G-Major I

[Robert Smith]

Broadcast Tower, which is also +100%.

Thy, last game a was finish long before INDUSTRIAL ERA

Ah, to second city or not to second city. That is the question.

At first glance, I can see the appeal - a bit more research

I think the answers is depending on difficulty. I have been playing culture game on all levels 1-8. My last game was a 1530 AD settler OCC game. Due to the low difficulty there was a lack of money and very few RA so my last tech was metallurgy. On emperor i will go for OCC. But for next low level game i will try with 3 cities for inc. research and aim for Cristo Redentor and Broadcast Tower together they will compensate the 20% inc. city culture cost.

 

[walkerjks]

Who are you preferred AIs in this? I'm struggling with broke AIs in my current game (only got 3 RAs completed before turn 100, which is glacial pace from what I am used to). Songhai has been the most consistent for me, while others I've tried (America, China, Egypt, England, India, Iriquois) are hit or miss depending on the game. It's frustrating to get a good start (such as 3 wine + 1 silver) and have the game blowup because the AIs can't seem to create cash flow. Grrr...

 

[Martin Alvito]

Persia is always loaded. Be warned that Darius will usually try to steal your allies in the late game.

Try designating certain AIs as your trading partners and others as your research partners. Take back per turn from the trading partners and use that to pump up your research partners as needed.

 

[Dinhcara]

I try to have the songhai and suleilman in my games.. Both are pretty consistent trading partners and you cant keep both pretty happy most of the game

Edit: Washington is also good for money as well as China (if you can keep her happy and she doesnt want your land)

 

[Dinhcara]

Well I think I will be submitting my final try at this tonight... I need to learn a bit more about RA slingshots and prioritizing gold...

I had an amazing start with having 3 wine, furs and dyes within 3 tiles of my city and still could not pull it off as fast as should be possible with this start.

 

[walkerjks]

Nice start... things seemed to be going great... best finish by....

8 turns.

I forgot how brutal these gauntlets were (haven't done one since early Civ 4).

In any case, thanks for the Ottoman and Persia advice. They were largely great (though Persia went all "guarded" on me - which at least was better than Songhai deciding that a little war would be in order - I had o idea that the camel archer was such a nice unit). 21 RAs completed in the first 206 turns seemed pretty good to me.

 

[vexing]

i've been avoiding: france, greece, india, russia, arabia, iroquois

i'm sad because i had a skilldorado start and fundamentally screwed it up early and had to scrap it.

so far i've submitted an early 1600s win, it wasn't a spectacular game. i'll be trying to refine it and should be able to get into 1500s.

i'm also going to be trying a completely different style and see how it works out.

 

[walkerjks]

Let us know where "early 1600s" places once it is accepted. It has to be near the top (my 1775 AD win, which I've since improved on by a whole 8 turns is in 3rd for the moment).

My observations so far:

1) Start matters. A lot. Wine/incense is probably critical for a fast win as a monastery potentially produces more culture than Stonehenge. So inland river with multiple wine/incense and plenty of hills and some wheat/cows/sheep may be my ideal start.

2) AIs matter, but you have no idea who will be consistently broke until turn 100 or so. This is impossible to reroll. Grrrr.

3) 2nd city is situational. Sometimes it makes sense, sometimes it doesn't. If the second city has wine/incense, the choice becomes a bit easier.

4) Arabia is very solid. I'll be curious what civs are used for the winning times.

5) Stonehenge, Louvre, Cristo are the dominant wonders. Oracle can be tricky to get, even at Emperor. Sistine is overrated, but not useless.

 

[Dinhcara]

I'd be surprised if the top few games did not have marble within 2 tiles of the capital. My most recent submission was the game I mentioned previously (3 wine, fur, dyes) was an improvement on my previous but by no means perfect.

I think Arabia or Siam have a chance to take it. It seems like the AI in emperor are not completely loaded with cash to take full advantage of Arabia's UA. My previous submission was a 3 city Siam win... Though I think the third city was a mistake.

 

[Neuro]

My submission (which hasn't been Checked yet) is a Turn 229 (1595 AD) win using Siam. I was waiting to see how it placed before I did the write-up, but it was definitely a strong starting location, with Wine and Marble and a nice long river, lots of hills nearby, and 3 Wheat (two on the river). I'm gonna do an Egypt one next, to see how it compares, but so far I've not had any luck. Twice now I've lost the GL, even with Egypt, which is enough to make me restart. I'd love to manually select my opponents, but it takes too long to set it up, and I restart a lot looking for good locations.

 

[Martin Alvito]

The fastest time is going to require a strong Monastery. Marble is helpful, but I'm not convinced it's necessary.

I never get the GL and I don't care. I never get the Oracle and that does annoy me, but there isn't much I can do about it. Other builds take priority early on.

I agree with walkerjks's Wonder list. I'm surprised that you don't mention the Porcelain Tower, though. That thing is essential.

I am not totally sold on Arabia for Emperor. I am betting that Siam in a strong start takes the crown. However, I think that more starts are playable as Arabia, so you'll get more shots at it that way (less time rerolling, more time playing).

Burial Tombs don't have an Artist slot, and that makes Egypt bad IMO. Speeding up Wonders doesn't pay for delaying the first Landmark, especially since the only Wonders that are time-critical are going to get GE'd anyway.

EDIT: Turn 233, Siam. Lost a turn to fail terraforming and had trouble working Sistine into the build order, otherwise game was pretty tight. 3 Incense and a Marble (after burning a turn to get that site), two Plains Wheat and a Deer, IDK what more you could ask for. Guess I just need to play a bit better and/or get the Oracle.

Strategy was basically a Patronage Gambit except I get a GE for Stonehenge instead of popping Theology/Civil Service.

As with Neuro, it hasn't been verified yet.

i've been avoiding: france, greece, india, russia, arabia, iroquois

Yup, those are all very bad.

 

[Marcelvv]

I had a T245 finish. It is not checked jet. It seems like to be in third place so far.

I used siam with a 1 city + liberty start for the GE. I am sure it can be done a lot better with a better start, because I didn't have any marble or wine/incense. I had 508 culture/turn max.

 

[walkerjks]

I've never made a strong play for the Porcelain Tower, but I can see the appeal and will start working it into my games. Tech blocking gets so sloppy at the Electricity/Replaceable Parts/Railroad level and Refrigeration/Telegraph/Radio level. Oxford cleans up the mess a little bit, but a GS would neatly solve some problems.

So, assuming I have Porcelain built, when I get Steam Power (usually get Biology earlier), I can block Replacement Parts and have 2 RAs left to guarantee to pop Electricity and pick up Telegraph and Radio for free. That's about 2 RAs less than I currently use at that point and I arrive there a few turns earlier, so earlier Cristo for extra culture savings. 400 hammers traded for a variable, but nice chunk of culture seems like a great trade.

Oxford + 2 GSs would obviously completely clear up the blocking mess as you could just pop Electricity, Radio, and Telegraph without RAs at all. Might be worth generating a single GS. 4 fewer RAs would be enough cash to buy broadcast towers and, again, more time saved. I just hate slowing down GA production, but earlier Cristo does help to offset delayed landmarks.

 

[Martin Alvito]

Oxford + 2 GSs would obviously completely clear up the blocking mess as you could just pop Electricity, Radio, and Telegraph without RAs at all. Might be worth generating a single GS.

I've been popping out a GS, a GE and a GA simultaneously. With a quick Windmill, you get a second GE right on time for Cristo.

 

[Max M.]

I submitted a T234 game. Actually, for this one I went for "1 city + Tradition" (just to see how bad it could be). Well, not that bad - Tradition/Marble combo let me to build all important wonders except Hagia Sofia (which I had to skip intentionally to get other things faster). Had no problems getting SH/GL/Oracle - but it's not surprise since I prefer silver (or gold/gems) to wine/incense so my early production was as high as possible (but at cost of less culture in the end of course).

 

[walkerjks]

I've been popping out a GS, a GE and a GA simultaneously. With a quick Windmill, you get a second GE right on time for Cristo.

Oh goody. One more thing to micromanage (though this shouldn't too hard).

Is the triple pop people #2, 3, and 4 (with #1 being an intermediate GE)? I suspect that it almost has to be as getting 200 Engineer points isn't so bad, but 300 might be a stretch.

That leaves time for only a single useful GA after the triple pop, I'm assuming. Hmmm, going to try and figure out the value of each GA in my build 1 GE and GA everything else game vs. this strategy.

The GE value is easy enough to figure out (Cristo 10 turns earlier = reduction on 2 SPs = 1000 or so culture), plus 10 turns of extra hammers for any happiness, food, or gold buildings you've put off.

The GS value is Telegraph is roughly 8 turns earlier, as at this stage of the game, I've been having 4 RAs in any 30 turn period. So 800 culture or so directly. Saving on 2 RAs (got to have two as I can never get Replaceable Parts and Railroad blocked - So you block Replaceable due to Flilght following it and buy an insurance RA in case Railroad pops) is roughly 700 or so in cash (I assume I'll have to overpay for 1). My very rough cultural CS alliance cash value for later alliances is 1.33 culture/gold (2 for Siam), so that's another 1400 culture. Total for Siam: 2200 culture.

I'm actually kind of shocked at the value that a Porcelain Tower and generated GS bring to the game. Porcelain Tower is worth 9 turns. The GS is less as you have to subtract off the opportunity cost of delayed GAs, but I bet the math works out on the GSs side anyway. But that's a lot of turns I've been leaving on the table.

I'm less convinced of the value of the GE. It's only 4 turns in savings before you factor in delayed GAs. I really need to pin down the opportunity costs on this.

 

[Max M.]

Speaking of GE, I think it's curious to mention that in that my game above I was keeping my culture before the Redentor so small so that I lost no policies while building the CR (11 turns or so).
I'm not sure if it's optimal (probably it is not) - but it's fun

 

[Firvulag]

Geez I really need to learn to play better by the sounds of some of your results. I just can't generate enough money. In one game I got 4 RAs by turn 110, but hadn't allied any CS at all.

I can't seem to make any deals with the AI that make me money, and the stupid Barbs keep coming in and pillaging my Luxuries almost before I get a chance to use them.

And as for getting a good starting spot, best one tonight had 2 spice, 1 silver (and 3 cattle, 1 deer just to be frustrating). There wasn't a good spot anywhere near so it ended up being a 1 city attempt. needed 3 more policies when I was killed in 2 turns by England. around 1910...

 

[walkerjks]

OK, calculated the opportunity cost of extra non-GA specialists.

Here are the basic assumptions - artist specialist points will be roughly 25 at this point in the game (you presumably can run 4 specialists, have national epic, a garden, and the democracy SP). I'm leaving out Hagia.

Every extra non-GA specialist adds 100 to the cost of subsequent GAs. So, the delay on the first GA (after the non-GA) is 4 turns. The delay on the next is 8 turns (it starts 4 turns later and takes 100 more points than otherwise). The delay on another is 12 turns.

With multiple non-GAs, this scales linearly, so GS + GE = 8 turn delay on 1, 16 turn delay on another, and 24 turn delay on a third, etc.

Assuming a GA is worth 24 cpt (base 6, with a 4x mulltiplier - With Sistine it's 26 cpt) we can do a straight-forward calculation:

popping GS alone = 288 culture (2 additional GAs) or 576 culture (3 additional GAs) opportunity cost
popping GS + GE = 576 culture (2 additional GAs) or 1154 culture (3 additional GAs) opportunity cost

Since we're talking turn 160ish here, you only have 50 turns of culturing to go to get a turn 230 win, so I can't see how you can generate 3 more GAs anyway. So a synchronized GA, GE, GS pop does look optimal, as long as you can do it without putting artist specialists "on hold" for very long waiting for the engineer points to be generated (I don't care about pausing the science ones). Taking a culture specialist off results in a 6 or 9 (2x or 3x multiplier at this stage) culture loss per specialist per turn.

I think I'm thinking through all this correctly.

 

[vexing]

Let us know where "early 1600s" places once it is accepted. It has to be near the top

it is first atm, clearly it'll be beaten by neuro's... but then again it'll also be beaten by myself when i play better and have a better start =) i had no marble or incense/wine, i did however have 3 cows and 2 horses within early borders for some good early growth and production with stable.