[BTS] G-Major 173 - Aztecs, Warlord, Cultural - Deadline October 27th 2020

[Pangaea]

I should get t161 or 162 lib without bulbs. Only GP used so far was for state religion shrine. I think saving them for bombs is better if possible. Getting FS earlier than that wouldn't make much of a difference as base culture is still so low.

That's a very early Lib date, especially without any bulbs. Got it a little later than that in my first game (see turns above), where I self-teched Philo, but bulbed into Edu (kept getting GProphets).

Think you are right in that approach, though. As long as those GSs can be turned into GAs instead, it would improve the date. Base-culture-wise I'd like to build Stonehenge and suchlike early on, but it can really ruin those great people, and ultimately postpone the win. Perhaps you just need a bit of luck with that. Maybe the Shrine is worth it though, or would you still prefer a GA there? @iggymnrr makes a good point about all the doubling effects in fairness, I have simply viewed a GProphet as not ideal, apart from maybe one for a GAge. He seems to have more experience with low-difficulty games, so I suppose he has the data to know it works well.

With a Lib date like that, it sounds like you have a very good game going, despite the poor map and capital.

Had another go with MapFinder last night, after changing the rules rather a lot. May have made them too strict. The game generated 1400 maps, and only 39 were saved. Before it used to be around 10%.

 

[elitetroops]

Base-culture-wise I'd like to build Stonehenge and suchlike early on, but it can really ruin those great people, and ultimately postpone the win.

Depends on the location mostly. It should be rare to find three good legendary spots that all also will be able to produce Great Artists. Usually one will be lower on food, place SH there. I built SH and Oracle in the same city and it has slowly been producing those GPP. Second GP from there is out soon and will be used to start GA when time comes. After that it shouldn't be able to compete with the stronger GP farms.

 

[iggymnrr]

Have a game going now and got to free speech T189, 9 turns faster than previously. AI still got to Code of Laws first.

 

[Pangaea]

Huh.

Spoiler :

Didn't even notice (no log window up). Moved the scout. Hmm, don't see any huts that way either. Wait, what is this? I can move another unit this turn? Woooot!

Kinda forces me into not going for early religions this time, but I had wanted to try it anyway. The downside to that, unless you happen to get the correct capital with a religion in it early, is that it won't autospread to you and throughout the cities for a long time, postponing temples and the like. But like in normal games, maybe it is still the stronger move. So Agri it is. At least the worker can road a little. Nice with the elephant shadow-pop too, and some more riverside than it looked like initially. 6 cottages isn't a ton, but it may suffice.

 

[iggymnrr]

^Nice start. If the goal is to get both religions put a couple of turns into polytheism then switch to meditation. The AI may switch at meditation. But you will have a head start on polytheism. And get that too.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

put a couple of turns into polytheism then switch to meditation. The AI may switch at meditation.

What's the logic with this?

 

[Pangaea]

The game has gone well so far, 6 cities in 2300BC (3 captured, 2 settled, no free settlers), but I'm ambivalent about the map. Cows, cows everywhere, but no quality food (except my capital). Little seafood from what I can tell so far. Lots of bananas, but those can't be worked for a while, and of course are stuck in the jungle. Hoped de Gaulle's Paris would be a nice GP Farm as it was coastal, but it only has crabs + brown cow. Same with Ramesses in the far south. Clam + brown cow.

Think these three will have to be the legendaries, so most likely three cottage cities. Would have liked more green river tiles, though.

Spoiler :

This one is just settled, after much deliberation about whether I should split up the food. But can't see any other decent GP Farm spots, so decided this will probably have to be it.

Spoiler :

It could be a pretty nice legendary city, but given lack of alternative GP Farms, I'm thinking it's best to develop it in that direction. Not great food, despite 3 sources, but all those grasslands can be farmed too. Should be able to work a lot of artists once it's size 10+. And if going with 3 cottages cities, I won't have to worry about academies and the likes here. Just National Epic plus the basics.

No religions unfortunately, because I went for worker techs instead this time. The capital is therefore quite well developed, although it was annoying that a random event destroyed the Ivory camp. Nice that BFC copper popped up too, I hoped the "mystery" tile would hold a surprise. Both Hinduism and Buddhism is on the continent though (Gandhi and Mansa).

Moving warriors towards Gandhi now, but only have 6 left, which may not be enough, certainly not if he gets another warrior there, or Cthulu forbid, an archer. Mansa has improved marble in his capital, but was working on BW before I lost view on him, so the Oracle should be okay (have Math, but lack CoL). Since it's still pretty early, think I'll try to grab Judaism from Monotheism. It's available for now, and went around T80 in the previous games. If Gandhi is going for that one too, he'll get there first, though.

 

[iggymnrr]

Re: put a couple of turns into polytheism.

What's the logic with this?

Cities grow. The player can win either race to a religion but at meditation an AI may switch to polytheism with a city bigger and better than at the start. A couple turns of research at the beginning counters this.

Anyways debating about finishing my game now. It's at the stage where a person wants to put ice in a glass and lace it with a beverage ... And sip every time a GA is borne.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

at meditation an AI may switch to polytheism with a city bigger and better than at the start

What would make them switch, you mean when Buddhism is founded?

 

[Pangaea]

Very nice event.

 

[iggymnrr]

@Noble Zarkon Yes. I think I've seen them switch when Buddhism has been founded. At any rate, it doesn't cost to put a couple of turns into polytheism since both religions will get teched. (No mystic civs in the game.)

Which one of these cities in the screenshot is the commerce city? I'm done with this attempt as best case is 1200 AD. Ironically I can't produce GAs faster than 6 turns now. So even if I had all 3 non-GAs back (education bulb + 3rd golden age) I can do no better than 1140 AD. Three great artists can't do what one city can do in 6 turns.

I actually lost a city briefly to Churchill but got it back quickly. All 6 AIs disappeared early with the toughest unit being a skirmisher. The rest were warriors.

Here's the two mentioned cities:

 

[elitetroops]

@iggymnrr if you plan to take out all AI early you should put Mansa on the other continent. Same for all the AI that start with hunting and will reach archery sooner, plus that gives you more huts. Also, I still am convinced it's a mistake to found the early religions when you can take them from the AI. I put all the required AI on the other continent and shared mine with Gandhi, Asoka, Isabella, Justin, Hatty and Ramesses. There's no chance any of the no myst civs on the other continent beats this bunch to the first two religions, except maybe in the very unlucky event someone pops myst like t1. Also no hunting AI on my continent. Capturing the religions instead of founding them also has the advantage that you'll get free border pops in two captured capitals, which usually are good cities that need them.

That's a nice event @Pangaea! I just got my first positive event, scout revealed all oil. That's 1 extra hammer each in two cities! At least it beats all the slave revolts and other BS events destroying improvements or costing me gold I've had so far.

 

[iggymnrr]

Same for all the AI that start with hunting and will reach archery sooner

Statistics show AI casualties to have been 9 warriors and 1 skirmisher (whipped). Horse was needed for Lincoln and Mansa to prevent/contain whipping as they were in slavery. That was only 10 defenders for 6 cities.

 

[iggymnrr]

I put all the required AI on the other continent and shared mine with Gandhi, Asoka, Isabella, Justin, Hatty and Ramesses.

I hadn't thought of this. I think I set mine up alphabetically so it should easy to change. Makes me think mining->polytheism. Possibly fishing can be tackled before polytheism too.

 

[iggymnrr]

I did some tests trying to get AIs to spawn in one hemisphere or the other. One set seemed reliable but the counter point wasn't consistent.

Non-hunting civs start with a warrior set to explore. Do hunting civs 2nd warrior builds get set to explore to match this? Seems like Pericles was a warrior light last game and yet another instance of a warrior that wasn't there.

 

[elitetroops]

It's not consistent, no. About 70-80% of the time it works. Might lead to some more discarded maps, but I think it's worth it. Avoiding Stalin's AGG warriors is also great.

The initial unit has the exploring script, first warrior they build should be set on city defense. Typically they'd have it out by t11 or earlier, maybe it can be later with some starts. Those exploring warriors are actually annoying. Unlike on higher levels I actually have to check for enemy units near my cities before worker stealing.

 

[iggymnrr]

Stalin? Every attempt so far he's been gone turn 40. Adding expansive civs might be more desirable as it might not be necessary to wait until turn 40 to get city+worker. If scouting shows them working a brown hill ...a worker will be out shortly. On lower levels it takes too long for the AI to get a worker or even grow. But popped settlers would get settled around turn 40 anyways. Hut odds for settlers and workers are double so city+worker isn't a problem.

The main reason for going after religions is that they don't pop from huts but other techs will. There's precious little point to putting 10 turns into agriculture only for it to pop on turn 11. On the other hand if mining were out of the way ...bronze working would be open.

As to what unit to use, my last attempt had these results:

T38: Stalin dead, city+worker
T40: Washington dead, city+worker
T56: Pericles dead, city+worker
T67: Churchill dead, city+worker (7 warriors+scout v 3 warriors -- 7v2.)
T72: Lincoln dead, city+worker+2 fishing boats)
Tlater: Mansa dead, city+worker+3 fishing boats. (2 warriors defending but borders had popped.)

 

[elitetroops]

Submitted an 835AD victory, hope it's accepted. (Edit: it is!)

6 cathedrals in all cities. After I got SH fail gold 1625BC I only dropped slider for a few turns before Music. Other than that kept it up at all times with failgold, running about -150gpt most of the late BCs. During this time I also spent about 4k gold rush buying cathedrals. Later in the golden age I spent a couple thousand more buying the 6th cathedrals.

Only 12 Great Artists. Other GP was one Prophet for shrine, a GM to start 1st GA and a Prophet to continue GA together with Economics Merchant. Was debating if I even should go for the 2GP Golden Age, but since one of them was free and I could squeeze the second out of my already massively polluted SH+Oracle GP pool by adding in TGL, a GP pool that otherwise never would have been used to produce any great person, it felt almost free.

In general I'd say the key here is to get an explosive start, then focus on the essentials. Get cottages up around leggy cities asap and work them every turn (i kept working cottages over gems most of the BCs). Helper cities very necessary. Other cities can stay small and whip missionaries/temples into failgold. Every single forest should be chopped into failgold, except leggy city forests that can go into cathedrals or wonders. I built 3 sacrificial altars in 4 food cities that eventually became pop 18 GP farms. Other cities don't need them. I only built 2 libraries early, third one was bought in 3rd leggy city when all cathedrals were up and there was no other 2 culture buildings left to buy. Not sure if even those early libraries were worth it, quite an expensive early investment.

Things that could have been done better:

• Had 4 turns left of GA at the end, should have started it earlier but had no clear picture of how long the game would last.

• Somehow I completely miscalculated when I put NE in cap. Had 2 stronger GP farms that would have gained more from it.

• Completely overlooked AP hammers. Didn't think of them until after lib and drama, then I quickly teched Theo and chopped out AP by 5BC. 20 turns earlier AP would have helped cathedral construction a lot!

• The failed first war against Gandhi ended up costing me a ton. Not only did it delay the capture of his cap (one of my main GP farms) by 12 turns but it also allowed him to settle another hill city 3 tiles away. Since it had no resources but two archers I figured I'll just leave it. Didn't consider tile culture mechanics would give him a lot of the BFC of his former cap when he eventually reached 40% culture. Was quite silly that his 40% pop 1 city stole several inner ring tiles from my 60% pop 15 city. By then he had 3 archers and an axe. Couldn't afford the units to take it at that time, so had to wait to reclaim the tiles. Probably wasn't that many turns, but felt like an eternity.

• Neglected early exploring workboat and settled island for offshore trade routes in first location that looked half decent, resulting in a mostly useless city. There would have been a much better triple fish location available, but that one was only revealed much later.

• Timings off in general as I had no clue when the game was about to end.

Based on the late culture and GP situation I'd say victory would have been 4-5 turns earlier if I hadn't lost those 4 chariots against Gandhi's archer and also started golden age 8-10 turns earlier.

Legendary cities at their peak:

Capital:

Spoiler :

Good enough late game, annoying early with 4 food that cannot possibly be shared. Good hammers in Bureau to build cathedrals.

In case you wonder about the +22 next to Christian Monastery, it was thanks to this nice event:

Spoiler :

It was an immediate +8 culture to Monastery as it already doubled by then.

Constantinople:

Spoiler :

This one really would have needed a SE helper city. Growing onto hills for cathedral production was very slow when I also had to keep working those cottages. Some slave revolts killing off population didn't help either.

It was completely forested though, which did help a lot allowing early SH+Oracle and a quite early SoZ.

Tlaxcala:

Spoiler :

Super slow to develop, was all covered by jungle. Two helper cities developed all the cottages while this city focused on growth and hammers. Settling with food only in second ring was very questionable, but I felt it really needed all those hills to build cathedrals as it had no forests and low food.

 

[Pangaea]

Submitted an 835AD victory, hope it's accepted. (Edit: it is!)

Been playing as well, and was going to report that things looked pretty good at turn 150. But err... that isn't a human date Not a chance in hell I can compete with that, but hopefully this game can beat my 1220AD one, and maybe even the previous top spot of 1130AD. I find it so hard to tell early on. But I've got out some cathedrals, spread the religions decently, and got up all the major wonders (except Taj). Got five religions, and wanted to try to get up +250% buildings. Hadn't planned for a 6th. Would you say that is worth it? High missionary failure chance from what I recall, and 450 is a fair bit (or 5-pop whips).

 

[elitetroops]

I hadn't planned for 6th either, which is why I didn't even consider Theo earlier. When I got it and it founded in island city while galley was almost 10 turns away, I still didn't plan to spread it. Then as I finally got it to Madrid, a nice high hammer city, I noticed it's only a few turns to build monastery and then 1-2 turns/missionary, so I figured I could get at least one more cathedral in Constantinople, cathedrals were about 7 turn builds there. Then Madrid kept building more until I had it in 9 cities. Meanwhile I had been chopping all remaining forests into the Paya and once it was done I switched back to US to buy the last two cathedrals.

I think the last one to complete was in cap 490AD. That gave it 23 turns of about 85-90 extra culture/turn. About 2k total. As it turns out cap timed very badly and ended game at 79k culture, the extra culture from cathedral didn't matter. But it didn't slow it down either as I didn't do any changes to tiles/specialists worked in order to build it. Kept chugging along as usual and bought it with gold. Can't think of any way that gold could have been spent to speed it up further. The 6th cathedrals in the other two cities did shave a turn off.