Galleys in oceans

[trickofthehand]

The AI has bonuses given to it to simulate harder difficulty levels, not blatant exploits.

 

[Camikaze]

Why wouldn't the AI also be able to take advantage of this (or more to the point, why wouldn't the AI also be able to waste their time attempting to take advantage of this)?

 

[That Other Guy]

Could you add a feature where galleys could only enter water tiles from which they could see land? Wouldn't that represent being able to see land reasonably well?

 

[Silurian]

That other guy@
Interesting idea
I assume you mean mountains
But you will still have a chance of getting lost when cloud covers the mountain etc

 

[Jarlaxe Baenre]

I think galleys not being able to enter ocean is stupid. There were lots of idiots out there who tested their canoes against the ocean - Og the Caveman, that body that washed up on shore this morning, and Columbus (Ok, it was a large canoe. And the reason I say he's an idiot is that he caused all this idiocy in future generations - 50% of people I know call Native Americans Indians, even though India is half a world away.

 

[Razorwing]

I thought it was annoying that the AI sent out work boats for reconnaisance. I'm sure it makes strategic sense, but work boats aren't meant to be used that way. If there are work boats in Civilization V they should not be allowed to move outside their own civilization's cultural borders.

I like the fact that galleys can't move onto ocean squares, although I would have liked a third water type - i.e., "Sea" - inbetween coast and ocean. The "Sea" squares would link nearby landmasses, so that you would always be able to access landmasses you can see just beyond the black fog of war.

 

[kochman]

I think galleys not being able to enter ocean is stupid. There were lots of idiots out there who tested their canoes against the ocean - Og the Caveman, that body that washed up on shore this morning, and Columbus (Ok, it was a large canoe. And the reason I say he's an idiot is that he caused all this idiocy in future generations - 50% of people I know call Native Americans Indians, even though India is half a world away.

This is true...
Consider the Aboriginies and the Polynesians. Pre-history these guys were going well beyond their site discovering new islands on some pretty crappy rafts basically. That is how they got to Australia and all the islands... all the way out to Hawaii!

Also consider Seaworthy, this guy crossed oceans on rafts!
http://www.amazon.com/Seaworthy-Adrift-William-Willis-Rafting/dp/030733595X/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1268053104&sr=1-2

 

[Earthling]

I do want this back - both galleys not being allowed in oceans but culture breaking this (it's soooo annoying when enemy culture extends into the ocean, their galleys - and maybe barbs? - can go there but not you) and just for general getting to land you know is there. I don't care about people trying to exploit traveling across an entire ocean or something; a reasonable chance of loss prevents this. Also you could just make founding cities somewhere inacessible by ocean really expensive - so if you're just island hopping and the cities/culture would connect soon great, otherwise no exploit.

 

[Hengoroth]

Why must everything we do in civ be controllable? life isnt controllable,even though we do everything we can to controll it. I like the idea of sending out a galley on a high chance of suicide run into the unknown. If the galley takes damage on its trip from the harsh climate,its more realistic and u get the chance of a babarian galley can finish u off when u see the promised land.

Is it so bad that the ai doesnt do this? u can write it off as the other civs are more conservative like the world was around columbus s time and u are the only one brave enough+suicidal to do it,but the ai thinks it is more economical to use it to invade ur towns?

U could set a cap up to the age of the compass etc on how many colonies u can beyond the ocean tile before the invention of the compass

The only reason vikings could sail to america was that they had a chain of bases on iceland to greenland etc to the west that they used to sail to america. When greenland became too cold,the vikings lost the ability to sail to america. That brings me on to volcanos in civ and random destructable events,but that goes to far for this tread.

 

[Camikaze]

Well, everything should be controllable. I mean, if you get run over by a car in life, that's just life, because as the old adage goes, 'life sucks'. But it isn't very fun in a game if everything is controlled by chance and things are not reliant on your skill. Having said that, though, there needs to be some element of randomness to stave off predictability, and to add flavour. So again, I like the idea of giving galleys a faint chance to make it.

 

[kochman]

I found Hengoroth's post interestingly paradoxical because in the beginning he is calling for less rules/control (allow galleys to sail in oceans)... and to balance out the removal of that, he suggests a new rule/control (limit the number of cities on can have on remote continents).

 

[Silurian]

I do not find it paradoxical

 

[Jarlaxe Baenre]

I found Hengoroth's post interestingly paradoxical because in the beginning he is calling for less rules/control (allow galleys to sail in oceans)... and to balance out the removal of that, he suggests a new rule/control (limit the number of cities on can have on remote continents).

Then perhaps there could be a mix. You can have unlimited cities on remote continents, but a random event is likely to occur where a colony forms (and declares war on you) and you lose a few of the cities.

 

[kochman]

Yes, this type of thing makes sense. Rhye's & Fall of civilizations basically has this ability. Pretty cool I think.

 

[Tlalynet]

How about the ability to explore but not settle? Even post astronomy ships could be destroyed by a storm, even if they where more durable. The big limiting factor is water and thus cargo space. Food is a secondary limiting factor since even though you can fish scurvy will creep up on you. A galley with a scout or exporter can attempt it, a galley with a settler or military unit gets a big penalty to its odds.

 

[Jarlaxe Baenre]

Hmm. That sounds like a good idea. But post astronomy ships should have 95% odds per turn, to make it fair to launch naval invasions in the late game. And maybe the units in the ship could also have a live-die probability.

 

[Tlalynet]

I don't really think it would be great to have ships randomly be destroyed by storms, I'm just saying durability isn't the limiting factor. Sure a large, well manufactured ship with good materials or a bronze hull has a much better chance of weathering a storm, but extremely rudimentary vessels are capable of ocean voyages. Storms may be a chance thing, but supplies are the real limiting factor when sending an army or settling party overseas. For supply space you need a big ship that operates primarily by sails so you can have a smaller crew, not a slave powered galley.

 

[TheDS]

And yes, we all know how culturally unified the Aboriginals are with the Burmans, so it makes sense that we should be able to send galleys out to found colonies in places we can't trade with.

OTOH, for something a little more realistic, why don't we see barbarians settling on remote islands and such? Then we can pretend they were a long lost colony of ours and annex them when we get Galleons.

 

[Camikaze]

I thought Barbarians often do found cities on uninhabited land masses.

 

[frekk]

It is also an issue of supplies with these vessels. Can a galley make a voyage across the ocean with the limited cargo room it has for food and water?

Absolutely not! Galleys, of course, were moved by manpower rather than just wind, and instead of a crew of 15 or 20 sailors, held hundreds of rowers. The supply requirements for even a short voyage were vast.

The other issue with the galley is that it is really unable to handle rough sea conditions, because of the shape of the hull - the deck is much too low.

Finally, galleys could not remain in the water long - usually they were not left in the water more than a day. Otherwise they would probably sink.

They were constructed of woods such as pine and fir. They are very light woods, making the ships lighter and faster, but they absorb water readily. This necessitated beaching the ships every night to allow the sponge-like hull to dry out. In the Meditteranean this was never terribly difficult; with a speed of 6 or 7 knots, a galley was never more than a day from land.

Of course, there were craft that didn't suffer from these limitations, but they weren't galleys. The Romans used a sailing ship of sorts for most cargo and passenger duties, which, if they had possessed the navigational skills, might have been able to venture into blue water. As far as the Polynesians, they did explore most of the Pacific in small craft, however, I would not characterize them merely as "rafts" or "canoes". They were trimarans and catamarans, seemingly simple but actually quite advanced.