Gamespot: chat with Firaxis about Civ5 - April 22

Basically your suggestion of simply making the AI purely try to win removes diplomacy from the game

Sorry, but where did I say that? I've only said that the AI should have the same Free Agency as Humans do-or else it removes a lot of the challenge of the game because that gives you such a massive, unfair advantage-but I also said that the freedom of both parties should be at least partly restricted by the mood of your respective nations.
I also believe that having the actual diplomacy modifiers visible adds nothing to the game, & in fact makes the system too exploitable. All of the information currently available in the diplomacy screen in Civ4-minus the exact numbers-could be just as easily conveyed to you by your Foreign Adviser. A bit of vagary surrounding your current diplomatic standing I think actually *adds* to the enjoyment of the game.

Aussie.
 
AIs should play to win, strategically. It does not remove diplomacy from the game. Just play Civ4 multiplayer. But Ais should be able to recognize some basic facts like not being first in score. If time/score victory is enabled, then it should recognize that a player having a better score than it other than its enemy is a good reason to stop war.
 
Sorry, but where did I say that? I've only said that the AI should have the same Free Agency as Humans do-or else it removes a lot of the challenge of the game because that gives you such a massive, unfair advantage-but I also said that the freedom of both parties should be at least partly restricted by the mood of your respective nations.
I also believe that having the actual diplomacy modifiers visible adds nothing to the game, & in fact makes the system too exploitable. All of the information currently available in the diplomacy screen in Civ4-minus the exact numbers-could be just as easily conveyed to you by your Foreign Adviser. A bit of vagary surrounding your current diplomatic standing I think actually *adds* to the enjoyment of the game.

Aussie.

If the diplomatic modifiers are 'There' they should NOT be hidden

That just leads into a 'Blind' exploitable system... that is BAD. (Civ 3)

Anytime there are numbers that affect gameplay, those numbers should be Clearly Visible, unless the game element they affect/are derived from is not visible.

Now either
1. 'good relations' are meaningless
2. 'good relations' are significant but I only get vague ideas about what constitutes them (Civ3)
3. 'good relations' are significant and I know exactly what to do to get/lose them (Civ4)

Option 2 is horrible, very, very bad.

Option 1 is far, far better than option 2

I'd prefer option 3 to 1 but not nearly as much as I hate option 2

Now, the thing that seems to cause people problems with option 3 is that they say it gives away the AI /algorithm, making the AI predictable/exploitable.

The issue with that is how 'good relations' actually have an impact in that their impact is Only through AI players. It has nothing to do with the fact that they are displayed it has Everything to do with the fact that they are gameplay elements that only apply to the AIs decision making and nothing else.
 
If the diplomatic modifiers are 'There' they should NOT be hidden

They should be hidden if like the Civ4 glance screen, they show the actual number of how THEY feel about you. If it was how YOU feel about them then it isn't a problem. But as it is in Civ4 you have access to how the AI sees you, something which the AI is unable to even guess at about how YOU see them.
 
Krikkitone, you're being inconsistent. You've said previously that you don't want to be told if the AI is Furious or Friendly with you-because that prevents the AI from lying to you about how they feel towards you-yet you're claiming that diplomatic modifiers-which are much more explicit & exploitable-should be included :crazyeye::confused:. My view is that, though diplomatic actions *should* impact the mood of the AI, neither the player-nor other AI civs-should know what those modifiers are. Instead, we should be forced to rely on our FOREIGN ADVISOR to tell us how a civilization should be feeling towards us based on past behaviour &, coupled with what we know about their social settings, determine how likely we are to be able to trust them. If we *know* that they hate us-& how much-then its insanely easy to give them just the right amount of bribes to remove them as a danger, then attack them when it suits us. That is not fun.
Also, Civ3 was *not* an exploitable system. Trust me, I lost count of the number of games where *no* amount of niceness could prevent a pointless back-stab by an AI civ whenever it suited them. What I want is the diplomatic modifiers of Civ4-but hidden-& the happiness penalties that you yourself have suggested. The combination of the two should prevent the totally bizarre kinds of behaviour we saw from the AI in Civ3, whilst simultaneously removing the unfair advantage enjoyed by the human player in Civ4-& also still allowing enough wiggle room for the occasional back-stab when & where it's appropriate.

2. 'good relations' are significant but I only get vague ideas about what constitutes them (Civ3)

Sorry, but that is *not* how Civ3 operated. Civ3 used option-1, namely that good relations meant *nothing*-trust me, I played enough games to know this was true. The same was true of Civ2 as well-& it caused me no end of frustration. The thing I loved about Civ4 was that it finally made good relations meaningful. What I *hated* about it was how quickly it could be turned into an exploit. Like Infinite City Sleaze in Civ2 & Civ3, exploiting AI relations became ludicrously easy simply because you could see *exactly* how every action you took effected the AI's behaviour towards you. Play enough games, & the approach becomes downright formulaic. Now if you retain the modifiers, but make them vague & indistinct, then diplomacy still matters, but your approach to diplomacy will have to be more nuanced, rather than a by-the-numbers affair.

Aussie.
 
Now if you retain the modifiers, but make them vague & indistinct, then diplomacy still matters, but your approach to diplomacy will have to be more nuanced, rather than a by-the-numbers affair.

Aussie.

That would be horrible... it would be the Only thing in Civ to be vague and indistinct.

If Civ 3 didn't have any significant effect from diplomacy on the AI actions, then I would prefer that to having invisible effects.

Basically
Clearly visible effects> No predictable effects >>>>>>>> invisible/vague effects

Now I would prefer that those Clearly visible effects apply both to the human AND the AI because in Civ IV you have a split system

Diplomacy has
Clearly visible effects on the AI
No predictable effects on the human

That Split is also a significant problem, because it means that diplomacy plays differently in Multiplayer and single player.

Now I know an AI will never begin to reach the sophistication of a human player, but that's what cheats+difficulty levels are for... the AI and the human shouldn't play under fundamentally different rules.

So in terms of the systems of diplomacy, here is my ranking
effect of 'good relations' on restraining war, etc. on

AI player: Human player
1. Visible: Visible (both sides must roleplay)
2. None: None (ruthless AI, no roleplaying.. no real point to diplomacy)
3. Visible: None (Civ 4, humans can exploit diplomacy)
4. None: Visible (this would be interesting, but not to actually play more than once... the human is forced to roleplay, but not the AI)

I might switch 2+3 depending on my mood
But all of those would be better than anything with significant invisible factors for either side

Sorry, but that is *not* how Civ3 operated. Civ3 used option-1, namely that good relations meant *nothing*-trust me, I played enough games to know this was true.

Its been a while since I played. In any case, I would prefer that system to Invisible Modifiers.

You've said previously that you don't want to be told if the AI is Furious or Friendly with you-because that prevents the AI from lying to you about how they feel towards you-yet you're claiming that diplomatic modifiers-which are much more explicit & exploitable-should be included .
Well let me be more specific... I don't want the AI to BE Furious with me or Friendly with me.

I want the AI to be Afraid or Greedy with me (either Afraid of me or Greedy of my territory/techs, etc.)

I want the AI to be ruthless, just like I am ruthless. Admittedly I usually play games where it isn't too much of a challenge so I can role play a little. However if my 'good friend' has some juicy territory, well I decide to make us such good friends that we become one.

Either the AI should do the same thing, or I should be restrained from doing it.

My preference is that I should be restrained. That I, the American player in 2010, don't launch a full scale invasion of Japan just to get their Robotics tech because of the fact that it would Cost too much because I have good relations with Japan.
 
From the Russian Interview, it sounds like the AI will have access to "inteligence" reports.
 
1. Visible: Visible (both sides must roleplay)
2. None: None (ruthless AI, no roleplaying.. no real point to diplomacy)
3. Visible: None (Civ 4, humans can exploit diplomacy)
4. None: Visible (this would be interesting, but not to actually play more than once... the human is forced to roleplay, but not the AI)

Yuck, all of the above are totally & utterly GAMEY-which actually goes totally against the idea of good role-playing. Seriously, if you want to see how good a game can be when you *don't* know how your opponents feel about you, try joining a Diplomacy Game-although you're playing against other humans-who still want to WIN the game-you still are left with a sense that you're playing against historical nations, because they're all trying to achieve victory through rational game-play (rather than ruthless kill or be killed game-play). When you can't be 100% certain of how another player views you, then diplomacy becomes much more interesting & nuanced. It also allows for some amazing brinkmanship-which all the options you've proposed don't allow for. Indeed, every option you've presented goes from one extreme (no diplomacy) to the other (exploitable diplomacy "by-the-numbers"). If I had to rank your options in terms of awfulness, it would go 2, 4, 1 & 3-with the system in Civ4 being the *least* awful, but still not preferable.
At the end of the day, though, as we *KNOW* that they're going the route of invisible diplomatic modifiers, then it sounds like Civ5 will be an "awful" game, & that you'd probably be better off sticking with Civ4.

Aussie.
 
Yuck, all of the above are totally & utterly GAMEY-which actually goes totally against the idea of good role-playing.
you can only get role-playing through
1. an exploitable AI that doesn't play rationally against non roleplaying humans
2. a system that rewards roleplaying for 'rational' players

Seriously, if you want to see how good a game can be when you *don't* know how your opponents feel about you, try joining a Diplomacy Game-although you're playing against other humans-who still want to WIN the game-you still are left with a sense that you're playing against historical nations, because they're all trying to achieve victory through rational game-play (rather than ruthless kill or be killed game-play).

I don't know what they Believe about me (whether they believe I am a threat or not)

I Do know what they Feel about me, they feel nothing (assuming they are completely rational.. never the case with humans but...)

.
Indeed, every option you've presented goes from one extreme (no diplomacy) to the other (exploitable diplomacy "by-the-numbers").
All of those are talking about 'Feelings'
Without 'Feelings' the diplomacy is not a part of The Game.. it is purely a part of the players (and is therefore properly invisible to other players)

At the end of the day, though, as we *KNOW* that they're going the route of invisible diplomatic modifiers, then it sounds like Civ5 will be an "awful" game, & that you'd probably be better off sticking with Civ4.
We don't know if there will be 'diplomatic modifiers' (ie 'feelings') at all
A 'modifier' is something that causes the AI to Modify its calculations that you will/won't attack.



Let me restate the concepts another way.

Two ways of viewing another player

1. Threat v. Target (ruthless/rational players have this... promotes gameplay over role play)
This should be an Invisible component of AI design

2. Friendly v. Furious (roleplaying players have this... promotes roleplay over gameplay)
This should be a Visible component of Game Mechanics


#1 is for ruthless-rational gameplay, things like common religions/common governments and past actions should Not be considered... especially as past actions may be designed as a false sense of security, only the current state of the game should be considered.

Those Terms should be Invisible, because they are necessarily calculations of the player


#2 helps with roleplaying, it tells a story that involves feelings and relationships. Human players might have these feelings towards other civs/players, but those will interfere with rational gameplay, and the AI has no way of judging a human players emotional feelings. If the AI is forced to have these feelings, it will interfere with their rational playing.

To have ANY role playing, you want #2, but you can't 'assign' a human player emotions directly into their brain.

What you Can do, to promote roleplaying among rational gamers is to give them a game reward for roleplaying properly.

So the game assigns Friendly/Furious to a certain relationship based on game actions, and players are rewarded for properly roleplaying.




So to sum up

Rational/ruthless elements of AI behavior should be hidden.

Roleplaying elements should be a Visible part of the game applying to human and AI alike.... or they shouldn't exist at all. (civ 5 seems like it might be going with that second path)
 
What complete & utter twaddle Krikkitone. Your little rant merely highlights that you've never played a diplomacy game in your life. The players in these games are no more *ruthless* than leaders in THE REAL WORLD. Although everyone wants to win, that's secondary to the story-telling/role-playing aspects of the game. Indeed, failure to adequately role-play leads to severe penalties towards final points-so ruthless behaviour is actively discouraged.
What you've presented as options are really quite dull & formulaic-great for maths nerds who want to min/max their way to victory, but not of much use for people who want a genuinely enjoyable gaming experience, against a opponent who feels *REAL*. The game designers have iterated-on more than one occasion-that the AI in Civ5 will have the diplomatic modifiers hidden, which removes the by-the-numbers exploitation that visible modifiers provide (no matter how much you try & claim the contrary). They've also indicated that the AI can flat-out LIE to you about the way it feels towards you-a fairly pointless activity if you *KNOW* how the AI feels about you, based on visible diplomatic modifiers. Therefore, by all accounts, Civ5 is sounding like its completely *not* your game. Seriously, if people like you & Ahriman can't win the game without resorting to exploiting the weaknesses in the AI, then that's a pretty sad indictment of your abilities if you ask me!
 
Oh & if you want a STORY, then you shouldn't need a +2 "we like that we share civics" to get it. Instead I want to go to my FOREIGN ADVISOR & have them tell me (Well, we're both liberal Democracies, so there is little gain in them attacking us). If I want to know if I can trust an AI civ, then I'll look to their past behaviour-towards me & other civilizations; I'll look at their current civics choices (anyone in a Police State is either in a war or likely gearing up for one, so I'm unlikely to trust them no matter *what* they tell me to my face); I'll look at what I've done for them in the past, & use that as a GUIDE to how likely they are to treat me well. Having exact numbers for various diplomatic actions, completely visible to the player, is somewhat like having a GPS in an Orienteering Match-i.e. a grossly UNFAIR ADVANTAGE or-to use a better term-a CRUTCH!!
 
Oh & if you want a STORY, then you shouldn't need a +2 "we like that we share civics" to get it. Instead I want to go to my FOREIGN ADVISOR & have them tell me
I would like to see during the negotiation screen (not have to leave the negotiation to open the foreign advisor) a "+ for we like that we share civics". Note the + and the lack of numbers. This way I know the reasons why they (say they) like me without having to prepare the interview beforehand and note all that data on a sheet of paper. I might not know all the reasons, but I want those that are known/obvious to appear in the negotiation screen so I can use that information when making diplomatic decisions. It needn't be accurate or figures, but whatever information I have must be available during the parley.
 
Well, although it should be obvious what increases & decreases diplomatic standings, I certainly wouldn't have a problem with that amount of info being released. Having an *exact* number, though, is really just gamey!

Aussie.
 
Indeed, failure to adequately role-play leads to severe penalties towards final points-so ruthless behaviour is actively discouraged.

Ruthless behavior is not discouraged it just changes its appearance, a player that is trying to win a game that rewards roleplaying will ruthlessly engage in roleplay like behavior.

That is Exactly what I am proposing. Roleplaying gives You, the human player, Game Benefits/Penalties, instead of merely being something the AI is programmed to do.



The game designers have iterated-on more than one occasion-that the AI in Civ5 will have the diplomatic modifiers hidden, which removes the by-the-numbers exploitation that visible modifiers provide (no matter how much you try & claim the contrary).

Visible Diplomatic modifiers are not what causes exploitation.

AI-only Diplomatic modifiers is what causes exploitation.
Visible v. Invisible just makes the exploitation less or more frustrating.

They've also indicated that the AI can flat-out LIE to you about the way it feels towards you-a fairly pointless activity if you *KNOW* how the AI feels about you, based on visible diplomatic modifiers. Therefore, by all accounts, Civ5 is sounding like its completely *not* your game. Seriously, if people like you & Ahriman can't win the game without resorting to exploiting the weaknesses in the AI, then that's a pretty sad indictment of your abilities if you ask me!

If we are going to the ad hominems, You are the one exploiting the weakneses of the AI, you just don't want to know how you are doing it.

If the AI "Feels" good about you (whether you know it or not) and directly for that reason does not attack you, you have exploited the AI.

AIs that "Feel" a certain way about you are 'Human cheats' on the order of AIs that know the map. (Humans can attack someone they are friendly with, AIs cannot)

If, on the other hand, a Civilization (not the AI or human player) "Feels" a certain way and that "Feeling" will cause consequences for diplomatic activity then it is not an exploitation. Because the player (AI or Human) is making a decision based on the Gameplay consequences.


So 'diplomacy modifiers' should be Parts of Gameplay (so as to promote roleplaying by humans), not of the AI, and they should be Visible.

The AIs 'diplomatic sub ai' on the otherhand is Not part of gameplay (unless we want diplomacy on an autogovernor), so it should be invisible. It should also be totally ruthless... willing to surprise nuke a 3000 year ally if the reward is sufficient for the cost.
 
I kind of liked the civ3 system. Iirc, it only told the feelings towards me. To make it more fair I wouldn't mind assigning my feelings toward each AI-civ when meeting them. It would be nice to see their feelings towards each other as well.
 
I think that it only seems like the human can exploit diplomacy because there is no effective policing of trustworthiness among the AI.

As it is right now, the AI doesn't prompt the human player for an evaluation of the human player's attitude towards that AI, although it conceivably could...an AI could pop up at the beginning of the turn (maybe every 10 turns)* and ask, "How do you feel towards me?" or "How are we getting along?" and the human player could select "friendly," "pleased," etc., and then that information would be circulated around to all of the AI in contact with that AI (just as the AI-AI relation information is circulated with the human player, and the human player could be held to that pledge. So, if you want to cultivate some better relations with a civ, you can profess your friendliness to them and maybe get a +1 or +2, but then if you close borders within, let's say, 10 turns you get a -2 with that civ for turning your back on them, AS WELL AS a -1 with all of the other civs, regardless of whether they care about that AI or not, just because you proved yourself untrustworthy. And god forbid if you declare war on this civ to whom you have recently professed your friendliness, then maybe you get like a -4 for backstabbing them, IN ADDITION to the usual -2 that you'd get for declaring war on them regardless of past relations (like, if you had said you were furious with them, then they'd be pissed that you declared war, but hardly surprised or feeling cheated), and IN ADDITION you'd get a -2 with all other civs for demonstrating untrustworthiness, even with civs who hate the AI that you declared war on, just because it shows that you can't be trusted. And all this would also be IN ADDITION to the -1 from civs allied with that civ for "You declared war on our friend!"

*Or probably a better method would be to simply have it start out as "cautious" as a default, and then it would be up to the human's prerogative to change it from them onward. I would say that it should take like 10 turns for the AIs to start judging you by your new rating of them, so that you couldn't just drop them from friendly to furious and declare war instantly without penalty. And if we were really smart with programming the AI, we would get the AI to react to these drops in rating by beefing up their defenses towards you.

There's nothing inherently asymmetrical about human vs. AI diplomacy. It's just that the AI currently doesn't ask our opinion and hold us to our word.

Now, currently the AI doesn't do any moral policing within its own ranks because it is unecessary. It is a bit like that movie, "The Invention of Lying" with Ricky Gervais. In a world where everyone tells the truth (the world of Civ4 AI-AI diplomacy), you don't have to worry about punishing liars or backstabbers. But I would, in fact, like to see the AI declare on me while at friendly OCCASIONALLY, and only when it has a great deal to gain (such as at the end of the game, or if I'm just a sitting duck with warriors in all of my cities). But NOT within the current Civ4 system, because there aren't any counterbalancing moral policing mechanisms to keep this from being exploited. You'd need to have the other AI take note of that AI's transgression ("-2 you are untrustworthy.") just like the human does, and the AI would have to have a way to factor in the importance of the diplo hits from the other AI relative to the importance of the goal (declaring war). Not a trivial task, of course.

In any case, the tendency to engage in this sort of backstab could of course depend on the leader, and either you could game the system by peeking in the XML files and seeing that Ghandi has a 0.1% chance of backstabbing at friendly, or you could not peek, or you could peek, but randomize personalities each game to keep you on your toes concerning who the untrustworthy ones in that game will be (because the AI doesn't know how untrustworthy you are...although conceivably we could have the game keep a running log of the human player's transgressions across games, and so if you are a prolific backstabber in previous games, when starting out with a new game you have an automatic -2 with all leaders due to "You have backstabbed in previous games!" Just like we get used to Catherine backstabbing. Unless you had "randomized personalities" selected, in which case the AI would disregard your trans-game log of backstabbings, just as you are ignorant of theirs for that game.

So that's that for human-AI diplomatic asymmetricality. It's not inherent. Theoretically it could be overcome. But it would take some complicated game-theory programming of the Civ4 AI, which, with its thick branching of possibilities, is a lot more difficult than the standard optimization routines and RNG generations it runs.

Now, as for having diplomacy not be so finely quantized, that's another question (and let's keep these two questions separate—human-AI diplomatic asymmetricality and diplomatic quantization).

The reality is, whether we display the information on the screen, the AI will be dealing in integer numbers at some level (as are humans at some fundamental level, quite possibly, although our routines are probably so complicated and poorly understood that it merely has the appearance of qualitative emotions, when in fact it might boil down to a certain quantity of circuits firing or a certain quantity of a certain neurotransmitter being released. And although it might seem ridiculous to reduce issues in the real world like "shared religion" and "mutual war" to some common currency, such that you could say that, for example, 2 shared wars = the effect of shared religion for diplomacy, perhaps that is just because our understanding of the real world is incomplete).

Now, the question of how humans make decisions in the context of incomplete information is fascinating. Is it deterministic at the deepest level, with incomplete judgment criteria being filled in by some quantum-scale random number generator type of stuff in the brain? Or do we really have something called "free will"? In any case, the AI needs an integer and/or an RNG in order to decide. Increasing the scope of the RNG (such as giving the RNG a small chance at getting the AI to declare at friendly) can make the AI's behavior seem less deterministic (and thus more humanlike), but also more arbitrary (and thus less humanlike) if taken to the extreme (which is perhaps evidence to support the idea that it is NOT just some quantum-RNG that fills in the gaps in the human brain).

In any case, there are going to be integers at work, whether we show them or not.

Now, if people really want to know what's going on, if you hide these integers from them, then they will surely figure out a round-about, (and more laborious and frustrating) way to procure these values. They could peek in the code and see, "Aha! Whenever you share a religion with Isabella for long enough, you get a +8!" or they could run trial-and-error tests of seeing, "Okay, with this particular combination of historical factors, that results in pleased when dealing with Darius, but with these other combinations it doesn't, so my best guess is that shared religion with him counts for four times as much as open borders." This is what we had to do back when I used to play Alpha Centauri. And it was not fun. It was downright maddening to not have any clue why Yang just dropped from "obstinate" to "belligerent," and we'd spend hours poring over the clues as if we were doing some tarot-card-reading exercise or something. (And at least Alpha Centauri did have a system of moral policing, such that your reputation suffered if you backstabbed or committed atrocities. I always loved being at "Reputation: wicked. Might: unsurpassed"...to be hated, but feared...ahhhhhhh!)

Consider also that Civ4 values are abstractions (such as grassland mines producing "3 hammers") used to make the game manageable. If we were actually trying to rule the world on our own, it would be more than a full-time job. It would involve hours of intimate conversation with foreign leaders so that we could gauge their feelings towards us. It would involve reading numerous assessment reports and whatnot. Reading numerous news stories. I do think that, through the course of these activities, one could begin to be able to make fine distinctions between a "friendly" ally who is just barely friendly, but who, if you refuse this one demand, will be knocked down to "pleased" and may not allow you to use its military bases for your upcoming invasion (such as Turkey vis-a-vis the U.S. before the Iraq War), and the "friendly" ally who is a few points higher, and whom you can occasionally :):):):):)-slap without worrying about jeopardizing the relationship (Britain vis-a-vis the U.S.) I don't think it would be very difficult at all to assign "civ diplo values" to these civs at all. I'd put Turkey at +7 and Britain at +13. There, easy. Done.

Now, am I saying that I know their relationship with the U.S. well enough to gauge whether they would ever go to war with the U.S. in the near future? Well, in the case of Britain, I'd say, yeah, I really don't think there's any uncertainty at all. It is inconceivable that Britain would declare on the U.S. at this point. But Turkey? Well, I think Turkey might declare at pleased...in any case, I see no incongruence between the uncertainty that is still inherent in the civ integer abstractions of diplomacy (which includes the uncertainty, most often, of whether the civ will declare on you) and the uncertainty that is inherent in real world diplomacy.

Now, if we could just fix that human-AI asymmetry...

Edit:

Actually, thinking back on Alpha Centauri brings to my mind another problem with Civ4 diplomacy—it is not reciprocal in the same way that Alpha Centauri diplomacy was. In SMAC, you shared whatever diplo status you had with the AI (vendetta, truce, treaty, pact). It was an agreement that the other AI could hold you to. In Civ4, the dipo status aren't reciprocal, even among AI. One AI can be annoyed with another, and that other AI can only be at cautious with that first AI, and so on. The only continuous, reciprocal agreements that you make with AI are open borders, defensive pacts, and permanent alliances (and let's disregard PA's because those effectively end diplomatic considerations between the civs involved). And the Civ4 AI currently don't hold you to those agreements and rate down your reputation IN GENERAL when you violate them in a spectacular way (they rate you down if they or their friends are involved, but not also out of principle, whereas in SMAC that's exactly how the reputation component worked. In SMAC, in order to avoid a hit to your reputation (and thus more difficult future relations with all of the AI), you were SUPPOSED to let the truce expire (and never have signed a treaty or pact in the first place) and then attack. But nobody ever did that because the penalties for having a bad reputation still weren't harsh enough to make up for the fact that you just doubled the size of your faction).

Anyways, we don't even need any new human rating system of the AI in order to make it reciprocal. We just need for the existing continuous agreements to count for something. In other words, let's say for 10 turns after having cancelled open borders, you still have a "truce" with an AI that allows you to declare on them, but at the cost of appearing untrustworthy to the rest of the AI. And let's say for 10 turns after having cancelled a defensive pact (whether of your own accord or not), there also exists a grace period where attacks are allowed, but even more harshly judged. Now we just need to make open borders and defensive pacts count for more integer points, and other things for fewer integer points in order to rule out situations where a civ is friendly with you even though you've never opened borders with them, or maybe just have a stipulation that having open borders is a necessary, but not sufficient condition for being at friendly with a civ, and voila! The asymmetry problem more or less solved.
 
Now, if we could just fix that human-AI asymmetry...

That is best done by having your civ itself be the 'policing mechanism' instead of AI having to go around trying to remember trustworthiness from game to game... when we can just wipe their memories anyways.

If your civ is the 'policing mechanism' of feelings it can also be the 'determiner' of feelings. As long as players can do things to alter the feelings.

If your civ polices your backstabbing, then you don't have to worry about having to design a system where AIs have a chance of backstabbing... they will backstab whenever the benefits outweigh the costs (population unhappiness) in their estimation.
 
Wow Zeiter, nice essay.

I had no idea it was even possible to say that much about the topic. :P
 
That is best done by having your civ itself be the 'policing mechanism' instead of AI having to go around trying to remember trustworthiness from game to game... when we can just wipe their memories anyways.

If your civ is the 'policing mechanism' of feelings it can also be the 'determiner' of feelings. As long as players can do things to alter the feelings.

If your civ polices your backstabbing, then you don't have to worry about having to design a system where AIs have a chance of backstabbing... they will backstab whenever the benefits outweigh the costs (population unhappiness) in their estimation.

Ah, good idea. So, if you declare war on a civ with whom you recently shared open borders or especially a defensive pact, then your citizens get really angry (just like with wars between religious brethren) and hamper your production? Great idea! But you'd need to make the effect to work in a big enough way to be a reasonable deterrent. Happiness is, in my opinion, a rather soft way of implementing this. There are MANY ways into getting more happiness, especially in the later game. It would have to be more than just the couple or so extra unhappy faces you currently get for wars between religious brethren. Maybe like +5 unhappiness. The same for defying the AP or UN. That usually stings a bit.

But the important point is that it has to be based off of having had continuous reciprocal agreements. It cannot be based off of asymmetric attitudes, because that system can be gamed in the following way:

You could, for example, be in a situation where you really hate a civ and want to wipe them out, but since you happen to share a religion, let's say, that other civ just adores you like a little annoying puppydog. In this case, it's not really your fault that you can't declare war on this civ without getting penalized. It's not like you ever signed some reciprocal agreement of friendship with this civ. This would just be an extreme case of, for example, one AI being furious with the other, but the latter being friendly with the former. Not likely, but theoretically possible.

This also suggests ways that you could game the system. If a civ annoyingly liked you too much and was foiling your plans for invading them without hassle from your own citizens, you could keep on making arrogant demands until you got enough diplo hits to drop that civ down to cautious.

This is why being judged on SMAC-style continuous reciprocal agreements (such as open borders) is essential, in my opinion. And aside from the tiny penalty for war between religious brethren currently (which involves the sorta-reciprocal agreement to "run the same state religion,") there isn't really any of that in the civ4 diplomacy system. There is nothing, notably, pertaining to open borders or defensive pacts.
 
Ah, good idea. So, if you declare war on a civ with whom you recently shared open borders or especially a defensive pact, then your citizens get really angry (just like with wars between religious brethren) and hamper your production? Great idea! But you'd need to make the effect to work in a big enough way to be a reasonable deterrent. Happiness is, in my opinion, a rather soft way of implementing this. There are MANY ways into getting more happiness, especially in the later game. It would have to be more than just the couple or so extra unhappy faces you currently get for wars between religious brethren. Maybe like +5 unhappiness. The same for defying the AP or UN. That usually stings a bit.

Well we don't know how happiness works in Civ 5... I Really hope it isn't a simple pop cap, but I agree that the it can be made significant through balancing the effect

But the important point is that it has to be based off of having had continuous reciprocal agreements. It cannot be based off of asymmetric attitudes, because that system can be gamed in the following way:

You could, for example, be in a situation where you really hate a civ and want to wipe them out, but since you happen to share a religion, let's say, that other civ just adores you like a little annoying puppydog. In this case, it's not really your fault that you can't declare war on this civ without getting penalized. It's not like you ever signed some reciprocal agreement of friendship with this civ. This would just be an extreme case of, for example, one AI being furious with the other, but the latter being friendly with the former. Not likely, but theoretically possible.

This also suggests ways that you could game the system. If a civ annoyingly liked you too much and was foiling your plans for invading them without hassle from your own citizens, you could keep on making arrogant demands until you got enough diplo hits to drop that civ down to cautious.

Exactly, but if they granted your demands then they would

So if someone likes you so much (common social setting or something) and they want to be your little puppy dog, make them your #%&^.

This way they either have to give into the demands (which would Raise the level of the relationship)
OR
They decide to stand up for themselves deny your requests, let the relationship drop and prepare for war.

In all of these cases you would still be able to declare war on whoever you wanted, it would just take preparation time... and it would have some cost involved... whenever someone gave me something it would make it harder to go to war with them... So if I Want to go to war, I can't accept gifts from my target.

Basically having it based off of diplomatic actions as well (successful trades, denied trades, etc.) instead of just continuous agreements allows some additional manipulation.
 
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