G Major 51

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I tried with Unclethrill's strategy of gett a PA. I was teching like a madman and had Military Tradition at about 1100 AD. Lincoln seemed like the best candidate for a PA, but he would not give me a Defensive Pact. At +15 relations he said "We just don't like you enough." I understand that the PA will say this if the combination of two players will be significantly higher than the next player, but I've never seen a DP with this message before. For what it's worth, Lincoln was #2 behind Ghandi and I was #4 (out of 6 total players). Our combined land area would have been about 35% and our combined population would have been about 40%. It would have been an uphill battle had we DOW Ghandi, but I didn't get the chance to try with the PA. Does anyone have an idea why Lincoln would not give a DP? Are some leaders more receptive to DP than others?

AIs do have different thresholds for accepting Defensive Pacts and Permanent Alliances, but nearly all will accept both at Friendly. In my opinion, Lincoln should accept both a DP and PA at +15 Diplomacy.

Perhaps you had the maximum hidden Diplomatic penalties (-4). That could bring your True Diplomacy down to +11 and that may not be quite enough for Friendly.

Maybe, someone else can explain it better?

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Mesix]

Lincoln was friendly at about +10 to +11. He had been friendly for most of the game. Early on Lincoln was the only AI that I had contact with. I found an unoccupied island and made a colony with 2 cities. By mid game, Lincoln had higher diplo than my colony (due to sharred religion). By the time I met the rest of the AI players, they were all running Free Religion and I stayed with Lincoln's religion in hopes of getting a PA. It never really worked out.

Maybe I'll get a chance to play Gauntlet again next week. I'm busy with school work this weekend. If I do, I'll go for a pangaea Pratorian rush. Even if I don't succeed, it should be a fun game.

 

[Darvon]

First time playing Diety level, blown away by the insane number of units the AI pumps out.

I'll send 8 praets towards the closest city and pass 2x stacks of 10 going the other way. The last game I was stopping and killing those stacks first, and then by the time I'd healed another 2 stacks were coming...

Do you guys just ignore the incoming stacks and go for their cities, or are you pro enough to match the AI for units 1:1...?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

First time playing Diety level, blown away by the insane number of units the AI pumps out.

I'll send 8 praets towards the closest city and pass 2x stacks of 10 going the other way. The last game I was stopping and killing those stacks first, and then by the time I'd healed another 2 stacks were coming...

Do you guys just ignore the incoming stacks and go for their cities, or are you pro enough to match the AI for units 1:1...?

Nobody is that pro unless you cheat. There's a way to mitigate it a bit though: hit it earlier. Roll a favorable start to get prats ASAP. 8 prats is far more meaningfull around 2000 BC to 1500 BC than 500 BC, for example. If you can cut your first target down, you might have enough cities to compete with the AI after that.

 

[oyzar]

Lincoln was friendly at about +10 to +11. He had been friendly for most of the game. Early on Lincoln was the only AI that I had contact with. I found an unoccupied island and made a colony with 2 cities. By mid game, Lincoln had higher diplo than my colony (due to sharred religion). By the time I met the rest of the AI players, they were all running Free Religion and I stayed with Lincoln's religion in hopes of getting a PA. It never really worked out.

Maybe I'll get a chance to play Gauntlet again next week. I'm busy with school work this weekend. If I do, I'll go for a pangaea Pratorian rush. Even if I don't succeed, it should be a fun game.

Lincoln didn't accept a PA because of your colony...

 

[Mesix]

I didn't even get that far. Lincoln wouldn't give me a Defensive Pact because "We just don't like you enough."

 

[unclethrill]

Wow, I've had the worst luck on like every combat in every game in this one. I swear I lose every combat below 95% and 95% to 99% is iffy!!! Dang it, I will get a win!

 

[Lexad]

Lincoln wouldn't give me a Defensive Pact because "We just don't like you enough."

Could be for the same reason.

I've made a test run on this tourny when returned home drunk - far from optimal, but 1st so far.

 

[Mesix]

Maybe you need to get drunk to get a win on this one Unclethrill.

 

[unclethrill]

Either I drink a whole lot more than Lexad or the German beer is less conducive to winning than the Russian wodka.


Though Lexad, I have to say BooYakaah Respect!

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I didn't even get that far. Lincoln wouldn't give me a Defensive Pact because "We just don't like you enough."

What was his disposition w/ your vassal? Don't forget that the game averages the disposition of you and your vassal and doesn't tell you. You can also get WFYABTA and "not like you enough" @ friendly if they're not also friendly w/ all of your vassals...and they might even declare!

The exception is that for some unknown reason, the vassal averaging rule does not apply to diplo wins. That was taken to an extreme in one of the RPC games by madscientist, where somebody declared on him and voted him winner in the same turn...!

But yeah, if Lincoln wasn't friendly w/ your vassal, he wasn't friendly with you. When you see me complaining that the game's interface lies to you and actually misleads you to believe that the -vassals penalty is the only one you get, this is why.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Everyone is probably playing Julius on BTS, but I'm not so sure he is the best choice. Here are some other Leaders I've considered playing:

• Alexander ... - agg/phi - fish/hunt ... - Phalanx (Axeman) .............. - Odeon (Colosseum)
• Augustus .... - ind/imp - fish/mine ... - Praetorian (Swordsman) ...... - Forum (Market)
• Churchill ..... - phi/fin - fish/mine .... - Red Coat (Rifleman) ............ - Stock Exchange (Bank)
• Cyrus ......... - chm/imp - agri/hunt . - Immortal (Chariot) .............. - Apothecary (Grocer)
• Darius I ....... - fin/org - agri/hunt ... - Immortal (Chariot) .............. - Apothecary (Grocer)
• Elizabeth ..... - phi/fin - fish/mine .... - Red Coat (Rifleman) ............ - Stock Exchange (Bank)
• Gilgamesh .... - cre/pro - whee/agri . - Vulture (Axeman) ............... - Ziggurat (Courthouse)
• Hatshepsut .. - spi/cre - whee/agri .. - War Chariot (Chariot) ......... - Obelisk (Monument)
• Isabella ....... - spi/exp - myst/fish ... - Conquistador (Cuirassier) .... - Citadel (Castle)
• Justinian I .... - spi/imp - myst/whee . - Cataphract (Knight) ........... - Hippodrome (Theatre)
• Kublai Khan .. - agg/cre - whee/hunt . - Keshik (Horse Archer) ......... - Ger (Stable)
• Montezuma .. - agg/spi - myst/hunt .. - Jaguar (Sordsman) ............. - Sacrificial Altar (Courthouse)
• Pericles ....... - phi/cre - fish/hunt .... - Phalanx (Axeman) ............. - Odeon (Colosseum)
• Saladin ........ - spi/pro - myst/whee . - Camel Archer (Knight) ......... - Mandrassa (Library)
• Shaka .......... - agg/exp - agri/hunt .. - Impi (Spearman) ............... - Ikhanda (Barracks)
• Sitting Bull .... - phi/pro - fish/agri ..... - Dog Soldier (Axeman) ......... - Totem Pole (Monument)
• Suleiman ...... - phi/imp - whee/agri ... - Janissary (Musketman) ....... - Hammam (Aqueduct)
• Victoria ........ - fin/imp - fish/mine .... - Red Coat (Rifleman) ........... - Stock Exchange (Bank)
• Wang Kon ..... - fin/pro - myst/mine ... - Hwacha (Catapult) ............ - Seowan (University)
• Zara Yaqob ... - cre/org - hunt/mine ... - Oromo Warrior (Musketman) - Stele (Monument)

A nice guide to Unique Units can be found here:

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/uniqueunit.php

It has been updated for BTS, but omits some BTS unique units and contains a few minor errors.

Any comments?

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Who would you put in JC's BTS place?

 

[babaBrian]

Man, this gauntlet is excruciating.

Granted, I'm really green on deity. After a few face plants I played a tiny deity game on marathon since I've never played a deity domination before. Made the mistake of playing that with No City Razing checked, but still managed to pull it out in a decent time while skirting bankruptcy the whole game.

So armed with new-found confidence, I tried Julius again. Got a decent start with 1 gold, iron in my BFC, choked off ~20% of the map (high sea pangea). Even got a Swordmen quest, but got beat to it by one stinkin' turn

I stormed two cities with praets, but it was around 800BC, and the AIs were on the verge of longbows and macemen. It was difficult to decide whether to keep pumping out units or chopping a settler to establish the choke. I decided to chop the settler, but I also built a worker to mine the gold. Probably should have picked off an AI's worker to save the hammers. I had a score in the 500s while most of the AIs were in the high 1000's. I threw in the towel soon after.

I still haven't gotten around to messing with MapFinder. How critical is it to have 2 metals to start?

Congratulations to the brave eight that have made it so far!

I'm going to lick my wounds and play another deity EQM game and then try, try again.

 

[Lexad]

My experience tells me that praets are sufficient to chew through the first couple of AI; cats should help to do the rest of the trick. If you're going beyond that, you hadn't been aggressive enough then.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Who would you put in JC's BTS place?

Right now, I'm strongly leaning towards trying a Philosophical Leader to bulb quickly to critical Military Technologies like Machinery, Civil Service, Feudalism and Guilds. First step would be building a Library in the Capital (Creative trait allows one to do so cheaply) and work 2 Scientists to quickly generate a Great Scientist to build an Academy. Generate additional Great People to bulb moderately expensive Technologies like those mentioned above.

An early unique unit like War Chariots, Immortals, Phalanx, or Vultures would be helpful to subduing the the first 2-3 Civs.

I don't believe that anyone has managed to get through this Gauntlet with just Praetorians. Praetorians can't handle Castles, Longbows, Knights and Macemen alone, can they?

On the other hand, if one is very fast connecting an Iron Mine and building Praetorians, it may be possible to Win this Gauntlet with just Praetorians. Back to using Julius again?

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Lexad]

I don't believe that anyone has managed to get through this Gauntlet with just Praetorians. Praetorians can't handle Castles, Longbows, Knights and Macemen alone, can they?

Not just praets - praets and cats (for the last civ, that is). Do not be afraid to suicide praets. I've never seen a castle in me life, while arbalests, maces, lbows and elephants are quite manageable by CRII and CRIII praets after cat bombing.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Not just praets - praets and cats (for the last civ, that is). Do not be afraid to suicide praets. I've never seen a castle in me life, while arbalests, maces, lbows and elephants are quite manageable by CRII and CRIII praets after cat bombing.

When an AI Civ you need to take out has about six castles, you'll understand why Catapults may be insufficient and Praetorians are even enough to protect your stacks from Macemen, War Elephants and even Musketmen. When I took out the second last Civ required, Asoka, he was upgrading to Riflemen when he was down to his last three Cities. Asoka should have been enough, but his neighbor's Culture was so large that even a Great Artist was not enough to push back the Borders, so I had to take out a 5th AI Civ (out of 7).

How many Civs are you playing against?

Again, if one is quick enough, Praetorians may be enough. Who needs those stinking Catapults.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Lexad]

When an AI Civ you need to take out has about six castles

I've already finished the game and have seen no castles, thank you.

I played against 4 AI. Otherwise AI box in, start to develop techs instead of expansion and build garrisons.

And no, I don't think praets only will be enough - at arbalest-macemen-walls/60% culture level the efficiency of a suicide praet drops too low, you need a cat for collateral. And 15 cats will give you an edge even against castles.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

I've already finished the game and have seen no castles, thank you.

I played against 4 AI. Otherwise AI box in, start to develop techs instead of expansion and build garrisons.

And no, I don't think praets only will be enough - at arbalest-macemen-walls/60% culture level the efficiency of a suicide praet drops too low, you need a cat for collateral. And 15 cats will give you an edge even against castles.

Seems similar to my exprerience so far... I am in 150 AD in my first attempt, Roosy is down to 1 city, Beth to 2, and I am currently on Gandhi... (Ashoka is the last AI). I feel phants are a nice complement to the praets/cats army once they start to produce Xbows. but with that, I feel we should be safe until rifling...