Game Settings and Leader Choice

[galdarian]

Carthage would be higher in my opinion than Dutch based upon Charismatic > Creative. Charismatic has longer game benifits than creative. Granted early border pops are critical but not impossible without creative. Considering this game will be a military tech race till at least mid game libraries are going to be an priority (which gives you the culture for the border pop). Charismatic will be useful for military for the whole game. Not to mention the happiness will be a great help early on.

This is good discussion though because whichever civ we choose will determine build orders and tech priorities in the early game. With this in mind if we map out our first 10 techs i'd be thinking

Carthage
Fishing
Mining
1. Bronze Working: for the chops and the copper reveal
2. The Wheel: Mostly as the pre req for Pottery
3. Agriculture: Any food resource will require this (pigs / sheep / cattle can use this as the pre req)

Dutch
Fishing
Agriculture
1. Mining: Pre req for BW
2. Bronze Working: for the chops and the copper reveal
3. The Wheel: Mostly as the pre req for Pottery

Both
4. Pottery: Because we like spam ;-)
5. Writting: Libraries
6. Hunting: We need military protection
7. Archery: This is the best early defensive unit
8. Horseback Riding: This will give us our UU
9. Mysticism: Pre req for religious
10. Masonary: If we have stone / marble we will want to consider chasing it

At this point we could asses the possibility of the bee lining the CS sling however I personally reckon we're wasting our time unless we're out in front tech wise AND have marble AND have a city to produce The Oracle.

 

[Provolution]

Ok, I will come up with a 10 tech plan for Carthage (including the two first)

1. Fishing
2. Mining
3. Hunting (send out early scout, as well as building camps)
4. Wheel, connect resources (food, gold, silver, gems and possibly deers, elephants and beavers)
5. Agriculture
6. Pottery
7. Animal Husbandry (reveal availability of UU - Numidian Cavalry as well as getting cheaper writing)
8. Writing (positioning in case of need to get quickly to Math or Alphabet -early libraries)
9. Mysticism (time to build Monument in order to get added Charismatic happiness)
10. Sailing (in order to get Lighthouse and galleys for next stage exploration and expansion)
11. Iron working (in order to reveal iron resource as well as prereq for Compass)
12/13 Horseman Riding in order to get UU. or Compass for the UB Cothon, pending the need at that time.

 

[Earthling]

I really think Netherlands could be the way to go, though. It seems like navy will have some impact on this map.

The other points about the Netherlands are good still of course. However I cannot stress enough how much I do NOT want to rely on the map. For one thing, last BtS Demogame, my team, along with another team who chose the Dutch, both were expecting a naval element, with similar "custom map settings" suggest, and the map was a pure Pangaea. Not that it was particularly bad (one other team had a rough start however, but that could have been fixed on the same map) but I do not think the naval element is a guarantee. If it is important, I would still expect the mapmakers to "balance" it for all teams so we wouldn't get a big advantage anyway, say instead of a real New World each team gets its own mini-island continent. Not what I'd want, but what I expect with the game/map settings now voted on.

I'll agree with Carthage/Netherlands second in the end then. Both are solid, I'm happy to do what makes the team happy - and we really can't go too wrong with these civs, it is a good call. And if they let us switch if someone else chooses Carthage, that would be my preference too - so we'll have a niche no matter what.

 

[galdarian]

Provolution from a build order POV I assume then that you intend to do something other than

1. Worker
2. Worker (chop 1 forest with 1st worker)
3. Settler (chop 2 forest with each worker)

Depending on resources and settlement this is generally settler by turn 40ish.
Are you thinking of just using the chop overspill to complete the settler?

 

[Provolution]

I generally like to focus on massive food surpluses, and in this way churn out both settlers and workers, yet, I may like to put in BW earlier, as I forgot that anyways (also for slavery).

 

[galdarian]

In summary I think there seems to be a consensus about financial traits

This narrows the list of 52 to 10 leaders (across 9 Civs)

Carthage : Numidian Cavalry (Horse Archer) : Cothon (Harbour) : Fishing : Mining : Hannibal : Charismatic
Dutch : East Indiaman (Galley) : Dike (Levee) : Fishing : Agriculture : Willem van Oranje : Creative
England : Redcoat (Rifleman) : Stock Exchange (Bank) : Fishing : Mining : Victoria : Imperialistic
England : Redcoat (Rifleman) : Stock Exchange (Bank) : Fishing : Mining : Elizabeth : Philosophical
Inca : Quechua (Warrior) : Terrace (Granary) : Agriculture : Mysticism : Huayna Capac : Industrious
Korea : Hwacha (Catapult) : Seowon (University) : Mysticism : Mining : Wang Kon : Protective
Mali : Skirmisher (Archer) : Mint (Forge) : Mining : The Wheel : Mansa Musa : Spiritual
Maya : Holkan (Spearman) : Ball Court (Colosseum) : Mysticism : Mining : Pacal II : Expansive
Persia : Immortal (Chariot) : Apothecary (Grocer) : Agriculture : Hunting : Darius I : Organized
Vikings : Beserker (Maceman) : Trading Post (Lighthouse) : Fishing : Hunting : Ragnar : Aggressive

Assume that ALL 6 teams will be picked from the above list.
We are currently trying to decide (coincidentally) between the two at the top of that list.

Do we need to put this to a poll??
Once again silence will be interpreted as condoning the opinions of the vocal so speak up fellow Q.

 

[Provolution]

Carthage and Dutch it will be.

 

[Sherlock613]

OK, now for the good stuff!

Tech and build order, imo. First off, it depends on what our cap looks like.

Let's assume we start with Carthage (Fishing/Mining)
I would go:
1) Bronze Working (hoping copper nearby, to delay archers!)
2) Agriculture
3) Animal Husbandry
4) The Wheel
5) Pottery
6) Writing
7) Hunting (but only if we have fur/ivory around...)
8) Mysticism
9) Sailing or Iron Working
10) Sailing or Iron Working
11) Mathematics (for super chops) or Archery/Horseback (for UU)
*If we pop bronze, we could delay Iron, maybe even past Construction, until jungles are an issue...

I'm glad to see we are all almost on the same page, when it comes to development.
First build is clearly a worker. Then, the first chop goes into next worker.
After that, we can build workboat and grow to size 2, while putting chops into settler? Hopefully we just get an irrigated corn and don't have to worry about throwing in the fishing boats for early food.

I disagree with such early research of the wheel. We need to get our tiles productive before we connect them! I think Agriculture and Animal Husbandry (to get our food resources going and pop horses on grass river next to capital) will be more important.

Then, with early writing, we can let our cap grow to size 6, put in 2 scientists, and pop a great scientist around 400-500 BC for an academy! Personally, I think this could give us a nice competitive advantage.

Hunting can wait. Warriors are fine as scouts, especially because scouts will get killed by barbs. At least warriors have a shot. Throwing it in right after Writing will get us those happy faces from ivory and furs in time.

 

[galdarian]

I've just been mucking around with a random Big and Small map with the game settings being discussed and I agree with you on the wheel. Especially if we pop a clam / fish or 2 for the capital.

Turn 0: {Screenshot}
Assuming you build on a standard tile you'll be running 2F / 1P / 1G
Build a Work Boat (30 turns)
Research Bronze Working (12 Turns)
Warrior to explore (There are no huts to pop)
Turn 11: Carthage grows to 2
You can use the population to add to whatever you like as it'll all end up as overspill
It just depends what overspill you want (food / production / gold )
Turn 12: Finish Bronze Working
Switch to Slavery (Anarchy)
Research Sailing
Turn 13: Anarchy Over
Whip for the Work Boat
Turn 14: {Screenshot}
Build Worker
Move work boat to fish (In this eg. it takes the full movement)
Turn 21: Whip for Worker
Turn 22: {Screenshot}
Worker ready for chopping
1 tile improved running 5F / 0P / 3G

2 turns delay on the worker for a superfast 2nd worker (6 Turns) or perhaps the other work boat in which time you could grow again and whip.

 

[Sherlock613]

OK I just created a worldbuilder to run it.

If we go worker first, then chop out workboat, then get worker, by turn 26, we have a free forest chop (2nd worker finished naturally), 1 fish, a capital growing from 1 to 2 in 3 turns, and have yet to go to slavery.

If we go workboat first, building it asap with plains hill, then switch to slavery, at turn 25 we have 2 workers, 1 fish, a capital growing from 1 to 2 in 5 turns, and have gone to slavery. We have also used 1 whipping bonus.


However, this is all moot, because we would obviously build on that plains hill gold tile, which we would explore with our warrior. Those extra river tiles, grass and flood plains, and the rice! It's a no brainer. Plus, on the 2 hammer start, 1st worker takes 8 turns. That means, without forest chops or slavery, we'd have 2 workers by turn 17 (1 turn for capital move). They would have nothing to do but mine that upper gold plains hill. But, 2 turns after bronze working, you have 2 workers to chop (probably going into a settler). So, by turn 28 or so, you have had agriculture and have irrigated the rice. You also have a mined plains hill. And, you mostly have your first settler out. Clearly, this is the best choice.

 

[galdarian]

How is it a worker in 8 turns?? I assume you mean settle 2W which gives you 2 / 2 / 3 plus you would work the FP for another 3 / 0 / 1 which gives you 2 hammers + 3 surplus food = 5 into 60 and i get 12 turns to worker.

BW in turn 11, no switch to slavery (No point yet). Worker 1 by turn 12. Chop the forest 1N. Then mine gold mountains 1NE. Turn 21 worker 2, worker 1 finishes mine. Switch to settler which you would get at turn 33 with a double chop (earlier if you switch to work the rice).

Did I do that right? My maths is prolly out. Wouldn't it also depend on how you want to specialise the Capital?

I just want to see the map and get on with the game

P.S> If you settle inland you also lose the UB. For that example it still may be moot, we just need to keep that in mind.

 

[Sherlock613]

How is it a worker in 8 turns?? I assume you mean settle 2W which gives you 2 / 2 / 3 plus you would work the FP for another 3 / 0 / 1 which gives you 2 hammers + 3 surplus food = 5 into 60 and i get 12 turns to worker.

BW in turn 11, no switch to slavery (No point yet). Worker 1 by turn 12. Chop the forest 1N. Then mine gold mountains 1NE. Turn 21 worker 2, worker 1 finishes mine. Switch to settler which you would get at turn 33 with a double chop (earlier if you switch to work the rice).

Did I do that right? My maths is prolly out. Wouldn't it also depend on how you want to specialise the Capital?

I just want to see the map and get on with the game

P.S> If you settle inland you also lose the UB. For that example it still may be moot, we just need to keep that in mind.

Did that last one on Quick speed! My bad!

My point is still the same- the double hammer start is really a big deal. Also, you don't have to build the workboat, which saves early hammers. I would actually argue for the plains hill spot even over our UB (which is an extra trade route), because we would pick up so many river tiles that would be great for cottaging.

Anyway, let's get to the actual game and worry about it then. I'm sure they'll design an interesting start for us.