It doesn't have much to do with the absolute points as with the attitude, if they are pleased or more they ask could you spare this for a friend, and you don't get any - for refusing... You don't gain the +1 for you gave us help though. Several of the leaders used here have a hidden +1 against humans which makes it much easier to get them to pleased. When you are close to completing tsc you can trade away music anyways, you don't need to hold onto it until you actually complete it..
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It doesn't have much to do with the absolute points as with the attitude, if they are pleased or more they ask could you spare this for a friend, and you don't get any - for refusing... You don't gain the +1 for you gave us help though. Several of the leaders used here have a hidden +1 against humans which makes it much easier to get them to pleased. When you are close to completing tsc you can trade away music anyways, you don't need to hold onto it until you actually complete it..
Mesix
Obergruppenführer
Thanks for pointing out how much I suck.
Actually, I have finifhed two times with excluded games. The first I detailed in a thread above where I clicked the wrong icon adding three GA to my capitol instead of producing the Great Works to take it from 41K to 53K culture. The second time I was learning to use map finder. I got about half way through the game and said to myself "this map sure seems pretrty similar to one that I played last night" and sure enough it was. I have since learned to move and delete files from map finder as I use them.
That's right...the first time I won it was without having mapfinder installed on my computer. I had no commerce resources in my capitol's BFC, and was able to (almost if not for a misclick) get a very late 1822 finish.
I have been able to do most of the things that are detailed in the walkthroughs by you and others. Thank you very much for the great advice. The one thing that I have not been able to do is be the first to Liberalism. I generally am very late (1000AD-1200AD) to stopping research and cranking up the culture slider. I have been improving this in recent games.
I am determined to get this Gauntlet done before the June 10th deadline. I might have just tried a few times and then went back to playing other games towards my EQM, but after the clicking mishap I have become dedicatged to duplicating that victory (hopefully at a much earlier date).
Mesix
Obergruppenführer
I don't like Ghandi too much. I especially don't like him getting Diplomatic victories before 1000AD or Cultural Victories in 1400AD. I have been playing most of my games as Elizabeth. It is hard to beat the combo of Financial and Philosophical for this game type.
I am also taking your advice about making the map more crowded. I am now generating maps with 5 opponents excluding Ghandi and adding Darius and Lincoln. I probably won't play through any of them until tomorrow and hopefully they go a bit better.
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Just finished trying Rainforest. It has large numbers floodplains and even more jungle covered grasslands. In the jungle areas, one needs at least 2 Workers clearing jungle full-time in addition to the usual 4-5 Workers for a 4 city civilization. The most disappointing part of this map is the lack of variety in Health resources.
I started out in a grasslands area clear of jungle with 2 Pig, 2 Gems and 1 Deer within the fat cross centered on a fork in the river and I built my Capital there. It turned out that about 4 tiles down each of the three rivers (one downstream and two upstream) there was a potential city site with 2-5 resources within a fat cross area, but each of the non-capital sites was solid jungle. The cities had adjacent and non-overlapping fat crosses, so each commerce city could run up to 20 cottages each (cottaging over unneeded resources).
In this game, I played Elizabeth (Philosophical and Financial) again. Philosophical is really important for the Great Person point boost. Financial is almost as important for the Cottage fueled Research in the early game and the Cottage fueled Culture in the end game. My opponents were Darius I, Hatshepsut, Mansa Musa, and Washington.
Diplomacy went very smoothly in this game; After the usual 0 diplomacy in the early game, it never went below 3; I didn't even have to try to raise my diplomacy, even after Hatshepsut insisted that I join her (AP) Religion. I had three very early religions (Buddhism, Hinduism and Judaism); I had Stone, but no Copper or Marble. I managed to build The Pyramids with Stone, but The Sistine Chapel without Marble wasn't even close (Not enough Hammers) at 16t to go. I also lost the race to Liberalism by about 3t; I did foolishly trade Education for Philosophy so I wouldn't have to research it for 4t prior to Liberalism.
Earlier in the game, I didn't notice that Hatshepsut was building the majority of all the World Wonders. On Turn 160 (AD 1000), I noticed that Hatshepsut Culture was already approaching 10K with my Culture roughly at about half that. Both my Cottage and Artist development was very so to start, due to jungle clearing and low Health resources.
Hatshepsut's Culture rate was about 370 Cpt in the third city and my 2nd Cottage city's was 200 Cpt, but my Great Artist spamming should easily close the gap. However, by Turn 200 (AD 1400), Hatshepsut built The Eiffel Tower and Rock N Roll and as 1000 year doubling bonuses kicked in for her early buildings and especially WWs, her Culture rate in her third city rose to 500-600 Cpt. Then on turn 208 (AD 1480), Hatshepsut's Culture rate in her third city inexplicably jumped from 500-600 Cpt to 900-1000 Cpt. I simply couldn't spam Great Artists fast enough to catch up.
On turn 223 (AD 1565), Hatshepsut generated a Great Artist in her third city and used it on the following turn to go from 45.5K Culture to 50.5K resulting in a Cultural Victory (turn 224; AD 1570). I wish I had turned on Permanent Alliance, since my diplomacy was Friendly (14). There would have been enough time to get a Defensive Pact on turn 160 and possibly get the Permanent Alliance on turn 200. Is this waiting period between DP and PA 40 turns or longer?
GP: GS for Academy, GS for most of Education, GE for National Epic, GE for Buddhist Stupa, 8 GA, and three more GA nearly born.
Again, what really slowed me down was Health which was never better than 14-15 until UN Environmentalism (+6 Health) was passed. Even with the poor Health, I had one city at 20P and the Capital at 18P.
I also blundered again by building Hermitage in the GP Farm which had enough Hammers to do it, because the Cottage cities were busy doing something else. I probably should have saved the second GE for the Hermitage.
Well, another poorly played game, but I got the loss this time that I justly deserved.
Sun Tzu Wu
I started out in a grasslands area clear of jungle with 2 Pig, 2 Gems and 1 Deer within the fat cross centered on a fork in the river and I built my Capital there. It turned out that about 4 tiles down each of the three rivers (one downstream and two upstream) there was a potential city site with 2-5 resources within a fat cross area, but each of the non-capital sites was solid jungle. The cities had adjacent and non-overlapping fat crosses, so each commerce city could run up to 20 cottages each (cottaging over unneeded resources).
In this game, I played Elizabeth (Philosophical and Financial) again. Philosophical is really important for the Great Person point boost. Financial is almost as important for the Cottage fueled Research in the early game and the Cottage fueled Culture in the end game. My opponents were Darius I, Hatshepsut, Mansa Musa, and Washington.
Diplomacy went very smoothly in this game; After the usual 0 diplomacy in the early game, it never went below 3; I didn't even have to try to raise my diplomacy, even after Hatshepsut insisted that I join her (AP) Religion. I had three very early religions (Buddhism, Hinduism and Judaism); I had Stone, but no Copper or Marble. I managed to build The Pyramids with Stone, but The Sistine Chapel without Marble wasn't even close (Not enough Hammers) at 16t to go. I also lost the race to Liberalism by about 3t; I did foolishly trade Education for Philosophy so I wouldn't have to research it for 4t prior to Liberalism.
Earlier in the game, I didn't notice that Hatshepsut was building the majority of all the World Wonders. On Turn 160 (AD 1000), I noticed that Hatshepsut Culture was already approaching 10K with my Culture roughly at about half that. Both my Cottage and Artist development was very so to start, due to jungle clearing and low Health resources.
Hatshepsut's Culture rate was about 370 Cpt in the third city and my 2nd Cottage city's was 200 Cpt, but my Great Artist spamming should easily close the gap. However, by Turn 200 (AD 1400), Hatshepsut built The Eiffel Tower and Rock N Roll and as 1000 year doubling bonuses kicked in for her early buildings and especially WWs, her Culture rate in her third city rose to 500-600 Cpt. Then on turn 208 (AD 1480), Hatshepsut's Culture rate in her third city inexplicably jumped from 500-600 Cpt to 900-1000 Cpt. I simply couldn't spam Great Artists fast enough to catch up.
On turn 223 (AD 1565), Hatshepsut generated a Great Artist in her third city and used it on the following turn to go from 45.5K Culture to 50.5K resulting in a Cultural Victory (turn 224; AD 1570). I wish I had turned on Permanent Alliance, since my diplomacy was Friendly (14). There would have been enough time to get a Defensive Pact on turn 160 and possibly get the Permanent Alliance on turn 200. Is this waiting period between DP and PA 40 turns or longer?
GP: GS for Academy, GS for most of Education, GE for National Epic, GE for Buddhist Stupa, 8 GA, and three more GA nearly born.
Again, what really slowed me down was Health which was never better than 14-15 until UN Environmentalism (+6 Health) was passed. Even with the poor Health, I had one city at 20P and the Capital at 18P.
I also blundered again by building Hermitage in the GP Farm which had enough Hammers to do it, because the Cottage cities were busy doing something else. I probably should have saved the second GE for the Hermitage.
Well, another poorly played game, but I got the loss this time that I justly deserved.
Sun Tzu Wu
Mesix
Obergruppenführer
Well this was a first.
The game seemed to be going very well. My BFC had two grassland gems and a gold with a cow and several irrigated tiles for food. One of my grassland hill mines also found silver around turn 80 or so (that's 4 commerce resources in my capitol). I was able to build the Pyramids with Stone and run Representation. I was also able to build the Sistine Chapel with the GE. I had four religions in all four of my cities and had built most of my Cathedrials by about 1200 AD. I had researched all required techs except Nationalism (for Hermitage) which was slowly finishing from the 4 research per Artist.
I got one GA from Music and produced four more by 1300.
Then the AI spread Mining Inc to all four cities and my economy tanked. Sure my production went way up, but the maintenance was like 20 per turn per city. After building Courthouses (which took about 6 turns) I could only run my Culture slider at 40% and the AI borders started to creep up on me. One of my cities was culture flipped. My capitol lost several farmed tiles to Mansa Musa's culture and people started to starve. I could no longer run Artists in my GP farm.
This is the first time that I have lost due to corporation spread.
The game seemed to be going very well. My BFC had two grassland gems and a gold with a cow and several irrigated tiles for food. One of my grassland hill mines also found silver around turn 80 or so (that's 4 commerce resources in my capitol). I was able to build the Pyramids with Stone and run Representation. I was also able to build the Sistine Chapel with the GE. I had four religions in all four of my cities and had built most of my Cathedrials by about 1200 AD. I had researched all required techs except Nationalism (for Hermitage) which was slowly finishing from the 4 research per Artist.
I got one GA from Music and produced four more by 1300.
Then the AI spread Mining Inc to all four cities and my economy tanked. Sure my production went way up, but the maintenance was like 20 per turn per city. After building Courthouses (which took about 6 turns) I could only run my Culture slider at 40% and the AI borders started to creep up on me. One of my cities was culture flipped. My capitol lost several farmed tiles to Mansa Musa's culture and people started to starve. I could no longer run Artists in my GP farm.
This is the first time that I have lost due to corporation spread.
Mesix
Obergruppenführer
@ Sun Tzu Wu: Have you been able to get a PA with these settings? The option never comes up for me. I do get a Defensive Pact eventually, but the PA never appears in the Diplo Screen. What is required for a PA?
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Being first to Liberalism is not critical. All this means is you don't get Nationalism as the first to Liberalism reward and must research it the hard way. Also, the AI that is first has a slight Tech advantage that could be leveraged into a Win for the AI, but if you are fast at building Culture, losing the Liberalism race will probably only increase the win date by a few turns.
However, you must turn the Culture slider to 100% (or as high as possible)/Research slider to 00% on the Liberalism completion turn. Your Artists should be able to research Printing Press (and Nationalism if you lost the race to Liberalism). No other later period Technologies are needed and all the earlier ones can be traded for.
Note that you should trade only for Technologies that will directly help you win a Cultural Victory. For example, Metal Casting is totally useless for improving Culture and a Forge's -1 Health actually harms Culture by reducing the size of the Population and hence the number of Cottages worked or Artists hired.
Sun Tzu Wu
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Permanent Alliance is a game option that is available when you start a Custom Game (selecting the Map type, player leader, opponents, etc). If this option is not selected you will never be able to form a Permanent Alliance with an AI. Also, note that with the PA option selected, an AI can also form a PA with another AI!
Sun Tzu Wu
Do you think your 3rd GS is better than a GA? This is an old discussion I had with WastinTime. I would like to hear your thoughts about it.
The first (early) GS for an Academy is a no brainer. I love to have a second one for Philo, since it provides a religion and it guaranties a won Liberalism race, if you don't trade Philo away.
The third one "just" makes you stop researching sooner. But, is it better than a GA to bomb at the end of the game?
Appart from that you need one of two particular techs (comm or fascism, IIRC) and you need to have a number of turns in DP or a number of turns in common war.
In Vanilla I rarely lose with this settings (very early dow or relations mismanagement).
In BTS, is there something the player can do against an AP victory by the AI? It would be sad not to be in control of the game.
Theocracy is not an option, since you want other religions to spread. The player's pop is not going to be high enough. What can you do? Help spread the religion to more cities for other AIs? They already do that more quickly and effectively than you can. Any ideas?
In BTS, is there something the player can do against an AP victory by the AI? It would be sad not to be in control of the game.
Theocracy is not an option, since you want other religions to spread. The player's pop is not going to be high enough. What can you do? Help spread the religion to more cities for other AIs? They already do that more quickly and effectively than you can. Any ideas?
Well of course since cultural is non-linear as you've pointed out before, whether you want a 3rd GS or a GA depends on a bunch of interrelated factors. Mainly on if the extra turns of FS makes a difference in one of the 2 cottage cities being legendary at the time the other is or if you have 2-3 GP farms if the timings of the final pops are close enough or if it's actually better to settle that GA in one of your cities right then...
But generally I feel pretty safe in saying that on normal speed when you need to build a lot of culture in 2 cities instead of just one like on quick, there's a greater chance a GS is better. But my feeling is in most games a GA still will be better.
Its quite easy to not get beat TBH.
First in order for AI to win Apostic palace victory he needs to spread religon to all opponents. Usually AI internal relations is not all that good and one AI are not affected by the religon and has no open border with AP builder.
Second, Since win by self vote is not allowed the AI needs to have good relations(5+?) with at least one other AI who does not share his religon for him to be able to win by AP. (Even AIs who vote for him as president will not vote for him to win unless they really like him).
Third, The AI have to spread the religon in question to you. By spreading his religon to all your cities and abstaining in the victory vote you can probably keep him from winning even if one other AI votes for him (75% needed for win I think).
To sum up, Ive never lost to an AI AP victory and I find them very unlikely to happend. If you do feel there is an actual threat (1 and 2 are fulfilled, and you just got the religon spread as he finished the palace you may wanna "sacrifice" some resourses to spread his religon in your empire fast. (But 1 and 2 are nearly never true, so if you do this your most likely just paranoid)
Mesix
Obergruppenführer
Do you have to have the techs, or will the option become available when the AI gets the tech. I know that with defensive pacts the option becomes available when the AI gets the tech as I never research that far in these type of games.
Mesix
Obergruppenführer
In several games, the AP has only cased me to lose a couple of times. It is usually another Cultural victory or the UN that do me in. Ghandi seem to be efficient at achieving both of them.
Mesix
Obergruppenführer
Do you save all of your GA for an end of game culture bomb, or do you settle an early GA?
I was thinking about this a couple of days ago. When you settle a GA you get +12 base culture and +3 base gold (an additional +2 culture and +3 research if you get the Pyramids for Representation and the Sistine Chapel). If you have 4-5 Cathedrials and Hermitage in the city combined with the Free Speech civic, that is a whopping 70-84 culture per turn in the late game.
The last couple games, I have been settling the GA from being the first to Music (about turn 70-80) who then has 100+ turns to crank out culture. I estimate that he generates between 5K and 6K culture over the rest of the game (more if it drags out like my games tend to). The extra gold is also beneficial because it will allow the slider to be run at max culture longer without running out of gold.
Do you think this is a good idea or not?
Yes, the tech can be both yours or theirs.
Yes. If it is really early and you are going to be quick to build multipliers and the city is not going to be Legendary much sooner than the other two cities, it is a good idea.
Mesix
Obergruppenführer
The PA option makes the game much easier. I tried it out and didn't even have that great of a start and almost won. Darius had a Space Colony Victory a few turns before I would have had two legendary cities. My PA Asoka had one city at kile 48K so that would have been 3 provided the Legendary cities from both members of the PA count towards a Cultural Victory.
When I got the PA, I got all the advanced techs. My GP farms were generating a lot more GA with Biology and the Environmentalism Civic. I was also able to burn a GA to found Creative Constructions and spread it to my three cities for +18 base culture per turn. Broadcast Towers were like having an additional Cathedrial. I think London was generating something like 900-1000 Culture per turn towards the end there.
My home PC doesn't have map finder. While I am finishing up my monthly reports at work tonight I will run Map Finder on my laptop with PA option to generate some more starts.
Thanks again for all of the advice.
When I got the PA, I got all the advanced techs. My GP farms were generating a lot more GA with Biology and the Environmentalism Civic. I was also able to burn a GA to found Creative Constructions and spread it to my three cities for +18 base culture per turn. Broadcast Towers were like having an additional Cathedrial. I think London was generating something like 900-1000 Culture per turn towards the end there.
My home PC doesn't have map finder. While I am finishing up my monthly reports at work tonight I will run Map Finder on my laptop with PA option to generate some more starts.
Thanks again for all of the advice.
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