Future of the Illians vs. Their Past

[Kael]

The rule was that a god simply can't enter creation, not only is it forbidden but its not possible. The real breakthrough was made by Trenton during the Age of Magic. He discovered a ritual which would allow a god to enter creation and rushed back to his people to use it to save his people who were dying.

This was one of the D&D campaigns I won, and it went over many rl years. By the end he stood at his homeland with the ritual in hand and his people on the verge of death. But he knew that summoning Danalin would save his people but restart the godswar. After all of his traveling and friends met amoung many races (and the realization that many more would die if Danalin was summoned) he decided not to use the ritual. The Aifons were destroyed and Danalin, crushed and angered by the loss of his people, slipped into a deep sleep.

Much later that same rituals was discovered by the Illians. But they didn't share Trenton's compassion and decided to risk the godswar and summon Mulcarn into the world.

 

[Seventh Star]

Okay, I'm confused. The compact has enough power to keep a god out unless he has help from Erebus, but not enough to stop Armageddon or various archangels? Or did they just forget to put that in? And if mulcarn needed the ritual, how did Sucellus or Bhall get in?

 

[Ur_Vile_Wedge]

Something else that isn't quite making sense to me.

If the Gods couldn't enter Erebus even without the compact, then what was the point of putting the Godslayer into Creation? I mean, without this ritual thingy, none of them could enter Creation at all. Agares could say, decide to break the compact, send all of his demons into Erebus, and sit back and relax in his vault, secure in the knowledge that the sword couldn't touch him, since he hadn't entered himself.


Or am I mising something completely?

 

[Mewtarthio]

Okay, I'm confused. The compact has enough power to keep a god out unless he has help from Erebus, but not enough to stop Armageddon or various archangels? Or did they just forget to put that in? And if mulcarn needed the ritual, how did Sucellus or Bhall get in?

As I understand it, Bhall didn't enter creation. As she fell, her portfolio (fire and rapid, chaotic change) went into chaos, consuming the world in flame and sending Braduk straight to Hell with her. As for Sucellus, he was chosen among the Good gods to fight Mulcarn since Bhall was no longer opposing him, so I believe all the Good gods together were able to send him in (or else he expended his "miracle power" for one massive boon to his worshippers so the ritual could be completed).

As for the FfH proper violations: Cassiel, Basium, and Sphener all willingly surrendered their positions in heaven so that they could enter creation. Basium still has access to angelic forces because a mortal empire has expended the resources to open the Mercurian Gate and let him in. Hyborem and his army were summoned by the Ashen Veil as part of the "Infernal Pact" tech. I'm not entirely certain what exactly Armageddon represents, but it's heavily implied to be related to the actions of mortals on Erebus.

 

[xienwolf]

Plus who is to say that the ritual didn't have side-effects and leave a gaping hole in the protection of Erebus that had once been conferred via Compact?

 

[TheJopa]

Plus who is to say that the ritual didn't have side-effects and leave a gaping hole in the protection of Erebus that had once been conferred via Compact?

And remember it is a 'compact' (Agreement) not 'a dictate made by the One'. Apparently gods were discussing how it should be done. What Seventh Star says: Preventing every Angel from entering, was proposed by archangel Cassiel. On the contrary there were gods and angels like Basium that wanted even more freedom to act. So they came up with a compromise- no direct acting, but angels apparently can enter, at least with help from mortals. So that is why compact 'has no enough power to stop mere angels from entering'

 

[Kael]

Yeah I always thought that Suceullus was able to do it because all the gods agreed to it. The gods will is manifest in creation. Bhall's fall was manifest in creation, meaning that the world always reflects the decisions and actions of the gods. I see her fall as literal (she did physically fall from the sky and smash through Braduk) but not intentional.

I dont know if that breaks the compact or not. It probably did, but it was over quickly and the gods certainly didn't do anything to react to it.

Agares could break the compact and send all his demons into creation. Or he can try to convert enough people to summon the demons appropriatly. He's banking on the fact that he can get people to summon them.

 

[Ur_Vile_Wedge]

But, wasn't the Godslayer supposed to be the teeth that backed up the compact? What good does it do sitting in Creation, where it can't really get to the Gods that might be breaking the compact?

 

[xienwolf]

The teeth of the Compact was that the Neutral Gods agreed to join forces against anyone who breaks the compact. I would envision the Godslayer Blade more as a symbol for Humanity (sign of good faith type thing) than an actual portion of the Compact. Which God would honestly believe that a mortal could even get within swordlength of him?

 

[Ur_Vile_Wedge]

It *did* work on Mulcarn..........


I'm just wondering actually. Mulcarn seems kind of dumb. In his shoes, the first thing I would do once I established myself in Erebus is to make absolutely certain that God killing weapons were either destroyed or somewhere that *nobody* could get them. And why didn't Sucellus go looking for the blade? Could have come in handy.........

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Isn't that what he did? Mulcarn had already found one piece of it in AoI. It was just really hard to find, and the gods were busy with each other to spend all of their time looking for it. Plus, if one had found a piece the other would probably be right there to try to steal it from him.

 

[Kael]

Mulcarn definitly isnt the most proactive of gods.

The godslayer is a manifestation of the will of the gods. The fact that it appears as a sword in creation, or humans see it as a sword, or the entire act of sticking it into the guy you want to kill is as symbolic as it is literal. It was given to men to enforce their power, the gods way of saying they agreed to limitations on their power. That mankind would be given direct control over creation, and at the begining of the Age of Magic and the Age of Rebirth humanity has that chance.

Specifics seem to imply that we are only talking about a literal view of that object or power, but thats only half of it. Maybe anyone could have reforged the sword and killed Mulcarn, maybe his death was inevitable from the moment he broke the compact and the entire episode with Kylorin was just the terms of the compact being physically reflected in creation.

I dont know. I like to think that mankind did pick itself up at that point and solve their own problem. I like Kylorin and the fact that he accomplished what a god couldn't do. So I like to think that its 50/50, some divine retribution owed and the chance for humantiy to rise up and accomplish something legendary.

Thats my take on it at least, though I dont know that it provides any of the specifics you guys are thinking about.

 

[Ur_Vile_Wedge]

That......... was profound Kael.


*needs to radically re-adjust mental processes for this*

 

[Kael]

There is supposed to be a greater metaphor behind the world of Erebus. The batle between Mulcarn and Bhall is the battle between the old generation (resistant to change) and the young generation (thats wants a revolution). The body (Aeron and the Calabim) represent carnal desire vs the spirit (Sirona and the Elohim) which are about spirituality and prioritizing the needs of the soul beyond that of the body.

The end morale is that balance is key in all of these areas. FfH has never really been about right and wrong. Fanaticism is often punished in our stories and I really like odd pairing of opposite ends of the spectrum in the D&D games and in the mod itself.

The metaphor isn't perfect by any means. But when I hear about a forest that would die if not for occasional forest fires that would sweep through it I think about that in relaitionship to the philosophy of Erebus. When I think about the argument between full revelation and discretion I think about Erebus, when I think about sacrificing personal freedom (chaos) for safety (order) I think about Erebus.

I think Erebus is a land at war not between countries, angels or gods. But between ideologies. Maybe our own world is the same.

 

[Mailbox]

I saw that you mentioned Mulcarn was the first god to fall (I think). Why did Mulcarn fall before Agares and what did he do? Is Mulcarn's hell just a frozen wasteland?

 

[Kael]

I saw that you mentioned Mulcarn was the first god to fall (I think). Why did Mulcarn fall before Agares and what did he do? Is Mulcarn's hell just a frozen wasteland?

Agares was the first god to fall. Mulcarn is said to have the highest hell, or the 1st hell depending on how you want to look at it.

 

[Ekolite]

I think that means he's essentially the least evil of the evil gods. I'm guessing that the lowest hells are Agares and Bhaals shared hell and Ceridwen (rge one that wants armageddon?)

 

[Tarquelne]

The end morale is that balance is key in all of these areas.

People tend toward hierarchies. X is more important than Y... It's the simple/easy way to think of things. But, as you say, "balance" is better. Even absent fanaticism people screw things up: Whatever X and Y are, it's almost certain that "sometimes" should be in there. Generally there are historic or practical reasons why one virtue, right, whatever was under-appreciated, used, or realized. A movement arises to fix that, and some other virtue, right, or whatever becomes under-appreciated.

And the point I wanted to get around to is:

To the above Erebus adds gods championing or making-manifest various principles. So on top of all the usual mess you get _personalities._ Egos. No wonder it's a "dark fantasy" setting.

Hmm... though I guess you might say that the gods can't do anything other than strive to make their own principle the Primary principle, and all others subordinate. Maybe even those balance-focused tree-huggers are too focused on a static solution. Maybe the mortals are the only ones really capable of eventually sorting things out.

OfTopic: It'd be interesting if a sufficiently extensive and precise moral vocabulary did allow a universally applicable hierarchy of virtues/principles.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Aye, most good things in life are opposed by other good things. There is never a choice between absolute security and total freedom (or any other dichotomy), and anyone offering either is trying to hoodwink you. Freedom and equality and safety, etc., are all important to have, and working to advance one value to the extreme will cost increasingly more of all other virtues, ala the law of diminshing marginal returns. People must think beyond stage one and facile solutions.

Off Topic: It'd be interesting if a sufficiently extensive and precise moral vocabulary did allow a universally applicable hierarchy of virtues/principles.

Well, it can be done, but not simply or in sound bites.

 

[Rex rgis of Ter]

I've worked out what most gods represent except the following, care to enlighten me?

Tali, Angel of Air
Nantosuelta, Angel of Faith
Danalin, Angel of Water