G-Major 29

I am rusty. A very important bit of early strategy is this:
Your first Worker must travel with your first built settler.
I'll try not to forget again.

I´ve seen this advice before. I can see that it is sound advice. It´s just that it is always so tempting to do one more thing, and one more thing, and one more thing at city 1 before sending him (or her) off. I need to be more disciplined.
 
Diplomatic defeat to Gandhi, 1620

Start: Wheat, 2FP, Plains Hill, Cow
Alpha 1800 BC
CS 400 BC
Lib 225 AD (lost by 1 turn to Gandhi)
No world wonders
2GS (Philo,Edu) 7 GA
1 Early Religion Spread, two more at 940Ad and 1249 AD
5 Cats built + Hermitage

I fell short by around 30 turns again.
 
The way libraries work vis-a-vis specialists has been puzzling me for a while. In my last game I built a library in my capital around 1400 BC and I would have liked to run specialists straight-away. However, for some reason, I was unable to run specialists until around 350 BC. Does anyone have any idea why this should be?
 
The concensus appears to be that the optimal number of GS for this challenge is 2-3 to pop philo and edu.

What is the best way to get these GSs? At present, I aim to run 2 scientists in my capital city (when I am allowed :mad:) as soon as possible. I don´t normally switch to Caste System until I get buro, when I might run 3. I don´t usually run scientists in other cities.

Is this "correct"? Is there a better way of doing this?
 
At present, I don´t normally get Music until after Liberalism when I usually get it in a trade.

However, it occurs to me that this might be a problem since it would be better if some cats were in place when switching to FS after lib.

However, when I´ve tried researching Music earlier, my progress to Lib is slowed.

I´ll probably try for music first in my next game (since I seem to be losing out to lib anyway), but I´d be interested to know how other people actually get hold of Music.
 
At present, I don´t normally get Music until after Liberalism when I usually get it in a trade.

However, it occurs to me that this might be a problem since it would be better if some cats were in place when switching to FS after lib.

However, when I´ve tried researching Music earlier, my progress to Lib is slowed.

I´ll probably try for music first in my next game (since I seem to be losing out to lib anyway), but I´d be interested to know how other people actually get hold of Music.

If it were available at CS, I would use that, but it's usually not. Next I try to manipulate paper for it - trade paper to one AI (not Mansa) for any other tech the civ who will trade Music doesn't have. Next turn trade for music. Or paper+gold. Just don't do it until you are almost done education. Your research times don't allow self-researching it - you still need to finish lib ~250AD if you go for Music. Since you will have to research lit or drama too, you won't be 1st to Lib and music unless you figure out a way to increase your research rate to make up for the extra turns.

Diplomatic defeat to Gandhi, 1620

Start: Wheat, 2FP, Plains Hill, Cow
Alpha 1800 BC
CS 400 BC
Lib 225 AD (lost by 1 turn to Gandhi)
No world wonders
2GS (Philo,Edu) 7 GA
1 Early Religion Spread, two more at 940Ad and 1249 AD
5 Cats built + Hermitage

I fell short by around 30 turns again.

1) Stop using Ghandi. Yes, he rarely DOW's, but he messes things up by building UN early (even if he doesn't win, he might call for a vote on emancipation :eek: and kill your GP farm) and researching alpha early.

2) You are not popping enough great people. You should aim to pop at least 14 by 1600AD. Heck you need at least 10 GA to bomb the GP farm alone by 16xx. Either you are founding your GP farm too late, building something other than gran, lib, NE, not managing it properly (after NE work only 4:food:+ tiles and artists) or not running pacifism early enough.
 
This game started out good; many things went wrong, wasted time, hammers, food and commerce, but still pulled out a nice BTS Win.

Summary: Alphabet t46 (BC 2160), Music t89 (BC 650), Civil Service t111 (traded BC 100), Philosophy t110 (BC 125), Liberalism t139 (AD 580).

Player: Elizabeth (Philosophical & Financial)

Opponents: Darius I, Roosevelt, Lincoln and Sitting Bull. They are all very peaceful, and have neither Mining or Mysticism starting Technologies.

Start: River Sugar, River Gems, Gems, Corn; RP Hill, RG Hill, 6 RG, 1 P, 1 Lake, 6 G (1 with Horses), and about 6 Forests.

Got Bronze Working from a Hut on turn 7. Could have done an extra early Axe rush ... but I wanted a peaceful win.

Completed first Worker on turn 12.

Researched: Agriculture t9, Wheel t18, Pottery t24, Writing t31, Alphabet t46, Aesthetics t58, Polytheism t61, Literature t67, Drama t77 (should have skipped), Music t89; Masonry t90 (everyone had it, but no one would trade it), Theology (first) t101, Philosophy t110, Paper t118, Education t131, (Darius I completes Liberalism t133), Liberalism t139 (AD 580), Printing Press t151; 40% of Nationalism t155; 43% of Constitution t160; Democracy t172; (Res 100 -> Res 20); Guilds t187; (Res 20 -> Res 00); Banking t230; Gunpowder (nearly completed).

Tech. trades: Sailing for Writing, Hunting for Writing, Archery for Writing, Iron Working for Alphabet, and Mysticism + Animal Husbandry for Alphabet on t47; Priesthood for Polytheism t61; Mathematics for Aesthetics t77; Mediation + Monotheism for Aesthetics t90; Monarchy for Drama t96, Code of Laws + 20G for Literature + Drama t98; Horseback Riding for Aesthetics + 30G (crazy?) t101; Calendar + 40G for Theology; Metal Casting for Theology + 40G t104; 70G for Aesthetics t110; Civil Service + 50G for Philosophy + Drama t111; Machinery for Philosophy + 120G (For Macemen?) t111; Feudalism + Compass + Construction + WM + 70G for Education t133; WM + 180G for Compass t136; 60% of Nationalism + WM + 120G for Education t155; 57% of Constitution + 15G for Liberalism t160;

Great Scientist born & creates Academy t59.

Demands: Sitting Bull demanded Iron Working & got it t53; Darius I demanded conversion to Confucianism & got it (probably war otherwise) t142;

Early Improvements: Corn Farm t16, R Gems Mine t21.

Cities Built: York Cultural t34 (built in 10t; no chopping), Nottingham Cultural (should have been work horse city), Hastings Working City (should have been cultural).

Capital: Pop rushed Library t43, National Epic t67-t91; The Sistine Chapel t104-t127; Hermitage t177-t188.

Nottingham: The Parthenon t109-failed.

Cathedrals: Nottingham Confucian t176-t185, Buddhist, Christian & Hindu; York Confucian t176-t185; Buddhist, Christian, Jewish & Hindu t231; London (Hermitage) only Jewish.

Culture Cities built all Monasteries and Temples with later ones gold rushed.

Civics: Slavery (just before 2nd city) t33; Bureaucracy + Pacifism t111; Universal Suffrage t172;

Head Aches: Lincoln built The Apostolic Palace t111; Darius I built UN t240.

State Religion Changes: Judaism -> Confucianism -> Buddhism: To take advantage of The Sistine Chapel's cultural bonus for religious buildings, I converted to Judaism when my two neighbors (Darius I and Sitting Bull) were Jewish. Then Darius I switches to Confucianism and when he also insists that I also do so, I must comply. Finally, Lincoln puts forward a Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory and comes close to winning. At that point, I decide it is best to convert to his religion, Buddhism, to become a full member and with others put a stop to his dreams of victory. For insurance, I converted the unconverted cities of Roosevelt and Sitting Bull (who aren't very pleased with Lincoln) to Buddhism.

Hope this helps someone with some of the details of a late win.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Tried two more games yesterday. First one was not going so well and was won in 1590, second one felt really great but I still didnt finish before 1515.
Missed tach mahal with 1 turn and didnt have MoM so that was kinda bad but otherwise I dunno, I really thought I would beat my best win with that second game but I failed.

Really annoying though:
375 AD XXX (Great engineer) Born for Ghandi.

400 AD Ghandis golden age has started
400 AD Ghandi has completed Tach Mahal - I am one turn away :(
 
At present, I don´t normally get Music until after Liberalism when I usually get it in a trade.

However, it occurs to me that this might be a problem since it would be better if some cats were in place when switching to FS after lib.

However, when I´ve tried researching Music earlier, my progress to Lib is slowed.

I´ll probably try for music first in my next game (since I seem to be losing out to lib anyway), but I´d be interested to know how other people actually get hold of Music.

If you are playing BTS, I would rush Music. You get a free GA for being first to discover and you can build the Sistine Chapel (+5 culture per religious building and +2 culture per specialist).
 
If it were available at CS, I would use that, but it's usually not. Next I try to manipulate paper for it - trade paper to one AI (not Mansa) for any other tech the civ who will trade Music doesn't have. Next turn trade for music. Or paper+gold. Just don't do it until you are almost done education. Your research times don't allow self-researching it - you still need to finish lib ~250AD if you go for Music.

I have played a game subsequent to this post, and I did use this approach successfully to trade for music a little earlier than usual, so thanks for that tip.
 
Stop using Ghandi. Yes, he rarely DOW's, but he messes things up by building UN early (even if he doesn't win, he might call for a vote on emancipation :eek: and kill your GP farm) and researching alpha early.

Well, I subbed Asoka for Gandhi in my next game. Result? Space race loss to Asoka in 1695. Doh!
 
You are not popping enough great people. You should aim to pop at least 14 by 1600AD. Heck you need at least 10 GA to bomb the GP farm alone by 16xx. Either you are founding your GP farm too late, building something other than gran, lib, NE, not managing it properly (after NE work only 4:food:+ tiles and artists) or not running pacifism early enough.

Can you pop 14 by 1600, even if you don´t have the Parthenon?

I must confess that I am building an aquaduct in the GP farm. I´ll try to avoid this in the next game.

I also build temples. Presumably this is OK; otherwise I´d have to found a fifth city to get the 2 cats per religion.

I´m switching to pacifism when I have researched lib. I only adopt a state religion though when all but one of my opponents have gone to free religion. (Though in my last game Cyrus asked me to adopt Buddhism which I duly did, and then forgot to switch back to no religion. No apparent harm came of it).

I also have to confess that I am not using the GP farm as a legendary city. My logic is that at the point that you are going to use the GA bombs, the third legendary city should be the one that has the most culture points. If you develop a third cultural city apart from the GP farm, it always has more cultural points than the GP farm. The only potential flaw in this line of reasoning is that if you have three "proper" legendary cities rather than 2 + a GP farm, you have to share the available cats between three cities rather than two, so each one doesn´t get as many. Hmmm. Maybe that is quite significant?
 
This game started out good; many things went wrong, wasted time, hammers, food and commerce, but still pulled out a nice BTS Win.

Summary: Alphabet t46 (BC 2160), Music t89 (BC 650), Civil Service t111 (traded BC 100), Philosophy t110 (BC 125), Liberalism t139 (AD 580).

Player: Elizabeth (Philosophical & Financial)

Opponents: Darius I, Roosevelt, Lincoln and Sitting Bull. They are all very peaceful, and have neither Mining or Mysticism starting Technologies.

Start: River Sugar, River Gems, Gems, Corn; RP Hill, RG Hill, 6 RG, 1 P, 1 Lake, 6 G (1 with Horses), and about 6 Forests.

Got Bronze Working from a Hut on turn 7. Could have done an extra early Axe rush ... but I wanted a peaceful win.

Completed first Worker on turn 12.

Researched: Agriculture t9, Wheel t18, Pottery t24, Writing t31, Alphabet t46, Aesthetics t58, Polytheism t61, Literature t67, Drama t77 (should have skipped), Music t89; Masonry t90 (everyone had it, but no one would trade it), Theology (first) t101, Philosophy t110, Paper t118, Education t131, (Darius I completes Liberalism t133), Liberalism t139 (AD 580), Printing Press t151; 40% of Nationalism t155; 43% of Constitution t160; Democracy t172; (Res 100 -> Res 20); Guilds t187; (Res 20 -> Res 00); Banking t230; Gunpowder (nearly completed).

Tech. trades: Sailing for Writing, Hunting for Writing, Archery for Writing, Iron Working for Alphabet, and Mysticism + Animal Husbandry for Alphabet on t47; Priesthood for Polytheism t61; Mathematics for Aesthetics t77; Mediation + Monotheism for Aesthetics t90; Monarchy for Drama t96, Code of Laws + 20G for Literature + Drama t98; Horseback Riding for Aesthetics + 30G (crazy?) t101; Calendar + 40G for Theology; Metal Casting for Theology + 40G t104; 70G for Aesthetics t110; Civil Service + 50G for Philosophy + Drama t111; Machinery for Philosophy + 120G (For Macemen?) t111; Feudalism + Compass + Construction + WM + 70G for Education t133; WM + 180G for Compass t136; 60% of Nationalism + WM + 120G for Education t155; 57% of Constitution + 15G for Liberalism t160;

Great Scientist born & creates Academy t59.

Demands: Sitting Bull demanded Iron Working & got it t53; Darius I demanded conversion to Confucianism & got it (probably war otherwise) t142;

Early Improvements: Corn Farm t16, R Gems Mine t21.

Cities Built: York Cultural t34 (built in 10t; no chopping), Nottingham Cultural (should have been work horse city), Hastings Working City (should have been cultural).

Capital: Pop rushed Library t43, National Epic t67-t91; The Sistine Chapel t104-t127; Hermitage t177-t188.

Nottingham: The Parthenon t109-failed.

Cathedrals: Nottingham Confucian t176-t185, Buddhist, Christian & Hindu; York Confucian t176-t185; Buddhist, Christian, Jewish & Hindu t231; London (Hermitage) only Jewish.

Culture Cities built all Monasteries and Temples with later ones gold rushed.

Civics: Slavery (just before 2nd city) t33; Bureaucracy + Pacifism t111; Universal Suffrage t172;

Head Aches: Lincoln built The Apostolic Palace t111; Darius I built UN t240.

State Religion Changes: Judaism -> Confucianism -> Buddhism: To take advantage of The Sistine Chapel's cultural bonus for religious buildings, I converted to Judaism when my two neighbors (Darius I and Sitting Bull) were Jewish. Then Darius I switches to Confucianism and when he also insists that I also do so, I must comply. Finally, Lincoln puts forward a Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory and comes close to winning. At that point, I decide it is best to convert to his religion, Buddhism, to become a full member and with others put a stop to his dreams of victory. For insurance, I converted the unconverted cities of Roosevelt and Sitting Bull (who aren't very pleased with Lincoln) to Buddhism.

Hope this helps someone with some of the details of a late win.

Sun Tzu Wu

Bit thin on detail that write-up. I mean, what did you have for breakfast? Or is that classified? ;)
 
If you are playing BTS, I would rush Music. You get a free GA for being first to discover and you can build the Sistine Chapel (+5 culture per religious building and +2 culture per specialist).

I do have BTS, but I am playing vanilla.

Well, you might think that since my performance on this Gauntlet is an unmitigated tale of woe, I should switch to BTS and try that.

I have 2 CD/DVDs on my computer; unfortunately, following a rather unnerving screeching sound, a loud bang, and copious amounts of smoke, one of the drives stopped working. With my copy of BTS inside. I have yet to disassemble my PC to extract it. So I am afraid that I will have to perservere with Vanilla.
 
Space race loss to Asoka 1695

Civ: Elizabeth
Opps: Asoka, Cyrus, Hatty, Mansa
Start: Wheat, Plains Hill, 4 FP.
Alpha 1940 BC, CS 325 BC, Lib 400 AD. Lost by about 8 turns (200AD).
No world wonders.
2GS (Philo, Edu). c 8 GA.

4 religions spread early, and a couple more late on. I was building religious buildings of one sort or another until the very end.

I was probably c 30 turns off a victory still.

BTW. I am running 100% science or culture most of the time now, so that particular problem has been resolved.
 
Can you pop 14 by 1600, even if you don´t have the Parthenon?

I must confess that I am building an aquaduct in the GP farm. I´ll try to avoid this in the next game.

I also build temples. Presumably this is OK; otherwise I´d have to found a fifth city to get the 2 cats per religion.

I´m switching to pacifism when I have researched lib. I only adopt a state religion though when all but one of my opponents have gone to free religion. (Though in my last game Cyrus asked me to adopt Buddhism which I duly did, and then forgot to switch back to no religion. No apparent harm came of it).

I also have to confess that I am not using the GP farm as a legendary city. My logic is that at the point that you are going to use the GA bombs, the third legendary city should be the one that has the most culture points. If you develop a third cultural city apart from the GP farm, it always has more cultural points than the GP farm. The only potential flaw in this line of reasoning is that if you have three "proper" legendary cities rather than 2 + a GP farm, you have to share the available cats between three cities rather than two, so each one doesn´t get as many. Hmmm. Maybe that is quite significant?

Yes - in my 1610 game I built academy, settled 2 GA's, bombed 10 in the GP farm and 1 in the second city. That's 14. I did not build the parthenon. I did have a good aux GP Farm though (grass sheep, corn, 2fp).

Slowbuilding the aqueduct is ok. If you are at 2:yuck: sending 1 artist to the mines is ok as long as it cuts the aqueduct build time in half or more.

Slowbuilding temples is ok, building them before NE or maybe pacifism is ok, and if you're spiritual it's ok. Otherwise you should have a fifth city to do this.

You must take a religion earlier. You need the benefit or OR/Pacifism asap. Mostly pacifism.

By 1600AD your GP farm should have built 10k:culture:, so it needs 10 GA bombs to go legendary. Say that you managed to pop 14 GA's by 1600 and you are following your strategy of not making the GP farm legendary. Look at one of your old saves around 1600. Excluding any earlier bombs or the estimated effect of any settled artists, are 14 bombs spread around your 3 cities enough to get them legendary? If not you need to do something different.
 
Space race loss to Asoka 1695

Note my recent win at AD 1715. None of my opponents had more than one space ship part built when I won (as I recall). I was more worried about the UN Diplomatic Victory. Don't use Asoka; see below for the reason.

Civ: Elizabeth

Great choice, others include Gandhi (Fast Workers & cheap Temples), ...

Opps: Asoka, Cyrus, Hatty, Mansa

Four opponents is great; plenty of space for everyone on a single landmass map with optional seas (You want seas for Elizabeth's early Fishing).

For this gauntlet, I decided that opponents must be peaceful (rather obvious), but should also _not_ possess either Mining or Mysticism as starting Technologies. Civilizations that possess Mining will be a able to built mines very early and research Bronze Working very early. Civilizations that possess Mysticism will be a able to research Religious Technologies very early. It would nice to be first to at least one of Code of Laws (Confucianism), Theology (Christianity) or Philosophy (Taoism). A Leader may also _not_ be Creative, since that allows it to expand too quickly and without any effort.

My recommendations based on the above rules are: Darius I, Hammurabi, Lincoln, Roosevelt, Sitting Bull, and Washington.

Asoka: Also don't pick an opponent with the best unique unit (Fast Worker) and the only one that is effective in times of peace (which we hope lasts the entire game).

Cyrus: I know some people think Cyrus is peaceful, but I don't. In my opinion, he is more prone to attack than most other Leaders.

Hatsheput: I can't really say much against Hatshepsut, except she violates my rule against Creative opponents.

Mansa Musa: Some people say he is required to help the Player research fast enough at Deity level. However, other Leaders may be almost as good and he violates my rule against having Mining as a starting Technology.

Start: Wheat, Plains Hill, 4 FP.

Food, Food, Food, Food, Food is the way to grow fast and win fast. Keeping the # of Flood Plains down to 4 helps keep the Health penalty to a manageable level (4 x 0.4 = 1.6 Unhealthiness).

Are you settling on the Plains Hill for the extra Hammer? In any case, you may want more Hammers than a single Plains Hill can provide.

You need more initial Commerce such as at least one Gems.

Alpha 1940 BC, CS 325 BC, Lib 400 AD. Lost by about 8 turns (200AD).

This is a good tech. rate, unless you are skipping Music. In any case, it could be quicker, but should be OK.

No world wonders.

You should try to build The Sistine Chapel in your most Hammer rich city. For BTS, it is clearly the most important World Wonder to build for a Cultural win.

The Parthenon is the obvious best second choice, since it can help you get up to 20% more GP out in the same amount of time.

The Oracle would be a third choice for its free Technology which could be as good as Civil Service at Deity level. Free Education is probably impossible.
Build it in a High Hammer city that will never run Specialists to reduce its chances of generating a Great Prophet. If a Great Prophet is generated, use it to bulb Theology or Philosophy.

The Pyramids would be fourth. Use it to run early Representation and when there are a few Towns, Universal Suffrage. I've always been attacked after completing The Pyramids for a Cultural Victory at Deity level, so I can't recommend it. Use the Great Engineer generated to build The Sistine Chapel.

Any other World Wonder that generates Great Artists would be good for the base Culture as well as producing much needed GA GP points.

2GS (Philo, Edu). c 8 GA.

You must not be running enough Artists in your Great Artist farms

I prefer 1 GS for building a very early Academy in the Capital.

0-2 GS bulbings sounds OK.

4 religions spread early, and a couple more late on. I was building religious buildings of one sort or another until the very end.

This is ideal. Get Copper, Marble, and Stone. After Alphabet, beeline to Music. Build Cathedrals immediately after completing Music.

I was probably c 30 turns off a victory still.

This is too long. Try to win before turn 250 (AD 1700). Your start didn't have any Commerce tiles like Gems. You need Gems for the early research burst to Alphabet and Music. Two Gems (or Gold and Gems) is better than one Gems. As mentioned before, your not running enough Artists or not running Pacifism with a good State Religion.

BTW. I am running 100% science or culture most of the time now, so that particular problem has been resolved.

I had trouble running either Research more than 80% or later Culture more than 80%. Maybe a Holy City's special religious building can generate the extra Wealth needed to run 100% I could have maximized my last game's trades to get more Wealth.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Can you pop 14 by 1600, even if you don´t have the Parthenon?

I must confess that I am building an aquaduct in the GP farm. I´ll try to avoid this in the next game.

I also build temples. Presumably this is OK; otherwise I´d have to found a fifth city to get the 2 cats per religion.

I´m switching to pacifism when I have researched lib. I only adopt a state religion though when all but one of my opponents have gone to free religion. (Though in my last game Cyrus asked me to adopt Buddhism which I duly did, and then forgot to switch back to no religion. No apparent harm came of it).

I also have to confess that I am not using the GP farm as a legendary city. My logic is that at the point that you are going to use the GA bombs, the third legendary city should be the one that has the most culture points. If you develop a third cultural city apart from the GP farm, it always has more cultural points than the GP farm. The only potential flaw in this line of reasoning is that if you have three "proper" legendary cities rather than 2 + a GP farm, you have to share the available cats between three cities rather than two, so each one doesn´t get as many. Hmmm. Maybe that is quite significant?

Pacifism without State Religion doesn't help.
Switching to CS+Pacif+State Religion at Liberalism is late.

The GPFarm is always slower than any cottage city. It also helps towards your research rate early. However, by building a 3rd cottage city you are sacrificing 2 things:
- All the culture in the GPFarm is useless
- You could have run a secondary GPFarm in that city.
Additionally you are forced to go to 6 cities.
I can't say it is always best, but I have a strong preference for a Legendary GPFarm.



I am also planning to do a detailed report of my first game, when I finish it. It's going horribly, but anyway it will be a win. Your perseverance deserves a win. I am thinking about including a 1000BC save (is that against the rules?) since I have the suspicion that there is a problem with your early game, only I am unable to tell what it is from your posts.
 
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