G-Minor 32

[FiveAces]

They don't count. They count as the one temple you need to build your own cathedrals.

Is this a Warlords thing? On Vanilla OCC I'm not allowed to build any cathedrals even if I have a temple. Am I missing something?

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I'm planning one more shot at this gauntlet via a Combination CE/SE strategy as I outlined earlier in this thread.

My first Combo CE/SE attempt failed for two reasons:

1) My "future" PA Partner was on another continent (with another AI). This is the first start I had that was ruined for this reason. Someone else reported the same problem earlier in this thread. Did anyone else run into this problem?

2) I got to Liberalism + free Military Tradition on turn 144 (AD 680). I started with The Wheel and Pottery while building a Worker. There are a few things that contributed to my slower research:

a) I did not beeline Writing and immediately build a Library. I researched Mysticism, Masonry (The Pyramids), Polytheism (The Parthenon) and Priesthood (Code of Laws) before Writing. This research is actually quite reasonable, but I also researched Monotheism before Writing for Organized Religion and Judaism. This could also be deemed a good trade off too, though.

b) When the Library was completed, I did not immediately hire 1-2 Scientists to quickly generate a Great Scientist that immediately creates an Academy. One Scientist was hired rather late, generating the Great Scientist on turn 102 (BC 325) which created the Academy on the same turn.

c) I did not beeline Civil Service (but did immediately adopt Bureaucracy). After Code of Laws, only Alphabet was researched before Mathematics (Civ4 Warlords) and Civil Service. I think it was a mistake to research Alphabet before Civil Service.

d) I worked a mined Gold tile (no food; 9 coins) which required working a Wheat tile (4 food) just to come out even on food; in the long run two towns on flood plains is better; a mined flatland Gems tile (2 food 8 coins) is much better since it requires only 1 Citizen to be self-supporting. The mined Gold tile provides a great early research boost, but becomes a drag later on. This also delayed working more Cottages.

e) Low on Hammers: At Population 3, I had 4 Hammers. At Population 6, I had 8 Hammers (12 Hammers with Bureaucracy). Without Stone or Marble, building Wonders was very slow (i.e. The Pyramids at turn 105, BC 250). More to the point, building the Library and Oxford University (unfinished) was very slow.

f) A consequence of point #1 above: Without contact with my "future" PA Partner, I was not able to trade with him.

h) I didn't trade with the AIs I contacted enough to allow them to help research. However, I still think my research rate is too fast for them to keep up without giving away too many Technologies too early, thus losing out on the corresponding World Wonders.

Any comments?

Thanks,

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[jesusin]

Any comments?

I have very little to add to your analysis.

Why Pyramids? You don't need them. If you had nothing else to build, then it is ok.
Why GLIB? It will ruin your GA probability.

Try gifting every tech immediately to your future PA partner, you prefer him to build the WW better than yourself.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Why Pyramids? You don't need them. If you had nothing else to build, then it is ok.

I want to run Representation as soon as possible for the +3 Happiness and +3 Beakers/Specialist. It is also an Engineer GPP Wonder like The Hanging Gardens. Why do you build The Hanging Gardens, for the Engineer GPP, +1 Health/+1 Population or both? I do have better things to build like The Parthenon, Monument (Obelisk), Monasteries, and Temples. I did interrupt The Pyramids to build a Library.

Why GLIB? It will ruin your GA probability.

Sorry, I'm building only a normal Library. I'm not building the Great Library, since it would add not just one source of Scientist GPPs, but three sources which added to the one from Oxford University would make four Scientist GPP sources. I agree the Great Library would ruin your GA probability, but would provide 8 base GPPs versus a normal WW's 2 GPPs. But anyway you look at it, building The Great Library yourself it a bad idea for this gauntlet.

Try gifting every tech immediately to your future PA partner, you prefer him to build the WW better than yourself.

Yes, I agree. Actually, you will still want to build as many Artist and Engineer GPP Wonders as you can for the extra GPPs. It is better that you get those GPPs than your future PA Partner. He will waste Great Artists he generates, but may use Great Engineers properly. So I guess we should build World Wonders with Artist GPPs first and Engineer GPPs second.

Gifting Technologies to your future PA Partner will also allow them to research other Technologies and hopefully trade them to us to increase our research rate.

The "You shared your Technologies" Diplomatic bonus is also nice to get. Thus the shared Religion Diplomatic bonus may not be so important in getting a DP or PA (just before the PA, your future PA Partner may be using Free Religion anyway).

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Shoot the Moon]

Is this a Warlords thing? On Vanilla OCC I'm not allowed to build any cathedrals even if I have a temple. Am I missing something?

I am not sure, but I played in Warlords and was able to do it, so it may be.

a) I did not beeline Writing and immediately build a Library. I researched Mysticism, Masonry (The Pyramids), Polytheism (The Parthenon) and Priesthood (Code of Laws) before Writing. This research is actually quite reasonable, but I also researched Monotheism before Writing for Organized Religion and Judaism. This could also be deemed a good trade off too, though.

I am interested in what the "ideal" beginning tech sequence is. In my game I went Wheel, Pottery, Writing, Alpha then the techs required for CS. Jesusin, what was your opening tech path? I am not sure whether it is better to research Alpha right away to trade for worker techs and myst and poly/Buddhism (what is the name of that tech?) or whether it is better to research agri, myst, and poly yorself after writing and then only after CS go back and research alpha.

I want to run Representation as soon as possible for the +3 Happiness and +3 Beakers/Specialist. It is also an Engineer GPP Wonder like The Hanging Gardens. Why do you build The Hanging Gardens, for the Engineer GPP, +1 Health/+1 Population or both? I do have better things to build like The Parthenon, Monument (Obelisk), Monasteries, and Temples. I did interrupt The Pyramids to build a Library.

I don't think the Pyramids is worth it in a CE/SE game. The investment at that point in the game is too large if your not even going to run a SE. Especially if you don't have stone. In terms of Hanging Gardens, mostly the health, but really both.

Yes, I agree. Actually, you will still want to build as many Artist and Engineer GPP Wonders as you can for the extra GPPs. It is better that you get those GPPs than your future PA Partner. He will waste Great Artists he generates, but may use Great Engineers properly. So I guess we should build World Wonders with Artist GPPs first and Engineer GPPs second.

I would rather my partner get 8-10 cpt (that doubles in 1000 years) in hopefully one of the 2 cities than that I get 2 more GPP.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I am interested in what the "ideal" beginning tech sequence is. In my game I went Wheel, Pottery, Writing, Alpha then the techs required for CS. Jesusin, what was your opening tech path? I am not sure whether it is better to research Alpha right away to trade for worker techs and myst and poly/Buddhism (what is the name of that tech?) or whether it is better to research agri, myst, and poly yourself after writing and then only after CS go back and research alpha.

The main goal of the Technology path is obviously completing Communism as early as possible and completing Military Tradition (for the DP) at least 40 turns earlier so (ideally) the PA can be signed on the turn Communism is completed. This means that increasing the research rate as fast as possible with a few exceptions should be the primary guiding principle for choosing the Technology path.

The details of the Technology path can depend on your Opponents. In my current game I'm playing Elizabeth with Opponents (future PA Partner) Ramesses II (Industrious, Spiritual), Hannibal (Financial, Charismatic), and Montezuma (Aggressive, Spiritual). Hannibal and Ragnar were chosen because of their Financial trait, but by turn 117 (BC 50), they are providing very few Technologies, even though I fed them all the early Technologies (before Alphabet and Code of Laws) that I researched.

Also, the Technology path for "Combination CE -> SE" will be significantly different than the Technology path for pure SE.

Assuming "Combination CE -> SE", there are a few basic choices where Alphabet can be inserted as needed, usually earlier rather than later. There are a couple more options taking the less conventional Currency path to Code of Laws.

Basic choice A:

1) The Wheel -> Pottery -> Writing (build Library & hire 1-2 Scientists -> GS -> Academy) -> optional Alphabet (trade for early Technologies)

2) Mysticism -> Polytheism (unlock The Parthenon) -> Priesthood -> Code of Laws -> Mathematics (Warlords only?) -> Civil Service (adopt Bureaucracy)

3) Paper -> Education (build University and Oxford University) -> Drama (unlock Globe Theatre) -> optional Literature (unlock National Epic) -> Music (GA)

4) Philosophy -> Nationalism -> Liberalism + free Military Tradition

Basic choice B (Same as A, except optional Alphabet comes after Civil Service):

1) The Wheel -> Pottery -> Writing (build Library & hire 1-2 Scientists -> GS -> Academy)

2) Mysticism -> Polytheism (unlock The Parthenon) -> Priesthood -> Code of Laws -> Mathematics (Warlords only?) -> Civil Service (adopt Bureaucracy) -> optional Alphabet (trade for early Technologies)

3) Paper -> Education (build University and Oxford University) -> Drama (unlock Globe Theatre) -> optional Literature (unlock National Epic) -> Music (GA)

4) Philosophy -> Nationalism -> Liberalism + free Military Tradition

Basic choice C (Same as A, except optional Alphabet comes after Education):

1) The Wheel -> Pottery -> Writing (build Library & hire 1-2 Scientists -> GS -> Academy)

2) Mysticism -> Polytheism (unlock The Parthenon) -> Priesthood -> Code of Laws -> Mathematics (Warlords only?) -> Civil Service (adopt Bureaucracy)

3) Paper -> Education (build University and Oxford University) -> optional Alphabet (trade for early Technologies) -> Drama (unlock Globe Theatre) -> optional Literature (unlock National Epic) -> Music (GA)

4) Philosophy -> Nationalism -> Liberalism + free Military Tradition

Basic Choice D (similar to A except uses Currency rather that Priesthood prerequisite for Code of Laws to reasonably delay research of Alphabet):

1) The Wheel -> Pottery -> Writing (build Library & hire 1-2 Scientists -> GS -> Academy)

2) Mathematics -> Currency -> Code of Laws -> Civil Service (adopt Bureaucracy) -> optional Alphabet (trade for early Religious Technologies)

3) Paper -> Education (build University and Oxford University) -> Drama (unlock Globe Theatre) -> optional Literature (unlock National Epic) -> Music (GA)

4) Philosophy -> Nationalism -> Liberalism + free Military Tradition

Basic Choice E (similar to D except optional Alphabet is researched after Education):

1) The Wheel -> Pottery -> Writing (build Library & hire 1-2 Scientists -> GS -> Academy)

2) Mathematics -> Currency -> Code of Laws -> Civil Service (adopt Bureaucracy) -> optional Alphabet (trade for early Religious Technologies)

3) Paper -> Education (build University and Oxford University) -> Drama (unlock Globe Theatre) -> optional Literature (unlock National Epic) -> Music (GA)

4) Philosophy -> Nationalism -> Liberalism + free Military Tradition

Paths A, B and C different only in when (optional) Alphabet is researched, after the three key research rate increasing Technologies of Writing (Library and Academy), Civil Service (Bureaucracy) and Education (University and Oxford University). The cost of doing Alphabet in path A can be very expensive and not worthwhile to trade for only Mysticism, Polytheism and even Priesthood since Mysticism + Polytheism is only about 50% of Alphabet and Mysticism + Polytheism + Priesthood is still only about 80% of Alphabet. Doing Alphabet in paths B and C is even harder to justify, since it is very unlikely that any AI would research any later Technology in the path before the player does, much less offer it in trade.

Paths D and E are significantly longer than Path A, but having Currency early can have some trading advantages.

For all paths, it may be possible to trade for Alphabet at some point, perhaps after Liberalism, thus making Alphabet truly optional in all of these five paths.

In the context of this gauntlet, Alphabet should be researched when contact with the future PA Partner is made, so it can be immediately given all Technologies the player researches. Thus, assuming we must research Alphabet, doing so right after Writing is best (Path A), since that offers the best potential return on trades in the Tech path (Mysticism, Polytheism and possibly Priesthood).

I don't think the Pyramids is worth it in a CE/SE game. The investment at that point in the game is too large if your not even going to run a SE. Especially if you don't have stone. In terms of Hanging Gardens, mostly the health, but really both.

Yes, The Pyramids is probably not a good choice unless we are using a Hammer strategy of building all Wonders with Engineer and Artist GPPs. For a Hammer strategy, a Player Civ with the Industrious trait would be better like Huayna Capac (Warlords only), who is unfortunately forbidden as a Player Civ in this gauntlet.

I'm not sure building the Hanging Gardens is necessarily a good idea, especially when happiness has not yet been solved via Globe Theatre. +1 Heath and +1 Population at 0 (or negative) net Happiness can have a very bad result. However, building Hanging Gardens after Globe Theatre is built is a great way to get +1 Population for free (+1 Health is included as part of the deal).

I would rather my partner get 8-10 cpt (that doubles in 1000 years) in hopefully one of the 2 cities than that I get 2 more GPP.

Don't forget that the 2 GPP per World Wonder is just base GPP. We need to apply the Philosophical, Pacifism and The Parthenon GPP multipliers to the base GPPs. Assuming we have all those GPP multipliers, our merger 2 GPP becomes 7 GPP per World Wonder.

Yes, World Wonders provide 6-10 Cpt that doubles in 1000 years, but only if built in the right two cities and the AI is likely to build a World Wonder in any city that has a few Hammers around. In my last pure SE game, Ramesses II was building World Wonders in about six or more different cities. Thus, a World Wonder was built in the city we want 1/3 of the time. Settling a GA or GE rushing a Wonder in the two cities we want is sounding much better.

In my latest pure SE game, there were only six World Wonders in the best two cities at PA time, four in the capital and two in the best Culture city (with Hermitage). At PA time, there were 8 (Sistine Chapel enhanced) GAs to settle between these two cities. No additional World Wonders, other than one each +50% Culture World Wonders were built by game end. 6 more GAs were settled. Thus, I'd guess that only about 1/3 of the base Culture is provided by World Wonders, and about 2/3 of the base Culture is provided by settled GAs.

However, the combination CE -> SE strategy is best done with minimal Hammers, so we are probably only going to be able to build 1-3 World Wonders of value to our strategy such as The Parthenon, The Oracle (although it pollutes our GAs) and maybe The Hanging Gardens (synergy with OCC). We also have many National Wonders that are more important to build before any World Wonder, except possibly The Parthenon, so again we should allow our PA Partner to build nearly any World Wonder it wants.

So Shoot the Moon is right, at least in the context of the combination CE -> SE strategy where we should allow our PA Partner to build the vast majority of World Wonders, even though they are likely to go into the wrong cities, since we can't focus on CE by putting more than 1-2 Citizens on Hammer tiles which is what we'd need to do to quickly build a sequence of World Wonders. This would be best done via a Hammer strategy (previously mentioned).

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Shoot the Moon]

The details of the Technology path can depend on your Opponents. In my current game I'm playing Elizabeth with Opponents (future PA Partner) Ramesses II (Industrious, Spiritual), Hannibal (Financial, Charismatic), and Montezuma (Aggressive, Spiritual). Hannibal and Ragnar were chosen because of their Financial trait, but by turn 117 (BC 50), they are providing very few Technologies, even though I fed them all the early Technologies (before Alphabet and Code of Laws) that I researched.

[snip]

Paths A, B and C different only in when (optional) Alphabet is researched, after the three key research rate increasing Technologies of Writing (Library and Academy), Civil Service (Bureaucracy) and Education (University and Oxford University). The cost of doing Alphabet in path A can be very expensive and not worthwhile to trade for only Mysticism, Polytheism and even Priesthood since Mysticism + Polytheism is only about 50% of Alphabet and Mysticism + Polytheism + Priesthood is still only about 80% of Alphabet. Doing Alphabet in paths B and C is even harder to justify, since it is very unlikely that any AI would research any later Technology in the path before the player does, much less offer it in trade.

Still no Mansa?

Your not factoring in researching agriculture or even bronze working (for chops), both of which I use Alpha to trade for. So if Alpha is truly optional, you would need to self research those probably.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Still no Mansa?

I have Map Finder maps with player Elizabeth and PA Ramesses II, Mansa Musa, Gandhi, and Montezuma, but I won't have time to play any of them before this gauntlet's deadline, unless it is extended.

Your not factoring in researching agriculture or even bronze working (for chops), both of which I use Alpha to trade for. So if Alpha is truly optional, you would need to self research those probably.

My assumption in creating a Technology path for this gauntlet is increasing research rate is the only goal. Of course this is a partially false assumption. There is value to researching Alphabet beyond trades for Technologies in the Tech path. Certainly, Bronze Working (that you mentioned) can be a very valuable Technology that permits us to build Research multiplier building much faster via Slavery and Chopping, so BW could even be justifiably added to the Tech path as secondary Technology. Other Technologies such as Agriculture (that you mentioned) have a less direct (ancillary) affect on the research rate such as building a Farm on a Health resource which allows more Citizens to work, sometimes building research multiplier building (or other less direct actions that are still quite beneficial to increasing the research rate).

In my opinion, the following Technology path is the best for the Combination CE -> SE strategy.

Basic choice A with mandatory Alphabet after Writing:

1) The Wheel -> Pottery -> Writing (build Library & hire 1-2 Scientists -> GS -> Academy) -> Alphabet (trade for Technologies such as Mysticism, Polytheism, Priesthood, and others not on the Tech path)

2) Mysticism -> Polytheism (unlock The Parthenon) -> Priesthood -> Code of Laws -> Mathematics (Warlords only?) -> Civil Service (adopt Bureaucracy)

3) Paper -> Education (build University and Oxford University) -> Drama (unlock Globe Theatre) -> optional Literature (unlock National Epic) -> Music (GA)

4) Philosophy -> Nationalism -> Liberalism + free Military Tradition

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

What is the minimum Diplomacy rating needed to get a Defensive Pact? Most AIs will do it at Friendly and a few will do it at Pleased.

My future PA Partner is Ramesses II and I now know that he requires Friendly. I had Pleased (+9) with him when I completed Liberalism on turn 131 (AD 400). I thought Pleased would be sufficient for the DP, but I was wrong. I immediately tried matching my Civics to his and got +1 Diplomacy for "choosing my civics wisely", but +10 is still not enough. I think I may need +11 Diplomacy to sign a DP, based on the following quote and reference page:

The AI will almost always vote for your diplo win if you have a total positive standing of 11 or more, unless it is your competitor or has a higher standing with your competitor.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=6338948#post6338948

In my last pure SE game, I think I had +12 Diplomacy when I signed the DP with Ramessess II. So worst case, +12 Diplomacy should suffice.

Ramessess II religion bonus/penalty range is +7 to -7 and he founded his own religion. I can't convert to his religion, since I don't have it. I might be able to convert all his cities to my religion and since only two cities have his religion, he might convert, even though he founded his current religion. However, he is located at the opposite end of a nearly map-wide continent, so conversion via Missionaries would be unacceptably slow.

Current Diplomatic boni:

+1 For Peace
+1 For Resource trades
+2 For Open Borders
+1 For Wisely Chosen Civics
+4 For Trade Relations (Technology/one time Gold trades)
+1 For Sharing Technological Discoveries
==
+10 Total

Ramesses II's favorite Civic is OR and he is currently using it and I just adopted it. I think there is an additional bonus for using a Civ's favorite Civic. Maybe I will also get that bonus as well in a few turns. The "Wisely Chosen Civics" bonus also increases over time, so maybe I just need to sit tight for a few turns? Anyone know how many turns I'd need to wait for a bump in value from the initial +1 to +2?

Any suggestions for increasing the Diplomacy score 1-2 points really fast?

Thanks,

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[jesusin]

I built the HGardens for the +1health for my partner.

My tech path:
Eliz has fish and mining.
Agri (for the best tile), wheel, pott, wri, alpha, trade layer1-2 techs, lite for earliest NE possible, PH, CoL, CS, Paper, Educ, Philo, Liber->MilTra. I can’t remember about Music. Later: Commu, MM, nothing else at all.
I can't claim this is the best possible path, though. Particularly, not researching Biology to protect Parthenon was a big mistake.

My worker farmed the corn, mined the gems and started cottaging.

I got my GS in t55 (1800BC) and Buraeucracy in t72 (1120BC). I didn't build the Oracle.

 

[jesusin]

Right. Press F8 once you have the UN and you'll see every resolution and its required percentage.

I (finally) checked. You can see the percentages even before the UN is built.
Press F8. The go to "Resolutions" screen. All the numbers are there.

 

[FiveAces]

Any suggestions for increasing the Diplomacy score 1-2 points really fast?

1) Your post refers to "his religion" and "my religion" indicating you are suffering the heathen religion penalty. Convert to NSR and that will go away, increasing your net relations. (Don't convert to FR or I think you will lose the civics bonus)

2) Bribe him to DOW on somebody and then DOW also. You will get instant +3 for mutual military struggle. Just make sure your target doesn't have any units nearby that can wreak havoc before you can make peace.

And there is no single answer to your initial question - different leaders have different minimums for a DP. Cyrus and Roos are among the lowest. Mansa's not too bad either. No idea about Ramsees since I don't have Warlords.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

1) Your post refers to "his religion" and "my religion" indicating you are suffering the heathen religion penalty. Convert to NSR and that will go away, increasing your net relations. (Don't convert to FR or I think you will lose the civics bonus)

Sorry, I didn't make the Religious situation clear. Since my future PA Partner founded Buddhism and converted to it, I never dared to convert to either Confucianism or Taoism, both of which I founded.

2) Bribe him to DOW on somebody and then DOW also. You will get instant +3 for mutual military struggle. Just make sure your target doesn't have any units nearby that can wreak havoc before you can make peace.

Thanks. All I need is +1, plus turns of shared war will satisfy the 40 turns of DP. Actually, the PA prerequisite is 40 turns of the sum of turns of shared war against a common foe and DP turns.

And there is no single answer to your initial question - different leaders have different minimums for a DP. Cyrus and Roos are among the lowest. Mansa's not too bad either. No idea about Ramsees since I don't have Warlords.

--- DP ---

The vast majority of all leaders will need to be Friendly before they will sign a DP. The Warlords leaders that will sign a DP when merely Pleased are:

Catherine
Cyrus
Roosevelt
Saladin
Tokugawa

--- PA ---

For the PA, things a bit more difficult (and sometimes impossible) with some leaders. Again, the vast majority of all leaders will need to be Friendly before they will sign a PA. The Warlords leaders that will never sign a PA are:

Alexander
Napoleon
Tokugawa

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Shoot the Moon]

Anyone interested in the exact Diplo working of a leader should check out the BtS reference guide.

Sun Tzu Wu, if you only need +1, the civics bonus should come in very soon (it may just be the next turn to update it). Be wary of annoying him while in the DP (don't adopt your own religion) as I have found Ramsesses will cancel at pleased.

Jesusin, the two things in your tech path I would take issue with is biology (duh) and researching agriculture yourself. In my game, cottaged floodplains provided enough food that I was growing faster than my worker could finish improvements even without the corn.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Anyone interested in the exact Diplo working of a leader should check out the BtS reference guide.

Thanks.

Sun Tzu Wu, if you only need +1, the civics bonus should come in very soon (it may just be the next turn to update it). Be wary of annoying him while in the DP (don't adopt your own religion) as I have found Ramsesses will cancel at pleased.

That's what did. It took 10 turns to go from +1 to +2 Wisely Chosen Civics and I made sure by matching Ramesses II's Civics exactly. He was also using OR, his favourite Civic. DP signed on turn 141 (MT on turn 131)

By the time of the PA (turn 181), I was up to +18 Diplomacy:

+1 Years of Peace
+2 Years of Resources
+2 Open Borders
+2 Defensive Pacts
+5 Wisely Chosen Civics
+4 Trade Relations fair
+2 Shared Technological Discoveries
==
18 Total

In retrospect, I could have converted to a different Religion and took the -7 Wrong Religion Penalty and had enough for the PA (+11 Diplomacy)

Jesusin, the two things in your tech path I would take issue with is biology (duh) and researching agriculture yourself. In my game, cottaged floodplains provided enough food that I was growing faster than my worker could finish improvements even without the corn.

I ended up researching Biology before Mass Media again ... long story ...

When signing the PA, I moved 3 GAs to where I thought was a Neutral tile, but it wasn't and when I signed the PA, the GAs where sent across the Ocean and ended up on the wrong on of the very wide Continent in Montezuma's land. Next turn, Montezuma cancels Open Borders and my 3 GAs get stuck in a neutral area inside Montezuma's land. After about 10+ turns, Montezuma's Culture (he actually builds a few World Wonders) covers the neutral tiles and my GAs are sent home.

Meanwhile, until the PA, I enjoyed good relations (up to +5 at some point) with Hannibal. He cancels Open Borders and his Diplomacy drops to +2. His land is in between me and my PA Partner. So I built 3 Cavalry units to escort a GS, and 4 GAs to my PA Partner's land, necessarily declaring war on him. I'm almost there without a scratch (His Technology level is Macemen, Knights, Pikemen, and Longbows; mainly Longbows). Naturally, my PA Partner is building Military units, reduced research to finance unit upgrades no doubt.

Since I have no navy, my plan is to eliminate Hannibal and Ragnar if he gets in the way. Montezuma is not in the way yet.

So this game is not likely to get a good finish date, but its actually more fun to play.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[jesusin]

That's what did. It took 10 turns to go from +1 to +2 Wisely Chosen Civics and I made sure by matching Ramesses II's Civics exactly. He was also using OR, his favourite Civic.

Matching his Civics doesn't help. Only you and him using his favourite Civic matters.

When signing the PA, I moved 3 GAs to where I thought was a Neutral tile, but it wasn't and when I signed the PA, the GAs where sent across the Ocean and ended up on the wrong on of the very wide Continent in Montezuma's land. Next turn, Montezuma cancels Open Borders and my 3 GAs get stuck in a neutral area inside Montezuma's land. After about 10+ turns, Montezuma's Culture (he actually builds a few World Wonders) covers the neutral tiles and my GAs are sent home.

 

[Bindamel]

I realize this has nothing to do with all the (very interesting, btw) analysis of early dates, but I had some fun just choosing random leaders and Ice Age (Islands).

I ended up as Mao, on an island with Louis. Toku, Hatty and Sally ended up being the other opponents.

Louis actually declared war on me early, and I had to fend him off. I managed to turn it around into an eventual permanent alliance, though, and off we went, really slowly.


How slowly?

Beijing achieved legendary culture in 1854.

Paris achieved legendary culture in 2037.

Tours achieved legendary culture in 2046.

Guess who has the last place slot in the gauntlet

The only reason I pulled this off is that Louis was dumping culture buildings in Tours because of pressure from Beijing.

It was surprisingly nerve wracking at the end, watching Louis make adjustments to his culture output in Tours, increasing the number of turns to legendary.

 

[Shoot the Moon]

It was surprisingly nerve wracking at the end, watching Louis make adjustments to his culture output in Tours, increasing the number of turns to legendary.

In regards to the stupidity of the AI, I would love to see this attempted in BtS to judge just how "improved" the AI is. I think it would be an interesting comparison.

 

[jesusin]

In regards to the stupidity of the AI, I would love to see this attempted in BtS to judge just how "improved" the AI is. I think it would be an interesting comparison.

Yes, please, if the AI was really intelligent the game would be all fun.

 

[Methos]

Due to CFC's server being down today, we are extending the deadline of the gauntlets to twenty fours from the time of this post. That would be at 12:00 AM Central Time US (0600 GMT).