G-Minor 90

[Ozbenno]

[img=right]http://www.civfanatics.net/methos/hof/staff/gauntlet.gif[/img]While the general Hall of Fame is an ongoing competition, we like to run time-definite competitions between updates that we call Gauntlets. Standard Hall of Fame rules (*) still apply, but any games meeting the settings will be counted towards the Gauntlet.

(*) Please read the >> HOF rules << BEFORE playing!​

Settings:

• Victory Condition: Diplomatic (though all victory conditions must be enabled)
• Difficulty: Warlord
• Starting Era: Ancient
• Map Size: Small
• Map Type: Any
• Speed: Epic
• Civ: Any
• Opponents: Any
• Version: 1.74.004, 2.13.004 or 3.19.003
• Date: 10th to 25th February 2010

Must not play as Inca.
The earliest finish date wins, with score as a tiebreaker.

 

[ianw1610]

Hmmm - so I woke up this morning and checked the QM tables... I noted that I had dropped 1 place to QM #8. Fine.

Then I checked the new Gauntlets, to see that my fellow Chokonut, Mr Ozbenno (who, coincidentally is 1 place behind me in the new QM rankings), has picked one of my own HOF #1 settings to use as the new G-Minor. If I lose some points from a lost HOF #1, Ozbenno could, of course, edge ahead of me as QM #8 in time for the next update...

...

...








Good luck everyone! Remember that, on this low level, Settlers can be popped from Goody Huts... they could prove the difference between a good finish date and a great finish date...

 

[digikill]

Why Inca is banned for every game?

 

[duckstab]

The Inca UU and UB both confer substantial early game advantages. Since gauntlets are usually won by the earliest finish, players who chose Inca would almost always win.

 

[Ozbenno]

Then I checked the new Gauntlets, to see that my fellow Chokonut, Mr Ozbenno (who, coincidentally is 1 place behind me in the new QM rankings), has picked one of my own HOF #1 settings to use as the new G-Minor. If I lose some points from a lost HOF #1, Ozbenno could, of course, edge ahead of me as QM #8 in time for the next update...

Surely you're not relying on small Warlord games for your lofty QM ranking

I actually made a mistake in the game setting, it was meant to be normal speed, oh well epic it is.

Correct on Inca being banned. Doesn't make as much difference below Monarch level but it is easier to just (in general) ban them from Gauntlets. I might actually have an Inca gauntlet soon though.

 

[adrianj]

Well, I've got the ball rolling with a Zulu OCC Boreal map. Silly options for this gauntlet I know, but I needed them for my QM

My date was 1605 AD, not bad, but I'm sure it'll be beaten.

My strategy was to hoard as many religions as possible to keep everyone happy with eachother. Opponents were hand picked to like useful early civics like Organised Religion, Caste System and Bureau. In hindsight, OR probably wasn't the best choice since Great Scientists did the bulk of the research through bulbs, and Pacifism would likely have been better.

I'm going to try another one, this time OCC with Sumeria, again for EQM. OCC games just go so much faster

 

[Ozbenno]

Well we have 5 entries so far, anyone willing to own up to the time to beat yet? Who has everyone being using as leader and opponents? OCC or multi?

Was going to take a break on the Emporer level Challenge games for a quick stab at this one. Elizabeth seems the logical choice but if I went OCC I might go Gandhi (or even Saladin in Vanilla).

 

[babaBrian]

I've only played a handful of diplo games, so I've been playing this gauntlet setting today. I've had three successful attempts. My best is with Elizabeth for a 1305AD win, 2nd in the table so far. For opponents, I picked the easy-to-friend civs: Gandhi, Hatty, Rammesses, Zara. So far, I found lakes to be a good map since I can find a good mix of food, gold, and gems, and there's plenty of room for everybody to get along.

I'm still an amateur at rapid teching. So far I have the following game milestones, but I would like some ideas for improvement:
Select 'no city razing'; walk into undefended city early for free second city
Tech early religions
Tech writing --> build library --> run two scientists to get Great Scientist --> found acedamy
Tech Alphabet --> Pick up missing techs through trade
Tech CoL and Math
Build Oracle to get CS --> Run Bureaucracy
Cultivate GP farm, focusing on great scientists.
Build Pyramids and back off scientists to get a Great Engineer, save him for UN
Use great scientists to build up to liberalism
At same time tech to Astronomy --> Sci Meth --> Electricity (using great scientists if available)
pre-chop highest production city to prepare for UN production
Liberalism --> Radio
tech Mass Media
Use saved great engineer and chop UN
Assign civics to give boost to relations
Cross fingers on election day

Questions:
- What's the best way of getting a 1 (even 2?) great engineers?
- What's the best way to spend the great scientists?
- What are some other ideas for maps?

 

[The-Hawk]

Can someone remind me of the self vote rules for Diplo? IIRC in Vanilla and Warlords, you can self vote. I know BTS changed that, but I don't recall the exact rules.

Given the low level, I'm wondering if Vanilla, early warmongering and then self vote might be fastest?

I would like some ideas for improvement:

Your tactics look pretty good to me. My only question is why go for early religions? That seems like a distraction from teching to Mass Media?

 

[SirDrake]

Given the low level, I'm wondering if Vanilla... might be fastest?

Me, too. But I was mostly considering the variation in year counts vs. turn counts, and generally wondering in a much more geekish matter.


My question is: Which version gives you the earlier year assuming the same turn? I did some simple multiplication using the GameSpeedInfo.xml files from BtS and Warlords/Vanilla, looking at Epic game speed. Here are my preliminary results:

Spoiler :

0 turns
War/van = 4000 BC
BTS = 4000 BC

100 turns
War/van = 1000 BC
BTS = 1500 BC

140 turns
War/van = 400 BC
BTS = 500 BC

230 turns
War/van = 950 AD
BTS = 850 AD

240 turns
War/van = 1100 AD
BTS = 950 AD

270 turns
War/van = 1280 AD
BTS = 1250 AD

310 turns
War/van = 1520 AD
BTS = 1450 AD

345 turns
War/van = BTS = 1625 AD

360 turns
War/van = 1670 AD
BTS = 1700 AD

380 turns
War/van = 1730
BTS = 1740

420 turns
War/van = 1810
BTS = 1820

430 turns
War/van = 1820
BTS = 1840

530 turns
War/van = 1920
BTS = 1940

570 turns
War/van = BTS = 1960

660 turns
War/van = 2050
BTS = 1995

770 turns
War/van = NA
BTS = 2050

As you can see, BtS gives you a better finish date for anything prior to 1625 AD (345 game turns). Then Warlords/Vanilla is superior up until 1960.

That doesn't take into account the extra technologies on BtS, so I compared the computer-suggested Mass Media beelines (on Prince level, I think, with Standard world size):
Warlords: 27 technologies, 56785
Beyond the Sword: 28 technologies, 57405

Nearly identical. And nearly useless, because the beeline skips over a lot of must-have techs like Code of Laws and Education.


Here are the years/turns/rates that I used to calculate the above list, if anyone cares:

Spoiler :

WARLORDS/VANILLA

100 turns, 30 y/t: 3000 years
4000 - 1000 BC (turn 100)

140 turns, 15 y/t: 2100 years
1000 BC - 1100 AD (turn 240)

70 turns, 6 y/t: 420 years
1100 AD - 1520 AD (turn 310)

70 turns, 3 y/t: 210 years
1520 AD - 1730 AD (turn 380)

40 turns, 2 y/t: 80 years
1730 AD - 1810 AD (turn 420)

240 turns, 1 y/t: 240 years
1810 AD - 2050 AD (turn 660)


BTS

140 turns, 25 y/t: 3500 years
4000 - 500 BC (turn 140)

90 turns, 15 y/t: 1350 years
500 BC - 850 AD (turn 230)

40 turns, 10 y/t: 400 years
850 AD - 1250 AD (turn 270)

90 turns, 5 y/t: 450 years
1250 AD - 1700 AD (turn 360)

70 turns, 2 y/t: 140 years
1700 - 1840 AD (turn 430)

100 turns, 1 y/t: 100 years
1840 AD - 1940 AD (turn 530)

220 turns, .5 y/t: 110 years
1940 - 2050 (turn 770)

For reasons I cannot yet fathom, the BtS xml WorldSpeed Info seems to add up to 770 turns, yet when I launch a game it says "750 turns left!" I believe it's giving the latest turn/date where you can launch a space colony and still achieve a win (with 20 turns minimum victory delay), but if it's something else and I made an arithmetic error, please let me know.

Cheers,
Jason

 

[The-Hawk]

OK, got my first try done. 820 AD, currently holding down the top spot. Was a strange game. One AI (Wang) was buddhist, the others all hindu. So I was building settlers and gifting them to Wang hoping to make him my opponent. Worked perfect, built UN and won General Secretary vote vs. Wang. Then, one turn before my chance to vote for the win, Qin (Hindu) passed him! Turns out it didn't matter, I was able to beat Qin by one vote.

 

[babaBrian]

Well done, Hawk. I've tried quite a few times and I can't seem to beat my 1305AD date. Any other helpful hints you're willing to share?

I've been playing mostly as Elizabeth. I'm having a hard time figuring out how much to farm to grow population for a GP farm vs. cottage up for beaker output. When looking for a good start, should I be looking for 2+ gold/gems for max beaker output focusing on Bureau, or should I be looking for fish and food to max GP output on Caste System & Pacifism. I suppose both would be best, but which is more essential to a fast finish? I've been ending up with 4 cities usually. Is that about right? Usually about 4 workers as well. I'm also unsure of my choices to build libraries, universities, etc. vs. staying on research.

How fortunate of an early goody hut bonanza is required to get pre-1000AD? I noticed that your choices of Qin and Wang as opponents are both protective. Any reason you chose those two?

As for diplomacy, I've been peacefully keeping good relationships with everybody since I'm not sure who will end up being my UN opposition. Is there strategy I'm missing by not picking an enemy early and bullying them?

I played out a few on lakes, and now I'm trying terra for more seafood. Still seem to be missing the boat, as it were

So many questions... but that's good for me - this gauntlet has gotten me more interested in a VC I have neglected thus far.

 

[Ozbenno]

I noticed that your choices of Qin and Wang as opponents are both protective. Any reason you chose those two?

Caste System (Wang) and Bureaucracy (Qin) are civics you will be in most of the game, so these two are good opponents, Wang will drop Caste for Emancipation if the get too bad but if you're finishing in 820AD like The-Hawk, I doubt anyone knows Democracy.

 

[The-Hawk]

Well done, Hawk. I've tried quite a few times and I can't seem to beat my 1305AD date. Any other helpful hints you're willing to share?

Of course, I've always felt the main goal of Gauntlets is to share knowledge so the community raises the bar. I'm hoping someone can take these ideas and build on them to knock off my score...

I've been playing mostly as Elizabeth.

Yes, I played Liz as well.

I'm having a hard time figuring out how much to farm to grow population for a GP farm vs. cottage up for beaker output.

Not sure I did this optimally. I never got a good GP farm up, none of my cities was all that strong for food. On the other hand, I settled a couple of sites for their river tiles, but never really had enough time to cottage them all the way up.

My Great Peeps were:

Prophet (settled in capital)
Scientist (Academy in capital)
Scientist (bulb, I think Printing Press)
Scientist (bulb Physics)
Scientist from Physics (bulb Electricity)
Engineer (rush UN)

When looking for a good start, should I be looking for 2+ gold/gems for max beaker output focusing on Bureau, or should I be looking for fish and food to max GP output on Caste System & Pacifism. I suppose both would be best, but which is more essential to a fast finish?

I had a 3 gold site, but settled on one of the gold tiles (needed the plains hill). So basically a 2 gold, 2 food site (rice and grass cows).

I've been ending up with 4 cities usually. Is that about right? Usually about 4 workers as well.

At least 5 for sure (so you can build Oxford). I ended up with 7 cities.

I'm also unsure of my choices to build libraries, universities, etc. vs. staying on research.

• every city got a granary
• 5 cities got libraries and universities so I could build Oxford.
• 2 cities got forges (my engineer city and my UN city)
• the capital got a few other odds and ends (like a market and observatory) but in hindsight these were probably a waste
• one crap city built settlers the whole time to gift to Wang
• pretty much all the other hammers went into building research

I built 5 Wonders:

• Oracle for CS and Oxford in my capital
• Mids and Hanging Gardens in my GE city (its whole purpose was to get a GE for UN)
• UN in a city saved for this purpose (left lots of forests to chop)

How fortunate of an early goody hut bonanza is required to get pre-1000AD?

This was not a good hut game. 5 huts popped, got 1 worker, 1 tech (myst), 2 maps, and experience . I had a couple of early aborts that did much better (e.g. a settler would have been nice).

I noticed that your choices of Qin and Wang as opponents are both protective. Any reason you chose those two?

I took Qin for Bureau, Wang for Caste, Asoka and Willem for Free Religion. Turns out these were all almost useless. I did get critical civics value from Qin. I don't think I ever went to Caste because I did not have a good site for GP farm (didn't matter since my intest was for Wang to be my opponent). I was not on FR long enough for Asoka or Willem to care.

As for diplomacy, I've been peacefully keeping good relationships with everybody since I'm not sure who will end up being my UN opposition. Is there strategy I'm missing by not picking an enemy early and bullying them?

No wars in my game. No AI was close enough to make a rush worthwhile and did not steal any workers.

I played out a few on lakes, and now I'm trying terra for more seafood. Still seem to be missing the boat, as it were

I played Pangaea... no particular reason.

So many questions... but that's good for me - this gauntlet has gotten me more interested in a VC I have neglected thus far.

Yep, that's what Gauntlets are for!

 

[babaBrian]

Wow, that helped a ton! Thanks!

I finished 835AD using Gandhi. Missed #1 spot by 2 turns!! My mistake was experimenting by grabbing a great artist via Music, reasearching divine right, and then using the great artist to accelerate Mass Media. Cost me at least 3 turns.

Granaries really helped. And I learned to make use of slavery which I was neglecting before.

I'm not positive, but I think Gandhi's spiritual trait and fast workers give a slight advantage over Elizabeth's financial trait on epic speed.

I've stayed with my strategy to start with 5 civs, knowing that I'll wipe one out and take their city. Lessens the need for fortunate huts and saves time building a settler.

Getting stone and marble are also really helpful for a fast finish.

 

[Infantry#14]

my first game in a month

-gandhi, b/c i like philosophical and spirtual
-fast workers are awesome, they are like pratorians of goodie huts on low levels
-pop 3 settlers in the beginning and captured wang kon's capital
-oracle, pyramid, hanging garden and hagia sofia
-about 8 scientists and 2 engineers, 1 artist from music
-totally forgot about liberalism, didnt know it requires music
-use the artist to partially get mass media
-7 cities total
-all opponents are financial (except Hatty) to speed up tech
-bulb education, printing press, physics, electricity and mass media, fission (although havent finished it yet), 2 academies
-finish 805AD

-couldve done much better, b/c founding 5 cities at once put economy to 0% research in the beginning
-wasting workers turn frequently, about 12 workers in the end
-spare 1 settler since medieval ages

 

[The-Hawk]

Well done ! That score may be hard to beat. Three settlers is huge. Guess I better give this one another go!

 

[WastinTime]

I haven't done a diplo in a year, so I cranked this one out. Things went well, so I probably won't try to improve.

160 AD.

I had just one gold, corn, sheep and 3 flood plains in the capital (nothing special). I figured the game was too short to bother with too many cottages or the financial trait, so Gandhi for me on low Inland Sea, max opponents.

I only popped one settler and one worker. (if I didn't get a settler, I just abandoned the game)

I captured one neighbor's empty capital. (If I couldn't capture it, abandon)

Once I got my non-abandon criteria met, I did my usual -- minimum empire necessary for Oxford -- so, 5 cities.

Only a few warriors needed for police duty, no wars.

I didn't realize how many forests were needed to chop the UN, so that was delayed a couple turns.

I didn't have enough workers. Three early and only 5 at the end.

Great people: One GS for academy, 4 GS bulbed tech, 1 GE for the UN. (plus free GS and GA bulbed)

 

[adrianj]

one crap city built settlers the whole time to gift to Wang

I'm not sure I quite understand what's happening here.
Wang was generally disliked by the others - so you wanted him as your opponent, correct? So gifting him settlers increased his pop to ensure this was the case.

Were you gifting him cities that you had settled near his borders? In this case, wouldn't you get a -ve diplo hit with the others for trading with their worst enemy? Or did you gift the settler unit?

160 AD.

Wow!

 

[The-Hawk]

I'm not sure I quite understand what's happening here.
Wang was generally disliked by the others - so you wanted him as your opponent, correct? So gifting him settlers increased his pop to ensure this was the case.

Were you gifting him cities that you had settled near his borders? In this case, wouldn't you get a -ve diplo hit with the others for trading with their worst enemy? Or did you gift the settler unit?

Yes, I wanted to grow Wang's population so he would be in second place. I thought his best potential sites were within his cultural borders where I could not settle (e.g. had seafood nearby). So I was gifting him settlers. Of course, he never placed them where I would have .

160 AD.

Well done! Looks like you got a few more GPs than me, my lack of a farm site hurt. Two questions:

- Did you get the GA from music? I'm wondering if that detour is worthwhile.
- I assume you built GE generating wonders, any others? E.g. I'm wondering if Gr Lib is worthwhile, if nothing else than for GS points? In fact, since I popped a profit, I'm even wondering if Oracle is a good move?