G-Major 29

[Mesix]

I did change the strategy from whipping the Library to building it, since it was unrealistic to research Bronze Working and beeline Alphabet in time to use Slavery or chopping to build the Library starting at t26 (BC 2960). In any case, chopping the Library would be better than whipping, since that should allow at least one Citizen free to be hired as a Scientist for 17 turns.

With plentiful food, one could even hire two Scientists instead one and thus generate the Great Scientist in 9 turns rather than 17 turns. Thus, the Great Scientist could build the Academy as early as turn 47 rather than turn 55!

The more food you have the better this all works out, especially when using whipping. The best food resources (irrigated Corn, Pig or even Fish) should be used when possible.

In my current game, I generated my first Great Scientist on turn 59. I could have done it much earlier, but my Settler generation would have suffered even more than it already has.

Sun Tzu Wu

I think that the settler production is the difference. This is my typical build order:

Worker (12-15 turns)
Warriors (Allow city to grow while making cheap defenders for future cities)
Settlers (once I reach size 3-4 depending on resources)
Another worker or two
Culture buildings (For the rest of the game)

The worker finishes three turns earlier with a plains/hill city. The warriors typically take 5 turns each as the city grows while building three of them takes another 15 turns. About turn 30-35 I start to build my first settler. I build two of them at 12-17 turns each. I generally reach Alphabet by about turn 41-48 just as the second settler is finishing up. Two additional workers takes me 6-8 turns. I start building a library at about turn 50-55. Sometimes I build a wonder instead.

By the time the Library is done, it is much later than in your strategy. The only way I could see to improve the time for the library would be to build it before the second settler. With the way the AI efficiently REX the available land, I just don't see how I could delay the settler and still get three good city locations.

In the game I won, my second city was building the Pyramids (eventually gold when the AI finished before me) while the Capitol was building the Parthenon and I was delaying trading Asthetics to the AI. The third city was building a Library followed by Monistaries and Temples. The forth city was not built until about turn 85 since the location was safely within my borders. I actually had room for 2 more cities, but based on earlier discussion only built the four.

What build order do other people use to get better results?

edit: I just checked the player log from my submission. I founded York on turn 38 and Nottingham on turn 48. Hastings was founded on turn 85.

 

[unclethrill]

Congrats Mesix!!

Now you can do that work for the boss you have been putting off while I try to get a win too.

 

[Mesix]

Congrats Mesix!!

Now you can do that work for the boss you have been putting off while I try to get a win too.

Work? What's that?

Oh, the 40 hours per week that I get paid to play Civ IV as opposed to the pro-bono time that I put in at home.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

By the time the Library is done, it is much later than in your strategy. The only way I could see to improve the time for the library would be to build it before the second settler. With the way the AI efficiently REX the available land, I just don't see how I could delay the settler and still get three good city locations.

I build a Library in the Capital before building any Settlers. Of course building Settlers earlier would get the corresponding Cities up much faster, but it does drag the economy down, especially when building farther from the Capital than about 4 tiles to get the strategic resources Copper, Marble and Stone.

Ideally, one will have such an excess of Food in the Capital that when it grows to Population 6, it can generate Settlers in 8 turns or less without Chopping or Whipping. Thus in less than 24 turns at the Capital's peak Population of 6, three Settlers can be quickly generated the "hard" way. Chopping may be better and Whipping may be more optimal use of the excess Food, but you get my point about never underestimating the need for Food!

In most of my games, the AI is struggling to explore, much less claim land. I have plenty of time to settle in prime locations. Hint: I don't play Inland Sea!

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[jesusin]

Getting a scientist by turn 55 is impressive. However, the "flaw" in what you write from my perspective is that in virtually all of my games there is a lag between when I build the library and when I can start running scientists. (Remember I am playing vanilla). I´ve mentioned this curiousity before, but no one seems to have picked up on this point. What is going on here? Am I doing anything wrong?

I think it is a bug due to stacked specialist. Uncheck that option.

 

[unclethrill]

I did it!!!

Finally!!!

1695 might not be the best time (might even be the slowest) and the game was not very elegant with a lot of "could've been better" situations, but it is a victory.

I forgot to save at 4000 BC. I submitted with the Map finder save file. Is this okay, or am I destined to have another rejection?

Well I finally got my win too. And I hope we don't get accused of cheating. I also got a permanent alliance with Hatty and got the win in 1695.

For my game, I wasn't able to get the DP until turn 204 because "we just don't like you that much" so the PA didn't come up until turn 249 for me (at least that when I saw it). I was rolling along, had a good start (2 gold, 2 corn, 1 pig), built a couple warriors and popped a scout. I whipped a library but only ran 1 specialist so I could get 3 settlers out quick. Found 3 decent city starts, 1 with 5FP so the commerce rolled out of there. I was the first to music but had no good production city so I lost TSC. On the same turn (+ or - a couple), I lost the Parthenon and SoZ so I was pretty bummed and thought I had another loss. I got all my libs up and popped Philo and half of Ed and damned if I didn't finally make it to Lib first and get nationalism.

I had 4 religions so I spread them ASAP and got temples and caths going. Had 8 GA and as I said on 204 I got a DP with Hatty. By turn 235 she had 2 legendary cities and on at 30K. I knew all I needed was a PA and I could get the win so I was just waiting. Then on turn 248, Darius declares war and takes one of his cities that I had turned with culture (I turned 3 total). I was soooooo Pi$$ed. I was so close and another game was gonna be lost. On the next turn, as his paratroopers descended on London, I asked Hatty for a PA, which she accepted, and I popped 5 GA in London. It went legendary and I finally got the win.

Like Mesix, it almost feels like cheating but at this point, I'll take it and move on to finishing out the Quatromaster. I should be able get mine on this update too.

Thanks all for your help and advice. Especially SunTzuWu and WastinTime, I couldn't have done it without ya!

 

[Mesix]

Well I finally got my win too. And I hope we don't get accused of cheating. I also got a permanent alliance with Hatty and got the win in 1695.

For my game, I wasn't able to get the DP until turn 204 because "we just don't like you that much" so the PA didn't come up until turn 249 for me (at least that when I saw it). I was rolling along, had a good start (2 gold, 2 corn, 1 pig), built a couple warriors and popped a scout. I whipped a library but only ran 1 specialist so I could get 3 settlers out quick. Found 3 decent city starts, 1 with 5FP so the commerce rolled out of there. I was the first to music but had no good production city so I lost TSC. On the same turn (+ or - a couple), I lost the Parthenon and SoZ so I was pretty bummed and thought I had another loss. I got all my libs up and popped Philo and half of Ed and damned if I didn't finally make it to Lib first and get nationalism.

I had 4 religions so I spread them ASAP and got temples and caths going. Had 8 GA and as I said on 204 I got a DP with Hatty. By turn 235 she had 2 legendary cities and on at 30K. I knew all I needed was a PA and I could get the win so I was just waiting. Then on turn 248, Darius declares war and takes one of his cities that I had turned with culture (I turned 3 total). I was soooooo Pi$$ed. I was so close and another game was gonna be lost. On the next turn, as his paratroopers descended on London, I asked Hatty for a PA, which she accepted, and I popped 5 GA in London. It went legendary and I finally got the win.

Like Mesix, it almost feels like cheating but at this point, I'll take it and move on to finishing out the Quatromaster. I should be able get mine on this update too.

Thanks all for your help and advice. Especially SunTzuWu and WastinTime, I couldn't have done it without ya!

Nice job .

I'm actually drinking a pretty stiff Pina Colada from a Planet Hollywood glass that I got at a management conference in Orlando some years back (the glass, not the drink). So here is a salute to my friend Uncele Thrill for finally getting his Cultural Diety Major Gauntlet win.

See you at "work" tomorrow night.

 

[Mesix]

BTW, I think Hatty is the easiest to get a DP and PA with in this game. Run the same religion and the Organized religion civic and you are home free. The Organized religion civic allows you to spread religion to your cities faster and build ALL buildings and Wonders (especially the required Cathedrials) 25% faster. Once you have the PA in hand and the Cats built, switch to Pacificism to crank out the GA.

 

[unclethrill]

BTW, I think Hatty is the easiest to get a DP and PA with in this game. Run the same religion and the Organized religion civic and you are home free. The Organized religion civic allows you to spread religion to your cities faster and build ALL buildings and Wonders (especially the required Cathedrials) 25% faster. Once you have the PA in hand and the Cats built, switch to Pacificism to crank out the GA.

That may be why it took me so long to get a DP. I was in pacifism from the time I popped Philo

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Well I finally got my win too. And I hope we don't get accused of cheating. I also got a permanent alliance with Hatty and got the win in 1695.

For my game, I wasn't able to get the DP until turn 204 because "we just don't like you that much" so the PA didn't come up until turn 249 for me (at least that when I saw it). I was rolling along, had a good start (2 gold, 2 corn, 1 pig), built a couple warriors and popped a scout. I whipped a library but only ran 1 specialist so I could get 3 settlers out quick. Found 3 decent city starts, 1 with 5FP so the commerce rolled out of there. I was the first to music but had no good production city so I lost TSC. On the same turn (+ or - a couple), I lost the Parthenon and SoZ so I was pretty bummed and thought I had another loss. I got all my libs up and popped Philo and half of Ed and damned if I didn't finally make it to Lib first and get nationalism.

I had 4 religions so I spread them ASAP and got temples and caths going. Had 8 GA and as I said on 204 I got a DP with Hatty. By turn 235 she had 2 legendary cities and on at 30K. I knew all I needed was a PA and I could get the win so I was just waiting. Then on turn 248, Darius declares war and takes one of his cities that I had turned with culture (I turned 3 total). I was soooooo Pi$$ed. I was so close and another game was gonna be lost. On the next turn, as his paratroopers descended on London, I asked Hatty for a PA, which she accepted, and I popped 5 GA in London. It went legendary and I finally got the win.

Like Mesix, it almost feels like cheating but at this point, I'll take it and move on to finishing out the Quatromaster. I should be able get mine on this update too.

Thanks all for your help and advice. Especially SunTzuWu and WastinTime, I couldn't have done it without ya!

Great write up on your win. If you had gotten The Sistine Chapel, you probably could have won earlier without a PA.

Permanent Alliance is perfectly acceptable for all games, except when specifically prohibited in a gauntlet, but I'm not sure that has ever happened yet. Don't forgot that none of the best players are above using if it provides an advantage to winning early. Earlier in this thread, WastinTime said that Permanent Alliance plus One City Challenge was going to be his secret weapon, until he realized ...

Congratulations!

I'm glad that my advice was helpful to you as well.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Pious_Pete]

I think it is a bug due to stacked specialist. Uncheck that option.

I´ll say it´s a bug - it´s really been bugging me!

Thanks for the tip. I´ll try it in my next game.

 

[Pious_Pete]

I build a Library in the Capital before building any Settlers.

Oh!

Of course building Settlers earlier would get the corresponding Cities up much faster, but it does drag the economy down, especially when building farther from the Capital than about 4 tiles to get the strategic resources Copper, Marble and Stone.

Ideally, one will have such an excess of Food in the Capital that when it grows to Population 6, it can generate Settlers in 8 turns or less without Chopping or Whipping. Thus in less than 24 turns at the Capital's peak Population of 6, three Settlers can be quickly generated the "hard" way. Chopping may be better and Whipping may be more optimal use of the excess Food, but you get my point about never underestimating the need for Food!

Don´t start me off about 2 food starts again...

...too late.

I ran mapfinder again today. 14 hours, 1441 games, 7 saves. Only one of these had two food starts (the others had two commerce starts). I´m not going to go off in too much of a huff - 3 of the starts are playable - but I would hardly ever get the chance to follow this particular strategy.

In most of my games, the AI is struggling to explore, much less claim land. I have plenty of time to settle in prime locations. Hint: I don't play Inland Sea!

So, I have to ask: what do you play?

 

[Bram]

I think that the settler production is the difference. This is my typical build order:

Worker (12-15 turns)
Warriors (Allow city to grow while making cheap defenders for future cities)
Settlers (once I reach size 3-4 depending on resources)
Another worker or two
Culture buildings (For the rest of the game)

The worker finishes three turns earlier with a plains/hill city. The warriors typically take 5 turns each as the city grows while building three of them takes another 15 turns. About turn 30-35 I start to build my first settler. I build two of them at 12-17 turns each. I generally reach Alphabet by about turn 41-48 just as the second settler is finishing up. Two additional workers takes me 6-8 turns. I start building a library at about turn 50-55. Sometimes I build a wonder instead.

By the time the Library is done, it is much later than in your strategy. The only way I could see to improve the time for the library would be to build it before the second settler. With the way the AI efficiently REX the available land, I just don't see how I could delay the settler and still get three good city locations.

In the game I won, my second city was building the Pyramids (eventually gold when the AI finished before me) while the Capitol was building the Parthenon and I was delaying trading Asthetics to the AI. The third city was building a Library followed by Monistaries and Temples. The forth city was not built until about turn 85 since the location was safely within my borders. I actually had room for 2 more cities, but based on earlier discussion only built the four.

What build order do other people use to get better results?

edit: I just checked the player log from my submission. I founded York on turn 38 and Nottingham on turn 48. Hastings was founded on turn 85.

My build order:
Worker (12 turns)
1-2 Warriors
Settler (size 3-5, depending on map)
Library
Settler
Worker

I don't usually play a map if the Worker doesn't finish in 12 turns. Starting on a Plains Hill (or Marble, Stone or Food resource) is really important. I'll build the secend Settler before the Library if I see a good spot for a third city and the AI might beat me to it otherwise. The fourth city comes much later for me, as it doesn't need to be in as good a location as the first three and I want to keep maintenance low as long as possible. In my last (and best) game, I founded cities on turn 38, 44 and 87 (the second settler before the Library).

After the two Settlers, my first priority was to get an Academy. Library finishes on turn 45, Great Scientist on turn 54. Alphabet was a bit late on turn 52. My research this game was slow (CS turn 91, Music turn 108, Liberalism turn 132). Mansa Musa beat me to Music by two turns, but I was still first to Liberalism, because Mansa Musa decided to research Economics first. I compensated by building a lot of wonders: Pyramids, Hanging Gardens, Statue of Zeus, Parthenon, Sistine Chapel, Shwedagon Paya, Taj Mahal. I missed University of Sankore by a single turn. A total of 16 GP: 1 GS, 2 GE, 1 GP, 12 GA.

For my last three games, I finished Liberalism on turn 109, 129 and 132. Finishing Liberalism later (but still being first) works out better (at least, looking at the results). Base culture is probably more important than early Liberalism.

 

[FiveAces]

For my last three games, I finished Liberalism on turn 109, 129 and 132. Finishing Liberalism later (but still being first) works out better (at least, looking at the results). Base culture is probably more important than early Liberalism.

Interesting. When you say base culture is more important than early liberalism, do you mean researching off the beeline to unlock wonders or do you mean something else?

 

[Bram]

Interesting. When you say base culture is more important than early liberalism, do you mean researching off the beeline to unlock wonders or do you mean something else?

My research path is:

Agriculture (if necessary, but it usually is)
Mining
Animal Husbandry
Writing
Alphabet
Civil Service
Music
Liberalism

Researching Music after Civil Service means I'm usually first to Music (though not this time - my research was too slow). Researching Aesthetics myself allows me to build a lot more wonders than would otherwise be possible.

 

[Mesix]

What leader are you playing?

I usually play Elizabeth (Phi/Fin). She starts with Mining.

My redearch path is:

Either Wheel/Pottery or Agriculture/Animal Husbandry
Writing
Alphabet
Asthetics
Literature
Music
Philosophy (from bulb)
Drama
Civil Service
Paper
Education (1/2 bulb)
Liberalism

I occasionally have to research Polytheism, Mathematics, and Code of Laws too if the AI players are stingy and don't want to trade for them.

 

[Bram]

I've played Elizabeth, Louis XIV, Pericles and Peter for this gauntlet. My best game was Pericles. Industrious/Financial also seems good, but that combination is taken by the Inca.

When playing Elizabeth, I've used Wheel/Pottery as well, but most good starts need Agriculture, and then Animal Husbandry gets you to Writing sooner. Since Pericles starts with Hunting, Animal Husbandry will always get you to Writing sooner, and without Financial Cottages are not as important.

After Alphabet, my priority is Civil Service, since it allows you both more research and more production (for wonders). I usually research Code of Laws myself and trade it for Mathematics.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

In most of my games, the AI is struggling to explore, much less claim land. I have plenty of time to settle in prime locations. Hint: I don't play Inland Sea!
Sun Tzu Wu

I ran mapfinder again today. 14 hours, 1441 games, 7 saves. Only one of these had two food starts (the others had two commerce starts). I´m not going to go off in too much of a huff - 3 of the starts are playable - but I would hardly ever get the chance to follow this particular strategy.

So, I have to ask: what do you play?

My only win (AD 1715) with huge mistakes was a Pangaea map. AI expansion on this map was extremely fast, but I did get reasonably good locations for the Culture cities.

My second attempt was on a Rainforest map. Hunting -> Animal Husbandry -> Writing -> Alphabet on turn 42 (BC 2320). Got a GS late around turn 81 (BC 850). Literature -> Drama -> Music (first) on turn 91 (BC 600). The Pyramids and Representation on turn 92 (BC 575). Traded Music for part of Civil Service on turn 95 (BC 500). Paper -> Education with GS bulb -> (traded Education for Philosophy+Monarchy+Construction) -> Liberalism on turn 119 (AD 100); trading Education for Philosophy saved only 4t and probably caused me to lose the race to Liberalism. Failed to get The Sistine Chapel, despite researching Music first. Biggest problems with Rainforest is small number of different Health resources (some of which may appear only once on the entire map) and especially the Jungle. Due to the Jungle, the AI was extremely slow to expand.

My current attempt is on a Highland map and other than getting The Sistine Chapel and 4 early Religions (founding one), it isn't going well enough to be better than a turn 210 (AD 1500) finish. The AI was slow to explore and expand on this map as well. From Huts, I popped Gold twice, a Scout, Bronze Working, Iron Working and Sailing (was hoping for Civil Service on this late Hut, but no dice).

Other maps that seem promising for this gauntlet include:

Great Plains
Lakes
Oasis
Terra
Boreal
Global Highlands

They are mainly flat or one continent maps, except Global Highlands with its good Health/Hammer prospects and Terra which for this gauntlet is effectively one continent, since we don't care what the AIs do to the New World when they research Astronomy (assuming they even get to it).

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

My build order:
Worker (12 turns)
1-2 Warriors
Settler (size 3-5, depending on map)
Library
Settler
Worker

I don't usually play a map if the Worker doesn't finish in 12 turns. Starting on a Plains Hill (or Marble, Stone or Food resource) is really important. I'll build the second Settler before the Library if I see a good spot for a third city and the AI might beat me to it otherwise. The fourth city comes much later for me, as it doesn't need to be in as good a location as the first three and I want to keep maintenance low as long as possible. In my last (and best) game, I founded cities on turn 38, 44 and 87 (the second settler before the Library).

After the two Settlers, my first priority was to get an Academy. Library finishes on turn 45, Great Scientist on turn 54. Alphabet was a bit late on turn 52. My research this game was slow (CS turn 91, Music turn 108, Liberalism turn 132). Mansa Musa beat me to Music by two turns, but I was still first to Liberalism, because Mansa Musa decided to research Economics first. I compensated by building a lot of wonders: Pyramids, Hanging Gardens, Statue of Zeus, Parthenon, Sistine Chapel, Shwedagon Paya, Taj Mahal. I missed University of Sankore by a single turn. A total of 16 GP: 1 GS, 2 GE, 1 GP, 12 GA.

For my last three games, I finished Liberalism on turn 109, 129 and 132. Finishing Liberalism later (but still being first) works out better (at least, looking at the results). Base culture is probably more important than early Liberalism.

I understand that settling on a Plains Hill, Marble or Stone provides an extra Hammer. Starting on an Ivory does the same. (Plains Hill Marble or Plains Hill Stone provides two extra Hammers.) What advantage does settling on a Food resource, an extra Food? It depends on the Food resource, right? When one settles on a Tile, one gets the maximum of 2F1H1C and the unimproved tile's base Food, Hammer and Commerce values, right? Other than settling on a Plains Hill, improving the base FHC values of the settled tile seems to have been largely ignored, or at least not discussed. Settling on a Plains Hill Gold should provide 2F2H2C (2F2H3C for Financial Leaders). Thanks for bringing up the settling tile in more detail.

Great build queue for the capital. No wasted Hammers and the 2nd and 3rd Cultural cities get a reasonably early start without impacting the early economy much, unless settled too far away.

Great job getting the Capital's Academy built on turn 54 (BC 1840)! Plus build two Settlers before the Library was built! Bravo!

Base Culture will be generally be highest in a Commerce city with cottages built early and worked continuously. Early settled Great Artists also help a lot. It is hard to build many World Wonders at Deity level even with Bureaucracy and the Industrious trait (I would guess). You listed building seven WWs; they were they built?

My research path is:

Agriculture (if necessary, but it usually is)
Mining
Animal Husbandry
Writing
Alphabet
Civil Service
Music
Liberalism

Researching Music after Civil Service means I'm usually first to Music (though not this time - my research was too slow). Researching Aesthetics myself allows me to build a lot more wonders than would otherwise be possible.

You must be starting with a Leader that has Hunting or Agriculture starting Technologies.

When you research Aesthetics for more WW options, do you continue to Literature first and immediately beeline Civil Service?

If building The Oracle for a Civil Service slingshot, do you really have time to research Aesthetics rather than research CS prerequisites such as Code of Laws and Mathematics? OK, I see that you research Code of Laws and trade it for Mathematics. So does Mansa Musa offer Mathematics in trade early enough?

I've played Elizabeth, Louis XIV, Pericles and Peter for this gauntlet. My best game was Pericles. Industrious/Financial also seems good, but that combination is taken by the Inca.

When playing Elizabeth, I've used Wheel/Pottery as well, but most good starts need Agriculture, and then Animal Husbandry gets you to Writing sooner. Since Pericles starts with Hunting, Animal Husbandry will always get you to Writing sooner, and without Financial Cottages are not as important.

After Alphabet, my priority is Civil Service, since it allows you both more research and more production (for wonders). I usually research Code of Laws myself and trade it for Mathematics.

Glad to see someone else is playing Leaders other than old boring Elizabeth!

Which leaders do you generally play against?

Civil Service should be a priority, but a slingshot seems to be the fastest way there. Since you listed a Great Prophet, it probably came from The Oracle on a success bid to get Civil Service, right?

Since you list Music just before Liberalism, do you research Music or are you able to trade for it?

You didn't mention the your end date; Are you waiting till the gauntlet ends, forgot to mention it or did I miss it?

Excellent write up!

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I occasionally have to research Polytheism, Mathematics, and Code of Laws too if the AI players are stingy and don't want to trade for them.

Mansa Musa can be a very useful Opponent, since he will often offer to trade an advanced Technology (presumably if he's not building a WW that requires it) before any other AIs have it! Also, as Bram mentioned, researching Code of Laws is good, since it can often be traded for Mathematics; I'll add especially with Mansa Musa perhaps? However, in my current game the AIs were very slow about researching Mathematics; it was not offered in trade for at least 10t after I had finished researching Code of Laws. As a result, I switched to Literature and Drama while waiting for Mathematics to be traded.

Slightly off topic, Sitting Bull as an Opponent is not much good for cutting edge Technology trades, but later in the game, he will trade some Gold for obsolete Technologies when some extra Gold in the Treasury can fund the deficit Research/Culture at 100% total (Gold slider 00%).

Sun Tzu Wu