G-Minor 32

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I've encountered that problem before and have not found a work-around, unfortunately. Your best bet now sounds like to beeline MM and rush the UN, just be sure you'll win the vote (i.e. make sure you've got high diplomatic relations elsewhere).

Thanks for the suggestion.

However, I decided to research the following Technologies first to increase Great Artist birth rate and the probability of GA births with respect to Great Engineer, Great Scientist and Great Prophet births:

Research Reason
========= =============
Democracy.. So PA Partner can build The Statue of Liberty = +1 Artist
Chemistry.... Prerequisite for Biology, unfortunately obsoletes Parthenon
Biology........ 8 extra food allows running 4 more Artists & increases GA purity
Medicine...... Allows Environmentalism (+6 Health), allows 2 more Artists; with Hospital (+3 Health), one more Artist.
................. However, switching from Mercantilism costs -1 Artist

My Health is an extreme limiting factor in this game (probably due to 7 Opponents and high sea level), so the above research deviation seemed reasonable. This has allowed Delhi to support 10+ (soon 12) Artist versus 6 Artists before.

GPP rate change
============

Before: Multiplier = 100% Philosphical + 100% National Epic + 100% Pacifism + 50% Parthenon = +350% = 4.5 times
GPP = 7 Wonders + 6 Artists = (7 * 2 + 6 * 3) * 4.5 = 144
GA Purity = (4 Wonders + 6 Artists) / (7 Wonders + 6 Artists) = 10/13 = 77%

After: Multiplier = 100% Philosphical + 100% National Epic + 100% Pacifism = +300% = 4.0 times
GPP = 7 Wonders + 12 Artists = (7 * 2 + 12 * 3) * 4.0 = 200
GA Purity = (4 Wonders + 12 Artists) / (7 Wonders + 12 Artists) = 16/19 = 84%

Note that prior to researching Biology, you want all farms (no cottages). You also want your capital at absolute maximum population which may mean running it at around -6 Health (costing you 6 food per turn). Note that Artists supported below 0 Health will cost 3 food per turn rather than the usual 2 food per turn. So every 3 point increase in Health will permit another Artist to be supported (2 points needed) plus +1 population (1 point needed) for the Artist itself.

On the turn Biology is completed, you will get one extra food for every farm worked. To quickly increase your population to what the extra food allows, temporarily switch Artists to Farmers so that every farm is worked. (This may mean as few as 2 Artists will remain, but you should have at least 4 GA GPP Wonders to keep the GA purity at least 66% for 1-3 turns, and thereafter it will increase.)

Your food surplus (initially +9 or more) should allow your population to increment every 1-3 turns until your population starts to approach its new maximum. Every time you add a population point, add an Artist and your food surplus will drop 2 (if net Health >= 0) or 3 (if net Heath < 0).

After researching Medicine, adopt Environmentalism (+6 Health) and build a Hospital. Your capital will go from about -6 Health to about 0 Health and your food surplus will again go up about 6. You should be able to now add 2-3 more Artists using the (Biology) method above (except all farms should already be worked, so there's no need to switch Artists to Farmers).

Resuming normal research path for this gauntlet:

Beeline MM Allows Broadway (Electricity), The Eiffel Tower, Rock N Roll (Radio), Hollywood and UN (Mass Media).

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I would settle for no free speech until UN. You will still easily take second place (my game had no free speech either). I do think that that makes Jesusin's date unobtainable, but I could be wrong.

I'm not sure my second game will be much better than my first game (AD 1939). I'll be very happy if I get AD 1900 or better.

I think my chances of taking second place are very small. My PA occurred at turn 199 (AD 1390) after waiting 2 turns to find out I can't bribe Ramesses II into Free Speech prior to the PA. My DP was made on turn 140 (AD 600) which is probably quite good for pure SE and building The Pyramids without Stone. However, due to low Health, I've been running about 66% of the Artists I ran in my first game, both before (6 vs. 9) and after Biology (12 vs. 18). (I'm currently at 10 Artists, but I'll have two more Artists soon after completing my half finished Hospital.)

However, I think 7 Opponents really hurt my Health trading opportunities, and my PA Partner has mainly Happiness resources. I was never able to get more than two Health resources via trading, but in first game with 4 Opponents, I probably had 4-6 Health resource trades and more later in the game.

That said my game is going well at about turn 244 (AD 1670) with a GS used for Delhi's Academy, two Great Prophets and six Great Artists settled in my PA Partner's capital (~14,000 C; ~350 Cpt), and four Great Artists in my PA Partner's Hermitage city (~13,000 C; ~250 Cpt) plus three as yet unused Great Engineers. My PA Partner and I have just started researching Radio.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[bshumbera]

@Sun Tzu Wu: Sounds like you're doing well. Keep us updated with your finish.

 

[Shoot the Moon]

Sun Tzu Wu, I was basing my second place comment off of the calculation that you would need about 1 more GA for finishing DP at 500 A.D. and you already had 2 more than I did when I finished my PA. Although starting radio 23 turns after I finished it may really hurt you. We shall see.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Sun Tzu Wu, I was basing my second place comment off of the calculation that you would need about 1 more GA for finishing DP at 500 A.D. and you already had 2 more than I did when I finished my PA. Although starting radio 23 turns after I finished it may really hurt you. We shall see.

I don't think I had much choice, since my population couldn't increase much beyond 12 due to my low Health. I needed to pursue Biology & Medicine first. Also, it is far more important to produce Great Artists fast as possible and as early as possible, before and after the PA.

I finished Radio on turn 254 (AD 1720) and Ramesses II has already started The Eiffel Tower in a secondary city. The Eiffel Tower is 1250 H and this city will apply 87 Hpt to it. Without my help it will complete in 16 turns. I could rush 880 H of it with a Great Engineer. I plan to rush it after this city puts about 350 such than it completes the following turn. Would it make sense to use two Great Engineers on The Eiffel Tower? Unfortunately, I can't get the second GE to this city and use it in one turn. I don't think using a second GE is worth getting Eiffel completed 3 turns sooner; It may be more effectively used rushing a Christian Cathedral or Jewish Synagogue (we lack Stone), Broadway, Rock N Roll, Hollywood or maybe the UN?

I didn't plan to save a GE for the UN. But, now I see that as critical to get a serious Culture flow via forced Free Speech.

I had gotten the idea that your PA Partner always waits one turn after a Technology allows building a new World Wonder in case you want to build it yourself. That was not the case with The Eiffel Tower as described above. Is it first come first (only) serve?

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

See the following post for the definitive answer:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4991231&postcount=9

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I my current game, two of the Civs are down to one city, due to the Culture of my Civ and that of my PA Partner. There's another Civ down to two cities due to war and is now the vassal of its enemy's enemy. Both Civs that are down to one city have a few ocean food resource tiles. If my PA vassalized one or both, I should be able to ask for any Health resource they have and they are too small to refuse (declare war on us). One of these Civs is isolated (surrounded by my PA Partner and Ocean), so there doesn't seem to be any risk. We are way ahead of anyone in Tech, and about even in military Tech.

Anyone try this? Anyone have comments about the potential advantages and risks?

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

My PA Partner has become twice as big due to his growing Culture. Without counting population points, he has to have the largest population of any Civ on the Map.

Does it matter whether my PA Partner or I build the UN?

If I build the UN, would my PA Partner be my UN opponent? Or is my PA Partner automatically disqualified and does the second larget Civ become my UN opponent?

From what I read, my PA Partner would always vote for me on a Diplomatic win question, but on other resolutions, he has free will. Thus he may vote against Free Speech, if he doesn't want to use it. There are four or five Religions factions, some of which are fighting each other. I'd probably need to convert most of them to my Religion. Although about half the Civs know Liberalism, none have converted to Free Religion, some because they want to use Organized Religion for the +25% H for buildings and others to use Theocracy.

I don't want to use a GE on the UN, if it's going to take 50 turns to get Free Speech (not) passed or my UN opponent to win a Diplomatic victory. I seem to be doing OK with the UN. Why should I risk using the UN to get FS?

At turn 254 (AD 1720), my Cultural cities are at ~27,000 +100% ~300 Cpt, ~15,000 +200% 450 Cpt (PA Capital), and ~13,000 +200% 320 Cpt (PA Hermitage) and I'll have The Eiffel Tower in about 5 more turns. I can save 1-2 of my three GEs to rush Culture multiplying buildings in the third city and settle most of my yet to be born GAs there as well.

With the Culture multipliers up to +200% (soon to be +250%) in my PA's two cities, +100% from Free Speech isn't going to help much plus I still need Media Media (10 more turns) and maybe 10 more turns before FS can be voted on.

The Civs are Gandhi (me), Ramesses II (PA Partner), Churchill (at war with Mao & Monte), Saladin (1 coastal city), Shaka, Mao Zedong (Master of Montezuma), Hannibal (1 coastal city), and Montezuma (1-2 cities). The size of some the the Civs have been noted, all remaining Civs are about half the size of Ramesses II.

Anyone have opinions on whether it makes sense to build the UN to attempt to get FS passed given the situation described?

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Dracandross]

Does it matter whether my PA Partner or I build the UN?

If I build the UN, would my PA Partner be my UN opponent? Or is my PA Partner automatically disqualified and does the second larget Civ become my UN opponent?

No, teams are counted as one so you'll be one with your partner. Also you get to pick your voting decicion regardless of whom built UN.

So it seems reasonable to build it or let ally build it. If someone else builds it youll most likely win election anyway. But +100% culture for ramses is quite much.

Edit: (added) Is that 1900 around what were expecting to get or has someone done significantly better. Im going to hit this G now as Im bored on BTS8 already.

-Dracandross

 

[bshumbera]

1900 would probably get you around 4th place. Jesusin got early 1800s and the next three are somewhere between 1850 and 1875 I think. I'm 5th at 1924.

 

[jesusin]

I would settle for no free speech until UN. You will still easily take second place (my game had no free speech either). I do think that that makes Jesusin's date unobtainable, but I could be wrong.

Please, I don't understand what that that stands for. What is it, that makes my game so special?

C'mon, it is my first and only try, I didn't even use Pacifism! Please, beat me!

At turn 254 (AD 1720), my Cultural cities are at ~27,000 +100% ~300 Cpt, ~15,000 +200% 450 Cpt (PA Capital), and ~13,000 +200% 320 Cpt (PA Hermitage) and I'll have The Eiffel Tower in about 5 more turns. I can save 1-2 of my three GEs to rush Culture multiplying buildings in the third city and settle most of my yet to be born GAs there as well.

With the Culture multipliers up to +200% (soon to be +250%) in my PA's two cities, +100% from Free Speech isn't going to help much plus I still need Media Media (10 more turns) and maybe 10 more turns before FS can be voted on.
...
Anyone have opinions on whether it makes sense to build the UN to attempt to get FS passed given the situation described?

I don't know what WW the cities are going to build or the dates of your future GAs, so I can only guess here. If your partner is going to build Eiffel and nothing else, and you are not goint to pop a single GA, then without FS each city will go Legendary in 68 and 100 turns.

If you get to pass FS in t20, then each city will go Legendary in 57 and 82 turns.

Assuming you get some GA and some WW in the worst city, you would be saving 11 turns by risking the UN.
For other games, in which MM has been prioritized over health techs, the effect of FS should be much more noticeable.

 

[Conquistador 63]

My first and only try ended in a 1925AD finish (currently 6th). I played it as Fred (1.74). Not the best, but I wanted to play a different civ for QM purposes.
I got Hatty as my PA, and she did quite a good job. Her capital went legendary without any help, but I had to settle all my GA's in her city #2.
What went wrong: mediocre starting area, I couldn't afford a single cottage the whole game, just farms, 1 gems 1 dyes.
What went right: all civs in the same landmass, DefPact & PA accepted swiftly, we got elected and FS accepted in the 1st UN votes, peaceful world.

 

[Shoot the Moon]

The Civs are Gandhi (me), Ramesses II (PA Partner), Churchill (at war with Mao & Monte), Saladin (1 coastal city), Shaka, Mao Zedong (Master of Montezuma), Hannibal (1 coastal city), and Montezuma (1-2 cities). The size of some the the Civs have been noted, all remaining Civs are about half the size of Ramesses II.

Seems like an odd choice of civs to me. Having techies seems a lot better to me. I included Ramsesses II (PA), Mansa, Washington and one other (Asoka or Cyrus, can't remember).

Can't help you with the free speech problem.

Edit: (added) Is that 1900 around what were expecting to get or has someone done significantly better. Im going to hit this G now as Im bored on BTS8 already.

Jesusin has 1822, there are two games (second and third) at 1868 and another shortly there after.

Please, I don't understand what that that stands for. What is it, that makes my game so special?

Not having free speech I think makes your date unobtainable for a specialist economy (where free speech makes even more of a difference than for a CE because there are more settled GAs.)

C'mon, it is my first and only try, I didn't even use Pacifism! Please, beat me!

Don't look for me to. I doubt I'll have enough time for another attempt (all of my gaming time is going elsewhere). There is a small chance I give it another go, but I doubt it (maybe if someone knocks me out of second place).

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I don't know what WW the cities are going to build or the dates of your future GAs, so I can only guess here. If your partner is going to build Eiffel and nothing else, and you are not goint to pop a single GA, then without FS each city will go Legendary in 68 and 100 turns.

If you get to pass FS in t20, then each city will go Legendary in 57 and 82 turns.

Assuming you get some GA and some WW in the worst city, you would be saving 11 turns by risking the UN.
For other games, in which MM has been prioritized over health techs, the effect of FS should be much more noticeable.

jesusin, thanks for your analysis. Yes, assuming I can get the third city caught up with the second, a best case savings of 11 turns is worth considering.

My next Great Person (82% GA, 6% each GE, GS or GP) will be in turn 257 (3 more turns). I'm at about 15 turns between GPs now and still increasing GPPs, so I expect to maintain the 15 turn time between Great People. At +250%, each GA will be 3.5 * 14 Cps (PA Partner has Sistine Chapel) = 49 Cpt.

3 GEs: I'll use one GE to rush the next Culture Multiplying building or Wonder in my weakest city as soon as one is started. I'll use another to build the UN. The third GE will be used to rush (880 H of) The Eiffel Tower (1250 H) in a few turns. That means no GE left to rush (820H of) The Statue of Liberty (1500 H).

Two of the Civs now have only 1 city due to our powerful Culture. I'll try vassalizing one or both via Peaceful means for their Health resources. I literally have only 4-6 Health via all (owned or traded) resources. My Population is only 22 now. In my first game with far more Heath resources my Population reached about 37 (with the late Health related Technologies).
My Population could be 30 by now and those extra 8 Citizens could support 4 more farms and 4 Artists (I'd lose +1 Health for cutting 2 forests though).

My PA Partner's Capital is building Broadway I'd be far happier if he was building it in his other Culture city.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

No, teams are counted as one so you'll be one with your partner. Also you get to pick your voting decision regardless of whom built UN.

So it seems reasonable to build it or let ally build it. If someone else builds it youll most likely win election anyway. But +100% culture for ramses is quite much.

Dracandross, thanks for your lucid explanation. Since my PA Partner is #1 in Population now, I also probably don't need quite as many other Friendly and Pleased Civs to win Free Speech. If I'm unlucky not to be voted UN Secretary, on all Diplomacy victory votes I will abstain and my PA Partner and I may have enough votes such that no one can win the Diplomacy victory.

Edit: (added) Is that 1900 around what were expecting to get or has someone done significantly better. Im going to hit this G now as Im bored on BTS8 already.

Yes, 1900 or better is what I expect this game. My first game was 1939 (now 8th), but I made several big mistakes in it. From previous posts it seems that three games are already pre-1900.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Shoot the Moon]

Yes, 1900 or better is what I expect this game. My first game was 1939 (now 8th), but I made several big mistakes in it. From previous posts it seems that three games are already pre-1900.

I think it is four (at least that's what I remember from scanning the update). I believe (from memory) that Wastin Time is somewhere in the 1870s.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Seems like an odd choice of civs to me. Having techies seems a lot better to me. I included Ramsesses II (PA), Mansa, Washington and one other (Asoka or Cyrus, can't remember).

I wanted Civs that wouldn't be as likely to build World Wonders, so my PA Partner could build more of them. In general this meant more of the aggressive and semi-peaceful Civs. I also was keeping shared war as an alternative to beelining Military Tradition, so this mix of Civs made sense, especially Montezuma who will go to war without any provocation. I expected that my research rate would be too fast for any other Civs to help much via trading anyway.

Not having free speech I think makes your date unobtainable for a specialist economy (where free speech makes even more of a difference than for a CE because there are more settled GAs.)

Do you mean the 1900 date? I think I can make that without Free Speech. If you mean, your second place date of 1868, then I'm sure you are right.

However, why would it be more important to have Free Speech with more GAs and when running a pure SE versus a combo CE/SE? I don't understand what you mean by "specialist economy (where free speech makes even more of a difference than for a CE because there are more settled GAs."

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

For those of us who haven't tried to win a Diplomatic Victory, I just read a diplomatic victory guide http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=198048 that states that a Diplomatic Victory resolution must be won by a two thirds majority. (I thought only a 60% majority was required.)

The Secretary General election is won by a simple majority according to the guide, (but I thought is was only 40%.)

Can anyone confirm the above? Is this consistent across all player levels?

If a 2/3 majority is really needed for a Diplomatic Victory and the player can abstain for both his and his PA Partner's votes, and the player's population plus his PA Partner's population is greater than 1/3 of the world population, the Diplomatic Victory can not be won by anyone as long as the PA team maintains more than 1/3 of the world population.

Is this the above paragraph also true?

I'm now at turn 261 with my weakest city at ~18,500 C, +300% (4x) and 504 Cpt. And my PA Partner's capital is ~22,500 C, +250% (3.5x) and 612.5 Cpt. Delhi is ~38,000 C, +100% (2x) and ~320 Cpt. This is without Free Speech.

My Diplomatic relations aren't very good with any Civs (except my PA Partner) due to about five different religious factions. I never had open borders with two of the Civs and lost and regained open borders with a third Civ (but it is running Theocracy now) and lost OB with a fourth. I should have spread my state religion a little sooner, but had better things to do with my hammers.

There are two Civs very close in population, one of which will be my UN Rival. In preparation, I gave the other Civs a few Technologies (up to +4 diplomatic trade bonus now) and gave each a great Resource deal (not long enough for a diplomatic bonus yet). Now, I'm converting one Civ to my faith, but it is only -1 due to religion, so the positive bonus is probably equally small (+1). It seems that the only thing more I can do is change Civics to one or more Civs favorite Civic for a rather substantial Diplomatic bonus. I can easily switch civics without penalty (assuming they aren't Culturally important) since Gandhi is Spiritual. Or better yet, I can switch religions to gain favor with certain Civs, get OB and convert them to the true faith (assuming I can bribe them out of Theocracy, if necessary). I have six religions in my capital and only my PA Partner shares the true religion with me, thus there's no penalty to covert unless its the seventh religion (I don't have).

I saved one GE for the UN. I think I should use it right now and try to get Free Speech passed ASAP provided my PA team has more than 1/3 of the world population and can always abstain on a Diplomatic Victory resolution vote (should my UN Rival be elected as Secretary General and put the Diplomatic Victory resolution up for a vote).

If a player is forced to vote for himself on Diplomatic Victory resolution, I can't risk building the UN, because I may be forced into a Diplomatic win.

(All the Diplomatic guides seem to assume you _want_ to win a Diplomatic Victory resolution, thus never say what is required to ensure that no one ever wins it.)

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[jesusin]

Can anyone confirm the above? Is this consistent across all player levels?
...
Is this the above paragraph also true?

Just check F8 screen, the percentages are there.

I saved one GE for the UN. I think I should use it right now and try to get Free Speech passed ASAP provided my PA team has more than 1/3 of the world population and can always abstain on a Diplomatic Victory resolution vote (should my UN Rival be elected as Secretary General and put the Diplomatic Victory resolution up for a vote).

If there are 5 religion blocks, go for it. Nobody can possibly win via Diplo. Now, if you do and then you lose the game, I will delete this piece of advice!

If a player is forced to vote for himself on Diplomatic Victory resolution, I can't risk building the UN, because I may be forced into a Diplomatic win.

You can abstain or even vote the opponent if you feel like it.

 

[bshumbera]

If a 2/3 majority is really needed for a Diplomatic Victory and the player can abstain for both his and his PA Partner's votes, and the player's population plus his PA Partner's population is greater than 1/3 of the world population, the Diplomatic Victory can not be won by anyone as long as the PA team maintains more than 1/3 of the world population.

I don't think you control your PA partner's vote. You get your vote and he gets his. You only get to control what resolution is put up for the vote. This means that, if you win the first vote, you can put up Free Speech and never put up the Diplomatic Victory vote. After Free Speech, you can simply opt for no resolution. Unfortunately, all of this means you can't guarantee that your PA partner will vote yes on the Free Speech resolution so you are running this risk.