G-Major 29

[jesusin]

Do you think Vanila might be easier (less tech to research to get to Liberalism etc.)?

I am playing BTS becasuse I have to learn it.
But, yes, I think better results can be got with Vanilla.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

The AI always gets its civs starting techs (so Rome always has Fishing and Mining, for example). They get bonus techs as per the difficulty level.

Deity - The Wheel, Agriculture, Hunting, Archery
Immortal - Agriculture, Hunting, Archery
Emporer - Hunting, Archery
Monarch - Archery (even if no Hunting)

If the AI already starts with one of the bonus techs, I don't know if they get another one.

On low difficulty levels, the human gets bonus techs:
Warlord - The Wheel
Chieftan - The Wheel, Agriculture
Settler - The Wheel, Agriculture, Mining

Obviously, no bonus Technologies for Prince and Noble level AIs.

Thanks for the complete list of AI starting Technologies.

I think BTS is deifintely easier.
Vanilla Deity bonuses are moderately but significantly bigger, most notably the extra Worker, Archer and Scout, the 95% discount on unit upgrades (50% in BTS), and the 40% discount on population growth (20% in BTS).

Was more XML magic used to determine the above?

These differences are more than what one would expect, but I think the above changes in BTS were meant to help balance against BTS' better AI.

IIRC, the Vanilla AI will tech faster at the expense of military, and the space race is quicker than in BTS, so the AI will launch earlier.

Warlords probably has most of the same disadvantages that Vanilla has when compared to BTS. In a Cultural game where the player ensures that no AI will use the military option against them, there are no significant differences between Vanilla and Warlords.

In Vanilla or Warlords, the first AI to launch in a Cultural game would do so around Turn 210 (AD 1500). In BTS, the first AI seems to launch around Turn 250 (AD 1700), based on what people on this thread have been reporting. If true, that means the Space Colony threat is delayed by about 40 Turns. However, with BTS, one must contend with an AI trying a Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory, even before Turn 100. Also, an AI Cultural Victory is a real threat near the end, assuming you haven't already gotten yours by Turn 250. Also, somewhere around Turn 210-250, an AI will build the UN and your pleased diplomacy with everyone may not be enough to avoid a UN Diplomatic Victory. If you picked peaceful AIs and maintained pleased diplomacy, any AI military option is very unlikely to be used against you.

For the truly gifted (like jesusin and WastinTime), who regularly win before Turn 210 (AD 1500), the only AI Victory that is a threat is the Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory (even this threat is probably not much more than an minor annoyance for them).

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[unclethrill]

How exactly do you both win the race to liberalism and also build the Sistine chapel? I can't seem to get either.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

How exactly do you both win the race to liberalism and also build the Sistine chapel? I can't seem to get either.

1) Beeline to Alphabet; Build Library; Run 2 Scientists -> Great Scientist -> Academy in Capital (may overlay with steps 2-3 below).

2) Trade everything through Alphabet to get all important early Technologies.

3) Research Aesthetics and do some more trading, but not all at once like step #2.

4) Research Literature -> Drama -> Music.

5) Start building The Sistine Chapel (TSC) in city with largest Hammer value (or potentially largest as the Population grows and Tiles improve).

6) Delay trading Literature and Drama as much as possible while building The Sistine Chapel, but never trade Music until it (TSC) is built.

7) Research Civil Service -> Paper -> Education (bulb 1 GS) -> Liberalism.

8) Don't trade Education until Liberalism is completed.

While going through steps 1-8, avoid getting Technologies that aren't absolutely required to get to Liberalism or improve your Tiles and make trades that relieve the AI of all Gold he has to keep Research at 100% as much as possible. Don't forget to do trades of partially completed Technologies when an AI offers them to shave a few turns off the path to Liberalism.

If Marble is available while The Sistine Chapel is being built, the chances of completion improve dramatically.

After winning the race to The Sistine Chapel and Liberalism:

Hopefully you are first to Liberalism and pick Nationalism as your free Technology and can start building the Hermitage. All that is left is to research Printing Press which doesn't have to be full speed (in fact you can set Research to 0% and let your Artists do all the research).

To take advantage of the BTS extra 5 Culture per State Religion Building feature of The Sistine Chapel, you must have a State Religion which matches that of the Temples, Monasteries and Cathedrals in your three Cultural Cities. If possible, choose your State Religion to be that of The Apostolic Palace for the Hammer bonus or at least the Religion with the most buildings in your three Culture Cities.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[unclethrill]

Thanks!!

I'll try that out tomorrow.

 

[Mesix]

The only way I can get the Sistine Chapel is to find stone and build the Pyramids. When the GE pops, I save him for when I tech Music. These are typically the only wonders that I am able to build. In BTS, I think that the Sistine Chapel is required, not only because you get the extra culture, but because you denay an AI player from getting the bonus.

I have never been able to get Liberalism before 600-800 AD on Diety and I have never won the race to Liberalism. My first GS always bulbs Compas. This is not entirely a waste as I can usually trade Compas for 3-4 techs total from the AI players. The secons GS techs partial Education.

I have only reached the end game successfully one time so far, and then I hit the wrong button (three GA joined my city...doh!) which invalidated my entry.

 

[Mesix]

@ Sun Tzu Wu: What AI leaders do you generally play against?

One of the AI players always beats me to Music. If I could win the race to Music and keep it to myself while building the Sistine Chapel, that would really improve my game. The free GA from teching to Music first would be a nice bonus too.

 

[jesusin]

My first GS always bulbs Compas. This is not entirely a waste as I can usually trade Compas for 3-4 techs total from the AI players. The secons GS techs partial Education.

Why not an Academy in the capital instead of bulbing Compass?
Or what about bulbing Philo for a religion?

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

@ Sun Tzu Wu: What AI leaders do you generally play against?

The easiest ones to defeat that match the game settings provided.

Seriously, this means I pick the AIs based on attributes and starting technologies that will be the easiest to defeat or contain.

For this gauntlet, I initially picked peaceful Civs without the Creative attribute and those who did not start with either Mining or Mysticism. Creative Civs can box one in quicker. I also don't like Civs building mines or researching BW, or founding Buddhism or Hinduism immediately.

For example, in my Turn 253 (AD 1715) GM-29 win

http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/game_info.php?dsply=&entryID=12625

I played against:

Lincoln
Roosevelt
Darius I
Sitting Bull

In an earlier post

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6962863&postcount=167

I described this game in some detail. In this game, I was able to build The Sistine Chapel with Marble, but failed to be the first to Liberalism. It was a poorly played game, but I did manage a Cultural Win.

One of the AI players always beats me to Music. If I could win the race to Music and keep it to myself while building the Sistine Chapel, that would really improve my game. The free GA from teching to Music first would be a nice bonus too.

Be sure your initial Fat Cross contains a Grassland Gems tile. After improving a Food tile, improve the Gems tile. It will provide a huge research boost at about the time Writing is started.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[oyzar]

What sort of map scripts are allowed? If costum map scripts are allowed you can mod things alot(like make gems appear in clusters of 10 then regenerate until you land in such a cluster), this wouldn't really be fair...

Also since you need to build a boatload of temples wouldn't spiritual be pretty good(it also allow you to switch civics fast and more flexible than usual ofc), and hence ghandi or mansa(although that means you can't have either in the game), ghandi's UU also happens to be pretty damn good...

In bts there are a ton of events, are there any events that are very beneficial to culture game? I know there are some that generate instant culture, some that give free golden ages and some that spreads religion, would this potentially make bts better than vanilla?

 

[jesusin]

In bts there are a ton of events, are there any events that are very beneficial to culture game? I know there are some that generate instant culture, some that give free golden ages and some that spreads religion, would this potentially make bts better than vanilla?

There are 2 events that provide a free GA. That's quite good. On the other hand, slavery revolts are quite annoying.

Appart from Events, making a CS slingshot in BTS is much more difficult.

 

[Mesix]

I like the National Sports League quest. Getting +4 culture for yout Colleseums is nice. I got that event followed by the Glatiator Champion which gave me an additional +5 (total of 9 culture from a non-culture building) in one game.

 

[ssjos]

Ive gotten TSC several times in games where I bee-lined liberalism, and then traded/teched for athetics -> drama -> music (in BTS)
Helps to have marble when you do this though.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

There are 2 events that provide a free GA. That's quite good. On the other hand, slavery revolts are quite annoying.

In my current game, events have been clearly far more destructive than productive ...

Productive:

The human experiments of medicinal plants have the risk of losing Population for a chance of Civilization wide Health boost of 1-2. I was partially lucky; I lost 1 Population and gained 2 Health.

Destructive:

My slaves have been rebellious in my Capital 3 times so far by turn 150 (AD 800). There are three choices, but I don't completely understand the impact of them, so I have always chosen the middle one: Pay about 10G, lose 1 Population and 1 turn of disorder (Quell the rebellion and address slaves complaints). Each turn of disorder in the Capital effectively put my entire Civilization in anarchy, since almost all my research is generated in my Capital.

In the same event, my Capital's Library and University were destroyed in a flood just prior to turn 150 (AD 800). This one was particularly nasty. I don't really need the research, since I turned on the Culture in Turn 135 (AD 500), but I really miss the 2 + 3 = 5 Culture per turn those two buildings were generating.

Events have been so destructive in my current game that I almost decided to turn them off for my future GM-29 games.

Appart from Events, making a CS slingshot in BTS is much more difficult.

Not able to research fast enough to make Civil Service available before The Oracle completes (including an AI completing it first)?

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Ive gotten TSC several times in games where I bee-lined liberalism, and then traded/teched for athetics -> drama -> music (in BTS)
Helps to have marble when you do this though.

That's amazing, since it is likely that the first AI to Music would _not_ trade it while it built The Sistine Chapel. ssjos, how many AIs had Music when you were able to trade for it?

Mesix's idea of building The Pyramids and using the resulting Great Engineer to build The Sistine Chapel sounds good for quickly building TSC after trading for Music. (However, that could be difficult if the Great Engineer is the second Great Person and costs 200 GPP; The first Great Person is often a Great Scientist to build an early Academy.)

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I like the National Sports League quest. Getting +4 culture for your Colleseums is nice. I got that event followed by the Glatiator Champion which gave me an additional +5 (total of 9 culture from a non-culture building) in one game.

What is the National Sports League quest?

What is a Glatiator Champion?

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Mesix]

I try to make sure that I have sufficient GE points in the Pyramid city before assigning Scientists in all the other cities.

The Soprts League Quest requires you to build several (five on a small map) colleseums. One of the options upon completion is to add +4 Culture to every Colleseum.

THe Gladiator Champion Event says that your Colleseum has hosted Gladiator games and a Champion has emerged. One of the options is to add +5 Culture to the Colleseum in the affected city.

I'm sure the text is slightly off, but those were approximately the events that I got in the game that I (not quite) won in 1822.

 

[oyzar]

Just played a inland sea as elizabeth with mansa, lincon and darius. I had a double corn on a plains hill start with loads of hills around, no other resources. Got 2 floodplain cities and another 1 floodplain + cow + several grassland spot(secondary gp farm). Tech patch ag - wheel - pottery - writing - alpha(trade for alot of techs) - aestics(trade for some more techs, but did not manage to get monarchy which ment i delayed revolting to slavery and hrule until i could trade for it with about 100 beakers invested into it) - litterature - drama(popped a GS for philo, as my only selffounded religion) - music - col(traded for it after about 100 beakers invested as well) - CS - paper - edu - liberalism(for nationalism) - printing press upon where i stopped researching. Did not manage to trade for banking due to darius going wfyabta on me, and some poor management. I made academy in capital which in hindsight was a huge mistake as it never worked any cottages, built pantheon, sistine and NE there all without marble, should also have build hermitage with mines but i wanted to get artists up and running which was prolly a mistake, as it was the 3 cities were extremely close and i bombed almost entierly equal. I was a bit slow in settling the 3rd cultural city which was partially a mistake but had more to do with the way the land was laid. Also both my cottage cities topped out at size 14 which could obviously be improved upon. As it was after a heapload of mistakes and 14 GA's + 3 GS(i think) i got all 3 to legendary in 1560... This was without hofmod though(don't have inet on my comp with civ atm and don't have the hof mod there). I never had library in either of my cottage cities which is prolly a mistake and i should prolly have whipped the cathedrals a bit more.. Also i ran out of cash towards the end which was prolly due to me asking too little from the AI(i had about 1.5K in the bank when i started going 100%). No stone / marble / copper ment i couldn't actually get any double speed cathedrals which kinda sucked...

I think if i am playing this again it'll be without darius. He was largely useless in that he refused to trade me any techs until both others knew it(at which point i could just get it from mansa)... Anyone know what leaders require only one other leader to know a tech before trading it away? Also would be nice to know which leaders have caste system / hrule / slavery(although i guess it wouldn't last forever) / free speech / pacifism / decentralisation(though not going to stay there all game unless you mess up something) / mercantilism(if you get to banking) as favourite civics? I think looking into what leaders like this with low trading threshold might give you better results..

Oh and this is my first deity win btw, although i haven't actually tried before and chosing leaders feels kinda like cheating as getting declared on here means you have done something wrong...

 

[oyzar]

I am sure that especially with MOM some amount of golden ages will be worth it.. So a marble game where you get pantheon + sistine + mom + taj could potentially be very good, Those plains cottages(or grassland hills) get quite good when you are in a golden age(as does windmills, although doubtful you'll get the techs for making this good), and would let you build cathedrals faster, it doesn't give alot of direct culture/beakers(thorugh commerce, as you'll be working tops 50 commerce titles), but if you have a good main GP farm and a decent secondary you'll get quite a bit of GPP as well as hammers right when they are needed(and hence more culture). I haven't done any calcultations but in my game my main gp farm had 26 raw and the secondary 15 for 41 raw gpp per turn which translates into 328 or 492 gpp which might be enough for another GP(or at least the last one a bit earlier), i think i popped 1 scientist(while my capital were working hammer titles under burrecracy to get up wonders) and 3 artists(might have been 2 though) from my secondary gp farm. Say 10 hammers in each of your commerce cities which translates into 160 or 240 extra hammers or one or one and a half speed up cathedral(my cities were still building cathedrals at the end of the game, and in an optimal game you prolly want all the cathedral resources), which might have improved my finish quite alot.

 

[unclethrill]

1) Beeline to Alphabet; Build Library; Run 2 Scientists -> Great Scientist -> Academy in Capital (may overlay with steps 2-3 below).



Sun Tzu Wu

Well, I followed your advice and was able to build TSC but I missed Lib by 16 turns. In the end I had all 3 cities at 38k culture when Roosevelt got the culture win.

It was a loss but it was the closest I have come yet. I think I need a better start location. I had marble which helped with the build but I had little commerce so research wasn't helped in the beginning.