingshot is gun (excuse the pun).

 

[bryanw1995]

Or easier would be: cumulative tech costs of all the techs you have completed.

That way you don't have confusion due to free techs from research agreements or previous great scientists or partially researched techs.

But number of techs is probably continuous enough.


Additionally? Yes, somewhat, particularly the dynamite nerf.
Inadvertent? No, I think this is very deliberate, they specifically said they were trying to limit slingshots.

and with very good reason, GS was the only sensible great person to use in almost any game scenario. now you might get an engineer/artist/scientist/etc from an early wonder or 2, and it just might make sense to look at other great people some times.

 

[Sneaks]

I just wished I could follow the logic of needing Chivalry for Acoustics. It works for gameplay, but just makes me scratch my head otherwise. Would have preferred a Physics link, but that would have been a tech tree reorganization.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Wandering minstrels?