You don't need any culture in the city because the last border pop before legendary is at 2500. The GA gives 2680, so that's the full 5 tile-circle. On other speeds you only get tiles 4 away from the city.
G-Major 14
- Thread starter superslug
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You don't need any culture in the city because the last border pop before legendary is at 2500. The GA gives 2680, so that's the full 5 tile-circle. On other speeds you only get tiles 4 away from the city.
Harbourboy
Deity
Yep, using a culture bomb on a young city early in the game on Quick gives you a huge border expansion. It's worth doing just to see Hatsepshut's yellow tiles get blown away by the power of your painting / pop music / performance art / religious stautuary.
Hey! This is becoming personal!
I know you're joking, but let me explain my "nasty GS habit" comment. I'm just trying to help more people win the game. I think the GS strategy is not the best if you just want to win by 1500 AD. The jury is still out on the GS strat for getting sub 1200 AD, but I'm convinced that zero, or possibly one, GS is optimal on standard size maps. I would rather run Bureau longer and chop out some cathedrals.
Harbourboy
Deity
I agree with WastinTime. Even when I do get a really early Liberalism, it serves no practical use, because there is no point in converting to Free Speech to get an extra 100% of what is still a small culture number.
The capital benefits more from Bureaucracy than Free Speech until it builds up a decent amount of commerce. And the GP farms don't get much from Free Speech either.
So I would do what WastinTime says. Keep Bureaucracy until you're sufficiently Hermitaged / Cathedraled up then flick the Free Speech switch to crank out the 500 culture per turn in the capital which will net you 15,000 over the next 30 turns.
Simple! So how come I can never do it?
The capital benefits more from Bureaucracy than Free Speech until it builds up a decent amount of commerce. And the GP farms don't get much from Free Speech either.
So I would do what WastinTime says. Keep Bureaucracy until you're sufficiently Hermitaged / Cathedraled up then flick the Free Speech switch to crank out the 500 culture per turn in the capital which will net you 15,000 over the next 30 turns.
Simple! So how come I can never do it?
Dracandross
Warlord
Just two words: Marathon Inca.
If you have time to play 30 games you really can pull out one win to at least be in the table
. Btw got 1640 eliz on quick now. Gosh it was bad map. By the way have you thought of chancing capital after its obvious capital will become legendary. Cap gives 8 commerce so its really worth 200 hammers or so? Helped me a round or two... (haven't seen anyone mention it)
-Dracandross
Harbourboy
Deity
I wish! Being on the table is all I am after!
I'd love to know if that capital relocation idea would really work. My initial reaction would be that there just wouldn't be enough time left to get any real impact and that if you have spare hammers to build a palace, then you have spare hammers to build a cathedral, which would be more use?
I agree - I think it's 0 unless you need 1 to be first to lib. I tried 0 GS and liked the early GA, but 1st to lib would have saved me 21 turns of research (6 edu, 7 pp, 3 nat, 5 econ - stubbornly/stupidly researched it myself). I just can't see 1 GA being worth that much, or even 16 turns without econ. One other thing - I had no gold/gems in cap, had to turn research down to 70% at one point, built lib in cap late, and still only missed by 5 turns, which means it's definitely possible to be first to lib without a GS.
As for not needing any GS to just win the game I agree 100%. I didn't stop researching (or switch to Pacifism) until after 600AD and thought there was no way I was going to beat the AI launch, until I checked and saw something like 740-230-120 CPT's. Finished in 1465. Hindsight being 20/20 I definitely could have done with econ.
In my games, 1 GA has saved me an average of 20 turns of regular culture in either of my legendary cities other than the capital.
as you show yourself...2680 culture/120 cpt is 22 turns
my biggest question is whether free market is worth more than an extra artist in all of my gp farms.
as you show yourself...2680 culture/120 cpt is 22 turns
my biggest question is whether free market is worth more than an extra artist in all of my gp farms.
The cathedral, I think. But that also requires a spare religion or 6 cities and a temple in the GP farm, so it might not be an option.
If you follow WastinTime's strategy and hold out for a map where you can run 9-10 Artists in your GP Farm I think you should make the table. Note because of the health limits you want to work the most food in the least squares - so a great GP Farm is 2 of the 6F resources and 4 FP's/4F resources. That's 9 Artists with a city pop of only 14. Or for an additonal pop you can work 2 grasslands instead of a FP if you're short on those.
In an earlier post someone pointed out you also have to factor in the extra GA points you get from pacifism during the turns you save on research. In my game this would have produced an additional GA to offset the 22 turns of culture lost to the GS. So it's definitely something to consider when making the GS/GA decision.
my best GP farm had 4 FPs and 2 fish...but it took me way too long to set it up, so I only popped 7 artists and a single scientist there.
Harbourboy
Deity
Please explain how you get 740 culture per turn. I can't get more than 540 with Hermitage and two cathedrals.
Again, how do you research Nationalism in 3 turns? Is this another example of the phenomen I see so often when everyone else is playing the Easy version of the game when I am playing the Evil Tough version?
I am sorry to disagree, but that can only be true if you have 2 already legendary cities and a third one very far from legendary and doing only 120cpt. That's never the case when you get 10+ GA.
<<From now on I am talking about a 1200AD finishing game>>
The GA that are not so sorely needed as the one in your example only save 3 turns civ-wise. The GS I used in Liberalism as a test saved me 7 out of 10 turns.
Factors to take into account:
- 7 turns is better than 3 turns but...
- A turn at the end of the game is worth 1.9 turns at 1AD (or 200AD).
- GS means you might switch to Pacifism sooner.
- GS means you start working on Hermitage sooner. 7 turns of Hermitage are some 800c or 0.9 turns at the end of the game.
- No GS means you get more hammers from Bureaucracy.
So the jury is still out. My numbers seem to say that a GS is always slightly better than a GA, I'll try to prove it with a 3GS game. My numbers come from this hypothesis:
240-180-100 cpt in FS in 1AD
500-280-120 cpt in 1200AD
WastingTime, please, would you be so kind as to present your cpt figures just after revolting to FS and at the end of the game? Different numbers could mean a lot of a difference.
Once I stop researching and turn on all culture, I start estimating how long my cities will take to reach legendary at their current levels of cpt production. I count them as being worth 20-22 turns because that's how many turns it saves off of the regular rate of culture production. Sure, it doesn't save any time off the cities that are ahead of it, but since you don't win until the last one is finished, it is still speeding up the process by that many turns.
This is from memory since I'm at work (lunch break)
740 = herm + 2 cath + FS = 185 base = 8? lib, 10? herm, 3 thea, 2x2 monastaries, 5?x2 caths, 1x2 temples, 5x2 spice, 1x2 river food, 8x3 trade routes, 9x7 towns, 5x3 villages, 3x4 hamlets, 4x2 artists (pop was 20) = 171. That's pretty close. I'll look later to get an exact breakdown.
Don't worry, your game is not evil. I had to research Nationalism for 3 turns before somebody would trade it for pp. I should have noted that in the post.
EDIT: For an indication of my tech rate AD140 use the 7 turns for pp sinice I immediately switched to that once I was beaten to lib.
740 = herm + 2 cath + FS = 185 base = 8? lib, 10? herm, 3 thea, 2x2 monastaries, 5?x2 caths, 1x2 temples, 5x2 spice, 1x2 river food, 8x3 trade routes, 9x7 towns, 5x3 villages, 3x4 hamlets, 4x2 artists (pop was 20) = 171. That's pretty close. I'll look later to get an exact breakdown.
Don't worry, your game is not evil. I had to research Nationalism for 3 turns before somebody would trade it for pp. I should have noted that in the post.
EDIT: For an indication of my tech rate AD140 use the 7 turns for pp sinice I immediately switched to that once I was beaten to lib.
Well let's give it a shot:
Merc: (2TR*4C+4(artist)*3 cities*2(FS)+(2*4+4)*1.5(herm/2 cath)=90CPT
FM: 3TR*7C(conservative)*3*2+3*7*1.5=157.5CPT
difference=67.5
2680/67.5=40turns
aux GP farm rate: 67/9 = 8turns
So with the above assumptions, you need to produce +1GA for every 40 turns you run Merc, but you only get the extra GA from an aux GP farm 8 turns earlier than if you were in FM, which means it's unlikely to be useful EXCEPT it could shave 7 turns off your finish date if your 2nd to last GA spawns from an aux farm the turn before your last GA spawns from your main farm.
Any thoughts from the experts? I may be way off base. I'm not even 100% certain each addt'l GP is +67pts on this speed.
EDIT: 40 turns with an extra artist in 2 aux GP farms is only +720 GPP. Is that enough at this stage for an extra GA? With 3 aux farms though it seems worth it, but then you should switch to FM after they've all spawned, unless you're gonna play 40 more turns.
If my above assumptions are wrong, somebody should be able to correct and I think the logic holds. Might change the result though, for sure.
my internal trade routes never give me 4 commerce, nor did my external ones ever give me 7....its usually more like 2 and 4/5.
I got 60cpt using 2 commerce for internal trade routes and 90 cpt for 4 commerce external routes.
That gives only a difference of 30 cpt, which gives me 89.3 turns in which to produce +1 GA. I'm fairly sure I could do that, so I think that Merc is a better option for me.
I got 60cpt using 2 commerce for internal trade routes and 90 cpt for 4 commerce external routes.
That gives only a difference of 30 cpt, which gives me 89.3 turns in which to produce +1 GA. I'm fairly sure I could do that, so I think that Merc is a better option for me.
In my latest game with zero GS, using Saladin! (no financial)
First to Liber 230 AD, traded for Corporation in 560 AD.
At 230 AD (free sp) cpt ( 228 - 74 - 52)
At 1000 AD CPT (724 - 208 - 168)
EDIT: (724 is 161 base with Herm and 3 cathedrals)
1235 AD finish with only 14 GAs.
Yes, I had banana again, in my capitol.
Saladin has at least a dozen advantages over Liz. I'd like to see more people trying him out. It solves a lot of problems related to civic changes and you can play a lot of strategic games with civics near the end.
I played against all the music-lovers (including Liz), so I got Lit/Music pretty early and didn't have to research drama myself. I did do Philo myself though.
I didn't have rice, but most other health except seafood...and even got +4 from the Grocer.
Founded Bud, Conf, and hindu spread early. No others though. I did not have marble at all, and I had to trade to get Copper for 10 turns.
First to Liber 230 AD, traded for Corporation in 560 AD.
At 230 AD (free sp) cpt ( 228 - 74 - 52)
At 1000 AD CPT (724 - 208 - 168)
EDIT: (724 is 161 base with Herm and 3 cathedrals)
1235 AD finish with only 14 GAs.
Yes, I had banana again, in my capitol.
Saladin has at least a dozen advantages over Liz. I'd like to see more people trying him out. It solves a lot of problems related to civic changes and you can play a lot of strategic games with civics near the end.
I played against all the music-lovers (including Liz), so I got Lit/Music pretty early and didn't have to research drama myself. I did do Philo myself though.
I didn't have rice, but most other health except seafood...and even got +4 from the Grocer.
Founded Bud, Conf, and hindu spread early. No others though. I did not have marble at all, and I had to trade to get Copper for 10 turns.
Harbourboy
Deity
33rd time lucky. Went for GP farms in every single city except capital.
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