G Major 51

I've already finished the game and have seen no castles, thank you.

I played against 4 AI. Otherwise AI box in, start to develop techs instead of expansion and build garrisons.

Perhaps, 4 AI is better. With 4 AI, the AI will be spamming Settlers to fill-in nearby spaces whereas with 7 AI, there's not much space for each AI to have more than four Cities on average and thus the AIs will build more Walls and Castles as a result.

And no, I don't think praets only will be enough - at arbalest-macemen-walls/60% culture level the efficiency of a suicide praet drops too low, you need a cat for collateral. And 15 cats will give you an edge even against castles.

Yes, you are probably right.

Is anyone not building Courthouses? I suspect they may be required for Cities far from the Capital. In any case, they are cheap with the Organized trait of Julius.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
I have decided that Roos is a horrible choice for this one.Every single game I've tried (not many unfortunately) no matter how deep I run into anyone else, Roos will DoW on me and he always rolls deep. Too bad all my MF files are with him in them. Gonna try with Ghandi, Asoka, Lincoln and Peter. Hopefully I'll have a chance to get a couple more attempts in before the close.
 
I need some help :). This one is too tough for a peacenik like me.

I am playing JC, BTS, Pangea, High Seas, Tropical, Solid coast, with Lizzie, Gandhi, Roo, and Lincoln as opponents.

I´m typically building 3-4 workers and then chopping like mad. I only build one city (assuming that iron is in the fat cross). I only build a second city if I need it to grab the iron.

I´ve tried 10-15 times (tweaking the approach each time), but with more or less the same result each time. I´m building stacks of praets, but I always seem to run out of steam around 300-100 BC when I seem to come up against bigger stacks of axemen in hill cities. If I´m lucky and my first opponent only has archers/chariots some time the games run on to 500 AD etc, when longbowmen/macemen start appearing.

I´d like some pointers if you´d be kind enough to help.

a) Do you just build praets, or do you throw in a few axemen to leven the mix?

b) How many units do you leave behind to defend cities that you have captured?

c) Do you build a barracks in the capital city?

d) Do you build barracks in captured cities?

e) What do you do with captured cities i.e. churn out more praets or try to develop them for commerce etc?

f) What do you do with your great generals?

g) How do you get to construction. I´m not refering to the research path but rather whether you build a library and run scientists, or whether you simply research using your ill gotten gains from captured cities.

h) Is it worth researching Monarchy/Fuedalism?

i) I´m running map finder, and typically looking for something with freshwater corn and at least 7 Hills (of different types). What should I be looking for in a start position?

j) How do you deal with macemen? They make mincemeat of my praets?

k) How do you use your cats? Do you reduce the city defences, or do you go for collateral damage. If the former, how many turns are you prepared to sit reducing the defences? (I´m finding that enemy cats are busy making mincemeat of my stacks whilst I attempt to reduce the city defences). How many cats should I have in my stack?

That´s rather a long list I know; but I´m going to need every bit of help (and luck) to get a win out of this one :-)
 
Hi Pious Pete,

I'm in the same boat as you, so thank you for posting the good questions. I'm really in no place to give you advice since I haven't come close to winning this, but I have tried to get some lessons learned under my belt on marathon tiny dom and conquest games. I've read from several that it's good to look for good choke points. I've never had to pay much heed to this on lower difficulties, but I found that to be the biggest difference between a win and a loss for me.

So instead of going for a solid pangea perhaps a natural or pressed (I think I remembered those right) would give you a better chance of finding some narrow land areas where you can plop a city and keep the other civs from taking over the entire world. Still, I've only been successful at this on a tiny map with two opponents. Typically I build a barracks while growing my capital to 2 or 3. Research Bronze working, then whip and/or chop two settlers to box in one opponent. If I'm lucky they get stuck without any iron or copper. Then the key is to not open borders so they can't expand. I research Iron working after BW, hook up iron, and then start whip chopping praets to send towards the civ I wasn't lucky enough to box in. Once I wipe them out then I send em all back towards the one I boxed in.

I haven't wrapped my head around dealing with 4 civs and the size of a small map. I end up breaking even with a 0% science slider toward the end of my tiny victories and I don't always make it to CoL for courthouses. Obviously I'm doing something wrong, but I either get out armied and have decent science, or I have an army that's good for the time being but no economy to work towards the next generation of units.

I've also wondered about Great Generals. I've always just settled them in a production city simply because I don't understand the rules of attaching him to a stack of units. If anybody has a link to a good tutorial on great generals, it would be appreciated.

Looking forward to what the experts have to say.
 
In most military games, I tend to attach the 1st GG to a scout with no other units present in the stack (exp granted from teh GG is divided among all the troops present in a tile, so it is important to have no troops in the tile with the scout when the GG is attached). A scout is quick to build, moves 2 spaces, and will never defend the stack unless all the other units are on the verge of death (in which case you have lost the stack anyway). The promos you give the scout are Combat I and Healer I, II, and III. Keep him with your advancing troops and they will heal much faster to continue conquering.

I generally settle the rest of my GG for the most part.
 
I am playing JC, BTS, Pangea, High Seas, Tropical, Solid coast, with Lizzie, Gandhi, Roo, and Lincoln as opponents.

Tropical does slow down the AI Civs that started in jungle, but doesn't affect the AI Civs that started in floodplains much. Also, there will be far fewer Forests to chop in conquered Cities.

I´m typically building 3-4 workers and then chopping like mad. I only build one city (assuming that iron is in the fat cross). I only build a second city if I need it to grab the iron.

Building 3 Workers to start seems fine. You will capture many more.

I´ve tried 10-15 times (tweaking the approach each time), but with more or less the same result each time. I´m building stacks of praets, but I always seem to run out of steam around 300-100 BC when I seem to come up against bigger stacks of axemen in hill cities. If I´m lucky and my first opponent only has archers/chariots some time the games run on to 500 AD etc, when longbowmen/macemen start appearing.

When practical attack AI Civ Capitals first. You should have CR3 Praetorians before trying to attack Hill Cities with Def 40 or greater or Cities with Def 60 or greater. Also, Catapults will help a lot when Longbows and Macemen appear.

I´d like some pointers if you´d be kind enough to help.

a) Do you just build praets, or do you throw in a few axemen to leven the mix?

I build Axemen only for Great General Medics.

When you encounter Axemen, promote Praetorians with Combat 1 and Shock. A Praetorian's strength of 8 is already a match for Axeman 5 +50% = 7.5 roughly.

b) How many units do you leave behind to defend cities that you have captured?

Usually only one unit, unless there is a significant chance of a counter-attack. For high risk cities, build Walls.

c) Do you build a barracks in the capital city?

Yes. You want to promote Praetorians with CR1 usually right from the start. You should complete this Barracks before Iron is connected.

d) Do you build barracks in captured cities?

Build Barracks in all heavy Hammer Cities, Cities with many Forests to chop and Cities with Great Military Instructors.

In all other Cities, just Pop rush Praetorians without Barracks for use as Suicide units when you don't want to risk losing a highly promoted Praetorian.

e) What do you do with captured cities i.e. churn out more praets or try to develop them for commerce etc?

Since Julius' Organized trait allows cheap Courthouses, I usually build those first, usually via Pop rushing Angry Citizens away.

After a Courthouse, I usually build a Barracks followed by more Praetorians or build Spys and even Missionaries (to spread the Theocracy bonus to heavy Hammer/Great Military Instructor Cities).

f) What do you do with your great generals?

The first Great General is always settled into the Capital as a Great Military Instructor. Second, Third _or_ Fourth becomes an Axeman Super Medic (Combat 1, Medic 1, Medic 2, and Medic 3). I usually don't waste a Great General on a second Super Medic. For ancillary stacks, I just use a normal Medic (Combat 1 and Medic 1) or Area Medic (Combat 1, Medic 1 and Medic 2) or Woodsman III (Woodsman 1, Woodsman 2, Woodsman 3). All Great Generals except the one for the Super Medic are settled into Heavy Hammer Cities and Cities with many Forests.

g) How do you get to construction. I´m not refering to the research path but rather whether you build a library and run scientists, or whether you simply research using your ill gotten gains from captured cities.

I build a Library, run two Scientists until a Great Scientist is generated and use him to build an Academy in the Capital. Once the Academy is built, Construction will be completed very quickly. However, if you plan to stop at Construction, building a Library and Academy is probably not worthwhile.

h) Is it worth researching Monarchy/Feudalism?

After, completing Construction, Feudalism is a good goal to enable Vassalage, not just for the Civ wide +2 Experience per military unit built it provides, but more importantly for the free maintenance it provides for as many as 20 more units (20 Gpt less paid).

i) I´m running map finder, and typically looking for something with freshwater corn and at least 7 Hills (of different types). What should I be looking for in a start position?

I'd say two different Food Resources, at least two different Mines (Gems and Gold), and up to four Grassland Hills and up to two Plains Hills. When these different Resources are connected, you will be able to support 1 more Population.
You need the two Commerce Mines to boost Research initially and Wealth later on.

j) How do you deal with macemen? They make mincemeat of my praets?

Drill Catapult versus a Maceman in the field. City Raider Catapult when the Maceman is in a City.

Otherwise, use at least twice as many Praetorians with appropriate Promotions than when Macemen are not present.

k) How do you use your cats? Do you reduce the city defences, or do you go for collateral damage. If the former, how many turns are you prepared to sit reducing the defences? (I´m finding that enemy cats are busy making mincemeat of my stacks whilst I attempt to reduce the city defences). How many cats should I have in my stack?

Another option is building Spys and place a Spy or two there a few turns before your stack gets there. When your Catapults are ready to attack, use the Spy to support a City Revolt. If successful, the City goes into disorder for 1 turn and Cultural/Walls/Castle Defense goes to 00.

Normal Catapult Bombardment reduces the Cultural Defense by 8. When there are Walls, this reduction is downsized by -50% to 4. When there is a Castle, the reduction is downsized by an additional -25% (-75% including Walls) to 2. For example, it would take 15 Catapults to reduce a City with Walls, from a Cultural Defense of 60 down to 00 in a single turn.

That´s rather a long list I know; but I´m going to need every bit of help (and luck) to get a win out of this one :-)

Please ask more questions, if anything isn't perfectly clear.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Wow. nice primer there
 
Is it better to play with No City Razing so that you get to keep a city even if you have an early strike on a new size 1 city or a city that the AI whipped down to 1? The downside is you have to temper your destruction so you don't get too many cities too fast.

On a tiny map, No City Razing seems like a more sane option, but I've been playing without it checked for this gauntlet so that I always have the incentive to hack down the AIs with haste.

I wish the HOF game submissions had an NCR flag in addition to BB, RB, NV, etc.

Thank you Sun Tzu and Mesix for the helpful advice.
 
@Sun Tzu Wu

Thanks very much for taking the trouble to prepare such a detailed reply. It is very much appreciated.

I´ve read it several times over with my morning cup of coffee (or rather cups of coffee). There is plenty to mull over, and I´m itching to try out some of your recommendations. Unfortunately, the powers that be have decreed that I have to do my chores first.

I do have a couple of follow up questions which I´ll pick up in separate threads.

Thanks again

Pete
 
Tropical does slow down the AI Civs that started in jungle, but doesn't affect the AI Civs that started in floodplains much. Also, there will be far fewer Forests to chop in conquered Cities.

O.K. I understand the pros and cons; what I am not sure is whether on balance you are recommending not to use a Tropical start, or whether it is much of a muchness either way.
 
I build a Library, run two Scientists until a Great Scientist is generated and use him to build an Academy in the Capital. Once the Academy is built, Construction will be completed very quickly. However, if you plan to stop at Construction, building a Library and Academy is probably not worthwhile.

This is a key tip for me. I´ve tried both ways. Taking the time out to build the library (and using citizens for research) obviously slows the creation of the praet stack. However, without this it can take an eternity to get to construction/cats, which is a factor as to why my attacks are running out of steam. I shall certainly focus on the library route from now on.

However, this does give rise to a couple more questions regarding the research path.

Presumably the path should be:-

Ag/AH as necessary to hook up food resources.
Roads
Bronze Working for chopping
Pot/Writing to get library
Iron Working for praets
Math/Constr for cats
COL for Courthouses
Mon/Fued

I presume that you want library before praets since the sooner you get the library going in this strategy the better.

I´m not sure about the Construction/COL order. I presume that the sooner you get cats the better and that COL/Courthouses doesn´t really start coming into play until you are capturing significant numbers of enemy cities.

Also, I´ve skipped Alphabet because I´m assuming that I don´t really want to be trading with the opponents I am about to attack, but I´m not sure about this.
 
Normal Catapult Bombardment reduces the Cultural Defense by 8. When there are Walls, this reduction is downsized by -50% to 4. When there is a Castle, the reduction is downsized by an additional -25% (-75% including Walls) to 2. For example, it would take 15 Catapults to reduce a City with Walls, from a Cultural Defense of 60 down to 00 in a single turn.

OK. Useful calculation. But do you really have stacks of 15 cats?

Perhaps a more pertinant question is: do you always ensure that you have enough cats in the stack when attacking a city to reduce the cultural defence to 0% in one go?

Presumably this means that when you get to Construction, for a while you stop building praets while you build up a large stack of cats.
 
Hi,

I will let SunTzu for the most detailed answer as he is one of the reference for this type of game,
but first techs should be BW -> The wheel -> IW. you want your citizens to eat fish the first 3000 years, not be researching Agri/AH with Rome :). After that, sometimes sailing is usefull to instantly connect resources and for TRs, sometimes you want to do pot -> writing. Sometimes, you want to stop teching completely after IW and just accumulate gold and build praets. (I have done it in immortal, ask SunTzu for deity :)).

Cheers
 
I would get IW before the Wheel. What good is it to build roads if you don't know where you need to build them too. The most important thing is to find the Iron and get a settler near it. You can build the road after the Iron is mined.

BW > IW > the Wheel.
 
I've never played above Monarch before. I tried a quick test run of this one last night, and: Wow! The number of units they generate is downright insane. I went with Hattie on Warlords and kind of a bad start location just to try it out. No gold/gems, no horses in BFC. Popped second city for horses, conquered two of Asoka's quite easily by 1700 BC, but I'm already out of steam at this point. There's no way I can take his cap since my army's stretched thin, and my research is in the gutter. I figure I can do quite a bit better with gold/gems and/or horses in the BFC. Still, I seriously doubt it's gonna happen.

I'm wondering about Hattie for this... Seems to make sense to me, because of normal speed / fast unit / easy research path, plus creative. No?
 
I've never played above Monarch before. I tried a quick test run of this one last night, and: Wow! The number of units they generate is downright insane. I went with Hattie on Warlords and kind of a bad start location just to try it out. No gold/gems, no horses in BFC. Popped second city for horses, conquered two of Asoka's quite easily by 1700 BC, but I'm already out of steam at this point. There's no way I can take his cap since my army's stretched thin, and my research is in the gutter. I figure I can do quite a bit better with gold/gems and/or horses in the BFC. Still, I seriously doubt it's gonna happen.

I'm wondering about Hattie for this... Seems to make sense to me, because of normal speed / fast unit / easy research path, plus creative. No?

If you are new to deity I'd definitely go with BtS. You have a higher happy cap and the AI gets less bonuses.

The only thing that is better about warlords is that they don't whip defenders as often during war/siege.
 
If you are new to deity I'd definitely go with BtS. You have a higher happy cap and the AI gets less bonuses.

The only thing that is better about warlords is that they don't whip defenders as often during war/siege.

I would definitely recommend BtS as well. The initial AI expansion is much slower without the second settler. I didn't find AI whipping to be a large problem with Rome. An additional unfortified, unpromoted archer is just target practice for praetorians. Also, AIs discover CoL and switch to Caste System very quickly at Deity. I saw maybe 3 or 4 whipped units in my game. There are also a few more early wonders for the AIs to build in BtS.

Egypt is an interesting choice. I don't know if its possible to grab enough territory early - before longbows and walls make war chariot attacks suicidal - but I wish you the best of luck.
 
I would definitely recommend BtS as well. The initial AI expansion is much slower without the second settler. I didn't find AI whipping to be a large problem with Rome. An additional unfortified, unpromoted archer is just target practice for praetorians. Also, AIs discover CoL and switch to Caste System very quickly at Deity. I saw maybe 3 or 4 whipped units in my game. There are also a few more early wonders for the AIs to build in BtS.

Egypt is an interesting choice. I don't know if its possible to grab enough territory early - before longbows and walls make war chariot attacks suicidal - but I wish you the best of luck.

I want to get the start that you got. The AI always have 2 settlers in my games and by the time i get Praetorians there usually isn't an unpromoted archer to be found.
 
O.K. I understand the pros and cons; what I am not sure is whether on balance you are recommending not to use a Tropical start, or whether it is much of a muchness either way.

You're not likely to make the top three using a Tropical setting.

However, Tropical really slows down AI expansion and that would probably make a Win easier to achieve:

1) Your start should have close to 20 Forests inside Ring 3 (36 Tiles total) for Temperate setting. It may not be possible to get that many Forests in Ring 3 with Tropical setting, but try to use a start with "maximum" Forests, whatever that happens to be for a Tropical World.

2) Target the AI first that will be slowed down by Jungle the _least_, yet is close enough to reach.

Otherwise, the strategy should be about the same as for a Temperate World, except obviously building for both you and the AIs will be slowed down by far fewer Forests.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
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