G-Major I

[vexing]

OK, calculated the opportunity cost of extra non-GA specialists.

if the specialists have immediate value multipop is a gain, and you should always aim for multipop for your last specialists because there is almost no loss (just worked specialist slot vs tile).

 

[Martin Alvito]

Is the triple pop people #2, 3, and 4 (with #1 being an intermediate GE)? I suspect that it almost has to be as getting 200 Engineer points isn't so bad, but 300 might be a stretch.

No. It's #1, #2 and #3. I need a GE for the Louvre, and I mean need because the build order is a trainwreck at that point. Delaying the construction of anything is very bad.

So I get a Workshop, delay the first GA by a few turns (which doesn't hurt too badly since I have Constitution at this point but nothing else) and juggle the Uni/Wat's Scientist slots, then never work a Scientist again unless I need them to avoid screwing up a Research Agreement.

I'm less convinced of the value of the GE. It's only 4 turns in savings before you factor in delayed GAs. I really need to pin down the opportunity costs on this.

The GE delays the acquisition of successive GAs by about four turns each. The GE doesn't provide a huge savings, but you're better off delaying the GAs than hard building Cristo.

 

[walkerjks]

The GE delays the acquisition of successive GAs by about four turns each.

The delays pile up with each subsequent GA - 4 turns for the first, 8 for the second (because you started it 4 turns later than normal and it costs 100 points more than normal), 12 for the 3rd (because you start it 8 turns later and it costs 100 more)... So you actually lose a total of 24 landmark turns if you get 3 GAs after you get a GE (compared to not getting the GE at all).

It's still a relatively modest cost, as long as you aren't churning out lots of GAs after the GE.

 

[Martin Alvito]

The delays pile up with each subsequent GA - 4 turns for the first, 8 for the second (because you started it 4 turns later than normal and it costs 100 points more than normal), 12 for the 3rd (because you start it 8 turns later and it costs 100 more)...

Yes, thank you for catching the math error on the second GA.

I'm only getting one more meaningful GA after the GE before starting Utopia. The GS is the specialist that hurts, but the ability to reliably get to Broadcast Tower is worth quite a bit. The GE for Cristo is minor icing on the cake.

An alternative approach would be to go Rationalism for Scientific Revolution, but I don't know which tree you give up for it. Not going Liberty for the GE would be ideal, but I find that I'm lucky to get Stonehenge even with it and the build order is cluttered during that period.

I have no idea how you could reliably get SH, the GL and the Oracle all by hard-building them, even with Egypt, Aristocracy and Marble. I've tried it, and doing so neglects other important setup tasks.

 

[vexing]

i'm really curious to see what combination of tactics ends up winning this.

 

[walkerjks]

An alternative approach would be to go Rationalism for Scientific Revolution, but I don't know which tree you give up for it.

Perhaps counter-intuitively, I've considered skipping Piety (you can't have both at the same time anyway). Mandate of Heaven culture isn't multiplies anyway, so I haven't been getting that until late as it stands. Once I really get all the culture alliances and keep a copy of some of my resources (when I no longer need the cash), the culture is non-trivial, but that is very late. The golden age is nice, but not essential. The 2 free social policies are obviously the big thing. Paying roughly 5700 culture more for 2 extra SPs is probably a loser, but I've seriously considered it.

 

[vexing]

Perhaps counter-intuitively, I've considered skipping Piety (you can't have both at the same time anyway).

i recommend everyone try this, and skip freedom as well =)

 

[walkerjks]

i recommend everyone try this, and skip freedom as well =)

I never said I recommend it. IN a strategy guide thread (I won't name names), somebody suggested going into Rationalism to get the 2 free techs and then switching to Piety. Um, no. To get the 2 free techs when most useful (late) costs you ~8300 culture. The 1 turn of anarchy isn't so bad as you actually still get culture. You could get Secularism fairly early, which is a non-trivial amount of science, but that doesn't change the ultimate cost of the two free techs late play - 8300 culture (more or less depending on your # of SPs when you approach Electricity. I think I'll pass on this strategy.

I will also pass on the skip Piety altogether strategy. As I said, 5700 culture (+ several hundred MoH culture + 600 more if you don't have The Oracle) is an expensive price to pay for some extra bulbs in mid-game and 2 free techs in the late game.

 

[Martin Alvito]

I have now managed to botch a HOT Skillderado game by screwing up RA blocking. It even had Coal.

Mandate of Heaven is garbage.

Ditching Piety or Freedom is crazy talk.

As I see it, the questions on the table:

- Stonehenge is seriously screwing up early SP acquisition. I can't see how to live without the GE point, though, because I really don't want to rush to Metal Casting or put off the Louvre. This needs some thought.
- Early Aqueduct/Ironworks or early Wat/Louvre/Opera House/Museum/Hermitage. Pick one. Big trade-offs either way.
- Can Arabia get to CR and Broadcast Tower fast enough to make it worthwhile to throw everything at doing so? If not, Siam all the way.
- Patronage? There are arguments for and against on Emperor.

 

[vexing]

I never said I recommend it. IN a strategy guide thread (I won't name names), somebody suggested going into Rationalism to get the 2 free techs and then switching to Piety. Um, no.

oh, yeah, i only got a 1605 win with this. what do i know? =p

 

[Martin Alvito]

Taking Scientific Revolution is potentially viable. That's where you go if you ditch Patronage. It doesn't matter if Rationalism is active or not; there's nothing there you actually need. You're just doing it to get to one of the two critical points in the tree sooner.

 

[walkerjks]

oh, yeah, i only got a 1605 win with this. what do i know? =p

Wait, wait, wait... lightbulb goes on... is the strategy to fill Rationalism and then switch to Piety and the filled Rationalism tree still counts for 1 of the 5 trees? Um, yikes.

 

[vexing]

yes. that's the strat you take left freedom first then start rationalism and it should time out so you get scientific revolution around the time you're pushing for telegraph/radio. i did this in my 1605 game, however i am now thinking it's a suboptimal strat.

 

[Martin Alvito]

You're giving up a lot by going Rationalism. Taking Rationalism means passing on either a GE or multiple, random Great People.

Whether or not it's worth it depends on how well positioned you are to take advantage of an earlier Broadcast Tower and Cristo Redentor. That can be hard to know thirty or forty turns in advance.

Alternately, you can lose the GS and get the Porcelain Tower out of the queue.

 

[FiveAces]

I have tried 2 so far. Both 1city + tradition since no good 2nd city location.

First - arabia, 5 incense, balanced CS and RA's, was building utopia on target for t247- when Siam DOW'd. Abandoned b/c thought I could easily do better.

Second - egypt, el dorado, no marble, no monastery played pretty well, ai's stayed relatively wealthy, will win t259 (building utopia). Not good enough. Skipped CS buying until very late, put all $$ into RA's. I think this is not ideal. I didn't know burial tomb doesn't have an artist slot. Egypt is not a winner.

I agree you need a GE to rush Louvre. Cristo i think you can hard build if needed. The difference is only a couple turns. And Porcelain and 1 other GS to get at least telegraph with oxford.

In both I got SH and Oracle (seriously, why would you not insist on Oracle? It's worth 5-6 turns off the finish date isn't it?). In one I also got GL. All handbuilt.

I will go with Siam next and hold out a little longer for a better map.

 

[walkerjks]

In both I got SH and Oracle (seriously, why would you not insist on Oracle? It's worth 5-6 turns off the finish date isn't it?). In one I also got GL. All handbuilt.

Because 1 in 3 games it gets built before you finish it (wasyed production turns). Because you could be building other buildings during that time.

Personally, I go for the Oracle and generally restart if I don't get it. But I don't always get it, and playing 90 turns of a nice start and then rerolling because an AI burned a meritocracy GE on The Oracle is really, really annoying.

 

[Martin Alvito]

In both I got SH and Oracle (seriously, why would you not insist on Oracle? It's worth 5-6 turns off the finish date isn't it?).

Because Coal matters at least as much to your finish date, you don't know unless you play to Scientific Theory whether or not you have any, and the AI techs so slowly on Emperor that you generally can't buy Coal or get it from a city-state.

So if I get a promising game, I play it most of the way even if I don't get the Oracle.

I've tried a few more Arabia games and while the extra cash is very nice, bankrupting the AIs is not. I'm increasingly convinced that you have to play as Siam, get a lot of luxuries and just deal with being generally cash-poor.

 

[vexing]

i had napolean in my last game, i was wrong to exclude him earlier. at this difficulty level he's not a complete menace. he didn't start near me, was friendly throughout, didn't destroy any other civ, and had tons of cash. all in all a major win.

 

[FiveAces]

Because 1 in 3 games it gets built before you finish it (wasyed production turns).

I've never been beaten to it, even on immortal. Maybe I build it too early? I usually go scout-worker-SH-library(buy)-NC-Oracle.

 

[Dinhcara]

I would just like to take the time to rant for a minute:


After nearly an hour of restarting a map over, and over and over...

Dear Map Generator,

I am not a beach person, please stop putting me ON THE DAMNED COAST.

Sincerely,

Frustrated.