G-Minor 208

[WastinTime]

I'm playing this one. With the usual double gold start, I don't see any reason not to go for jails. I was even going to skip the GWall because I don't think it is essential, but then the AI wasn't trying for it, so I built it without stone. Going as planned so far. Stole 4 workers. Now I'll capture 2 neighbors and stop there. I'm sure if you really want an all time great game, you should keep warring. What game doesn't benefit from that? Not sure who will be my espionage biatch yet. Could be Mansa. He's next door, but as my tech trader, he might be harder to beat down than others.

I hope someone (cough...Seraiel) will try the non-jail approach.

 

[Seraiel]

I hope someone (cough...Seraiel) will try the non-jail approach.

I already tried an approach with a Castle and found out, that the Castle only payed for itself but didn't generate any benefit. I'm really very sure, that the GW-approach + stop research as early as possible is the best. It's similar to Space, Buro is simply the best civic, now Nationalism gives +25% , how many cities would you need to outperform a Buro capital having +50% and +100% cumulative bonuses? Also Constitution, all too expensive. Research CoL to get a holy city, oracle Civil Service and then shut down research completely and get everything either by trading around Civil Service or by stealing it. I'll definitely await the result of this Gauntlet with eagerness, but I'd be very very surprised if Nationalism or even a Jail would beat Kaitzilla's 850 AD Emperor game. He wrote that he didn't play optimal though, but if someone would i. e. win at 600 AD, that imo. would be a clear sign for a better approach.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I agree with Seraiel. If you have a strong Bureaucratic Capital and cottage all floodplain and flat grassland and built Scotland Yard with your first or second Great Spy, research Code of Laws and Oracle Civil Service, a Code of Laws research path through Priesthood is all you need to research. You can trade for and steal every other technology you need. You will of course need to trade for Alphabet, before you can start stealing techs.

Optionally, research Alphabet if the AI is too slow in researching Alphabet, but then your game will no longer be optimal, if someone else has an AI that beelines Alphbet.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

You do need to cottage all cities, if the AI you captured them from did not. They need good cottaging land with a few hills to be mined for hammers to help build Courthouses.

Jails can help later, but I'd let the AI research to Constitution and steal that tech path. Philosophy for Pacifism will be a key tech to steal and is on the path to Constitution, plus some of the A's will favor the Philosophy -> Nationalism -> Constitution path rather early. Nationalism can be useful for Nationhood, so all these technologies can help win a very early Espionage Victory.

 

[WastinTime]

You guys are far too confident in your strategy considering you've submitted a total of one Espionage game between you, zero games on Epic speed, and Zero games on Immortal for anyone. I'm keeping an open mind. I'd like to try both ways, but the 'early Constitution' path seems faster to me. I don't want to wait for the Immortal AI to get Constitution.

Just like a spaceship will launch 30-40 turns after corps (on normal speed), I expect this game ends ~30 turns after Constitution (on normal). So add 15 turns for Epic speed.

 

[WastinTime]

Oh, and I'm planning on building zero cottages.

 

[Seraiel]

I hope you make a writeup of those rounds ^^ .

Personally I agree with STW, cottaging is a must and GW is aswell + Scotland Yard is. I know that you wouldn't try your approach if you wouldn't have an idea how it might work better than Kaizilla's approach (which basically is the one I played aswell) . This has to do nothing with being to confident or not keeping an open mind Wastin, Buro is simply the best civic when GNP is conccerned and Scotland Yard is crazily strong, just think that it has the strength of 2 Academies in 1 city! I'm very sure, that your all Specialist-approach isn't optimal, optimal is using all sources possible and that includes Specialists and Cottages + to build enough Wealth so sustaining 100% is possible, very similar to traditional culture somehow.

But tell me Wastin: How many espionage-games have you actually submitted?

 

[WastinTime]

But tell me Wastin: How many espionage-games have you actually submitted?

Touche, but I have submitted one or two GotM's with espionage. And one SG used it.

I don't get Nationalism for Nationhood. I still run Buro.

Scotland Yard would probably pay off if I cottaged, but why not just use the GSpy for 4500 EPs? Skip the cottages and go chop something.

If you had a tech race to Edu, how would you do it? Academy?...no. Bulbing GS's....yes.
It's the same thing here.
4500 per GSpy is hard to beat.

 

[Seraiel]

^^

With Great Spies it's a little different.

1. One needs 3 GAs to get enough seed-culture, so 3 GPs are gone.

2. One needs 1 G-Spy for Scotland Yard, now 4 GPs are gone.

3. The game is a lot shorter than a normal cultural game = less time to generate GPs.

4. With only Courthouses, only 1 G-Spy-slot is available, generating G-Spies is much more difficult than Great Scientists.

Yes, the G-Spy is hard to beat Wastin, one cannot get enough for them to get the 30k or 45k that are needed in the best amont of time though. Even with a PHI leader it's hard to generate even 10 GPs, now with 4 already gone there can be a maximum of 6 G-Spies, that still leaves quite a lot of culture, and getting 10 GPs requires running mixed Artists with Spies, because with running only Spies one couldn't create 10 GP's because of too few slots. This is actually where I see the biggest advantage of your Constitution approach, you can hire 3 Spies and that allows you to generate maybe 5-6 pure G-Spies, if 1 G-Spy is 4500 though then you get less than 30k , you need Cottages to get the remaining 15000.

And what I find extremely hard to imagine is that Constitution could pay back, because CS is possible by Oracle. With oracling CS it's possible to get all techs 'til the needed Engineering by only trading CS around and then trading the tech one gets against another one, so with Oracle CS one can basically stop research at 1500 - 1200 BC or whenever oracle CS is possible. Constitution is so much more tech, first it's Philosophy, a massive tech at 1500 BC that takes ages, then Nationalism, we think Nationalism isn't that expensive because we usually research it later, but at 1000 BC Nationalism is huge, and then Consitution, I will only guess but this is at least 10 times more than in the Oracle CS approach. Jails are good, but can they make up for needing to research 1500y longer? I doubt it.

 

[WastinTime]

In a culture game you try to get 20+ GPs.

This game only 10 or 11.
The first 10 GPs are not hard to generate (only 1500 for #10).
Your NationalEpic, super-food city can contibute to the first 10 and then get you #11 as a pure artist at 1800.

You get a free Artist at Music.

So of those first 10 GPs, you can shoot for 8 pure GSpy, 1 pure GArt, and 1 mixed.
Use the mixed for a GAge. It could even be a GPro from your Oracle city. But then your oracle city should make spies, so you don't get another GPro late.

 

[Seraiel]

I know all of that Wastin. If you explain to me how you want to generate 8 pure Spies from 1 Courthouse slot I'll listen. Even with a Jail you only have 3 slots. Let's say you get the Jails at 1 AD, then you can run 3 Specialists a 9 with Pacifism. The last one for 1500 will take 55T, 42 if from the NE-city, a really good game is over in T157, it's over before you even could create the last Great Artist if you had an instant Jail in the NE-city at with libbing Constitution at 1 AD.

Plz play out your game, but don't educate me over game mechanics I know, I have played several cultural victories and know them quite well, I could have achieved an 1130 AD traditional cultural victory if I wouldn't have gotten 6 Prophets out of a 5% chance, and I also know the GP-costs + that music gives a free Great Artist. I'd just like to say that you aren't considering several things and you don't even answer to my arguments of Nationalism + Constitution being hillariously expensive while it's possible to shut off teching and run 100% with Oracle CS from 1500 BC onwards. I know that GPs are powerful Wastin, but Great Spies aren't Great Scientists, they cannot be hired via Caste. I don't say 8 Great Spies is impossible, I had that many in my 1130 AD game which was from a Gauntlet iirc. , your overall approach is not working though. You argue with an Education race and a Great Scientist, but what do you do with your capital in an Education race? You cottage it and that is your main source of and Scientists are easy to get because Libraries are available early and give slots + Caste allows unlimited Scientists, Great Spies are completely different, you cannot create them en masse unless you go into mid- to endgame. You can maybe reach Cuirrs earlier with a pure Specialist-economy because bulbs are strong and the path needs GSs, but not Constitution. You once wrote that it's probably possible to beat a traditional culture game with just Pottery (Cottage) + Alphabet (Spy) , that is the right approach. In a domination game you also don't build fancy Markets, Temples or Aequeducts, you build a Granary, maybe a Forge, maybe a Barracks and then you roll over the map with War Elephants

Surprise me, play out that approach and show me that I'm a n00b and don't know what I'm talking of, I'd be happy for a chance to learn and also learn about an espionage victory that is independant of the GW, because the GW on Deity is even a gamble when building it with 1 city.

 

[WastinTime]

Sorry if it looks like I'm talking down to you. I'm not. I'm just posting the game mechanics for all readers in the thread to understand espionage better.

GPPs:
Of course you run 3 spies, that's the whole point of Const. Just about any 'average' city can do this with very basic food.
9 base GPP x (Pacifism, PHI trait, Golden Age, parthenon) = 40 GPP
2 MoM GAges are 36 turns (Taj + 1 GP) edit: only 30 turns
That's 1200 GPP!.

If you plan ahead, come of your GSpy cities can run 1 spy for ~50 turns before the GAge/pacifism. That's a 300 GPP headstart. So you see, even the lamest city could produce the more expensive GP #10 @ 1500 GPP
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If you get the GW, that city can do 49 GPP instead of 40 (1960 GPP)

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And then there's the NationalEpic city which cannot make 100% pure GSpies, but worth adding to the mix.
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research cost
I too shut off research after CS and steal/trade for all but Music, Nat, Const. The amount of EPs you can generate right after Oracle/CS is microscopic. It's like saying you're going to run 100% culture slider that early in a culture game instead of researching on and building cathedrals, etc.

Nat and Const only cost ~6000 gold on epic speed. So you only lose, let's say no more than ~9000 EPs -- the equivalent of 2 Gspies. As you pointed out, getting tons of GSpies with your solo specialist slot will be either impossible or a crapshoot, meaning you'd have to run spy+artists and get very lucky. Jails make up for the 2 lost GSpies with ease.

Again, I'm saying the jury is still out on which approach is faster. However, I'm sure the specialist approach is way better than you think it is. The question is : can you beat that with CS/Buro/cottages? That's why this discussion originally started with my hope that you would compete. Instead, you will be eating your words when this is over (again ) and it will be too late to join the competition.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I agree with Seraiel. A hybrid approach with early cottages, early oracling of CS plus specialists seems better.

So, WastinTime, do you plan to bulb Education to build a very early Oxford University so you can research Music, Nationalism and Constitution? Seems like a lot of resoures expended to research just these three technologies. I suppose, letting the AI research them and stealing or trading for them is too slow?

Of course Music has to be researched to get the free GA, but is Oxford University really needed to do it? Is the free GA from Music even critical for the earliest Espionage Victory?

Good luck with your strategy WastinTime. You will probably make it work better in the end. I would definitely not recommend this approach to someone looking to win their first Espionage Victory though. The strategy described by Seraiel would be much easier to perform for someone new to the Espionage Victory.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Thank you for joining us in this Espionage Assisted Cultural Victory Gauntlet, WastinTime! I look forward to seeing how your strategy works out.

 

[WastinTime]

So, WastinTime, do you plan to bulb Education to build a very early Oxford University so you can research Music, Nationalism and Constitution?


The strategy described by Seraiel would be much easier to perform for someone new to the Espionage Victory.

No, I simply research Nationalism and Constitution. Those are the only 2 extra techs you need to get Jails. A small price to pay.

I think my strategy is better for a novice. Just farm and chop so you can whip spys and still have enough pop for 3 specialists. Managing cottages using 'helper' cities to support the super-capital is much more advanced.
If your economy is in trouble, you can just run the wealth slider. Seraiel's strategy means you need a really efficient empire. Maintaining 100% EP slider is not for a beginner.

 

[elitetroops]

Question about this Espionage gauntlet. Espionage victory doesn't count towards EQM, but does any other aspects of the game count? You should get a G-minor entry for EQM, right? How about Map Quest and League of Nations? Can you get a high score entry for Machiavelli from an espionage game?

Edit: realized that you can't score a game for MP and LoN without giving points for victory, so this probably isn't happening... Awarding points for High Score would still be possible, but I can only assume it is unlikely. But you do get a gauntlet entry at least, right?

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Edit: realized that you can't score a game for MP and LoN without giving points for victory, so this probably isn't happening... Awarding points for High Score would still be possible, but I can only assume it is unlikely. But you do get a gauntlet entry at least, right?

No - Espionage victories are ignored when calculating EQM.

 

[WastinTime]

No - Espionage victories are ignored when calculating EQM.

I understand you don't want to add Espionage Victory as a requirement. Makes sense.
But the games should count for LoN, Mapquest, etc. QM and EQM

 

[elitetroops]

I understand you don't want to add Espionage Victory as a requirement. Makes sense.
But the games should count for LoN, Mapquest, etc. QM and EQM

I kind of agree with this. At least if you ever want to see all those slots filled. If they did count, I'm sure some gold digger would go for filling lots of empty slots just to max out their LoN and MQ scores. Having gauntlets and challenge games that don't count for EQM and QM is not very good to encourage participation either.

Espionage victory should never be a requirement for EQM/QM, though.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

I understand you don't want to add Espionage Victory as a requirement. Makes sense.
But the games should count for LoN, Mapquest, etc. QM and EQM

That was my initial plan but the problem is with so few entries in the tables and so many blanks it would be too easy to rack up maximum QScores totally distorting QM and EQM.