Gatling Gun - Only attack adjacent units.

[Louis XXIV]

I think those people are wrong. A crossbow will start doing damage in the single digits. The upgrades are clearly superior.

 

[Matthew.]

I think the point is that a 3-range unit can brute force its way through enemy defenses, while units like melee are forced to adhere to city combat strength, focus on upgrades, etc.

8 3-range crossbows doing 5 damage each is still 40 damage a turn. More than enough to eventually drop a city.

A long sword in Industrial would get one-shot killed, or close to it, even with stacked promos.

 

[headcase]

I have trouble using 1-range gatling guns, but 2-range guns are just fine.

 

[MattZed]

Hell pull them back and garrison instead of disband unless you opened liberty and then throw them out there to die for your artillery

Meatshields cost maintenance. I do open Liberty or Piety almost exclusively, but even with Tradition I'd rather slowly phase them out to have Artillery in the garrisons.

Even the experienced ones? I myself I am not a fan of Gatlings and 220 gold upgrade cost, but I would not disband a well promoted XB. They will deal damage comparable to arty to units and with range they are arty, just with LOS issues

They lose their effectiveness vs cities but to rifles they are deadly, and even GWI without cover don't last too long. Especially against a mix of three range XB and some two range Gatlings.

When you have tradition as was the case in GK almost always and still in most games, then parking them in cities, thus saving maintenance is the way to go. They become deadly again as MGs, and if I fought early, and was doing Dom VC, then I usually have honor and cheaper upgrades and a two tap, range, march, double cover MGs are a terror. And they all have those promos.

Well, it depends what we mean by experienced. A range-upgraded XB, yeah, save that, but XBs are usually pre-armory units, while Artillery have the Military Academy tech as a prereq. Unless I had a major Medieval/Renaissance war, well upgraded XBs simply aren't out there.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I think the point is that a 3-range unit can brute force its way through enemy defenses, while units like melee are forced to adhere to city combat strength, focus on upgrades, etc.

8 3-range crossbows doing 5 damage each is still 40 damage a turn. More than enough to eventually drop a city.

A long sword in Industrial would get one-shot killed, or close to it, even with stacked promos.

How often do you think average players have that many 3 ranged XBows that are needed to make this strategy viable?

 

[bcaiko]

I might keep 3 range Crossbowmen around for a while, but at some point they lose value. So, yes, eventually they will be upgraded to Gatlings.

 

[Gyra Solune]

Part of me feels like archery units would be much more balanced if they only had 1 range from the get-go, and not just upon becoming Gatlings. Siege units should still have the higher range, since they're designed to hurtle things far and fast, but the prospect of shooting arrows far enough to where they could potentially fly over two entire cities seems a little silly to me.

 

[Quineloe]

How often do you think average players have that many 3 ranged XBows that are needed to make this strategy viable?

with standard rules that seems to be an absurd amount of experience to get, even with Honor. I've never had more than three ranged units with +range from experience.

However, this applies to England by default.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I might keep 3 range Crossbowmen around for a while, but at some point they lose value. So, yes, eventually they will be upgraded to Gatlings.

Yeah, but the question is how many can you reasonably be expected to have? The post I quoted talked about a whopping 8, which was enough to make his strategy viable. It's not because it's very hard to get 8 3 range Xbows. Also, you try placing all 8 in useful formations in convoluted terrain and tell me how well that works out.

with standard rules that seems to be an absurd amount of experience to get, even with Honor. I've never had more than three ranged units with +range from experience.

However, this applies to England by default.

Yeah, England is the exception though you still aren't likely to have 8 units with the extra extra range.

 

[Matthew.]

How often do you think average players have that many 3 ranged XBows that are needed to make this strategy viable?

I was responding to Louis, who made the comment that once their damage gets into the single digits, they are no longer useful. However the way 3-range promos change combat, they are still useful. May take a few more turns than normal, but they can sit outside of city range and fire all day long.

As to your question, it really isn't that bad. Yeah, if you keep a few CB's sitting around your base and much later you decide to throw them against Industrial-era cities, of course it won't work.

If you are aggressive and start farming exp from the start, getting 6+ highly promoted archer units isn't difficult at all. You have more time than getting galleass promoted before Frigates, and you can't tell me you've never played an England game with that intent. You are missing out if you haven't--start farming exp on a CS while you finish Education and Iron Working, tech to SoTL, mass upgrade, and clear the map. Last game I played like that I was conquering on average 1 city every two turns. Absolutely insane.

 

[IBYCFOTA]

A two range Gatling is great, an obsolete range XB beats regular Gatling any day. I use XB until GWI and city strength 65. Nothing stops them. Of course they are all log and range and until arty and flight nothing touches them. Then they might be Gatlings for few turns and off to MGs. I hate Gatlings, no staying power

Gatling guns are very underrated. They deal a ton of damage when they are first built (and since they are ranged don't recieve any back after attacking) and have a very, very high defense. You can't exploit range in the same way you can with XBs but the only way to make up for the lack of damage is with sheer numbers. I'd take 3 GG's over 3 XBs any day for offense or defense.

 

[Anarchist]

They lose their effectiveness vs cities but to rifles they are deadly, and even GWI without cover don't last too long. Especially against a mix of three range XB and some two range Gatlings.

When you have tradition as was the case in GK almost always and still in most games, then parking them in cities, thus saving maintenance is the way to go. They become deadly again as MGs, and if I fought early, and was doing Dom VC, then I usually have honor and cheaper upgrades and a two tap, range, march, double cover MGs are a terror. And they all have those promos.

The 1 tile range is still useful even in "melee" combat with another land unit.

The land unit, like a rifleman or musketman, has to attack and take defense damage. Then your gatling gun attacks back but receives no damage back.

Hell pull them back and garrison instead of disband unless you opened liberty and then throw them out there to die for your artillery

All these are reasons to keep them.

I just started a new game with old blighty to see if the longbows were really as awesome as I thought. Oh yes! I was eager for a test, and trying decide who to give a DoW when Assyria started at me, siege towers and all. He did not stand a chance.

My only problem is the line of sight as my start position is full of forests (and I mean full). I did not think it through, and the LB are a bit useless until they get out in the open or on a hill, but there are very few hills around me (that is why I kept the forests). On a hill they are fine, and four of them decimate any unit easily.

A quick new start for me and I'll pick somewhere with either hills or less cover to try these out for real sad: because I had marble => Stonehenge => a good religion going). I don't think anyone can stop these marching steadily forward, firing each turn, with melee protection in front. It's almost like mobile rocket launchers in the medieval era!

 

[Louis XXIV]

I was responding to Louis, who made the comment that once their damage gets into the single digits, they are no longer useful. However the way 3-range promos change combat, they are still useful. May take a few more turns than normal, but they can sit outside of city range and fire all day long.

While a fair point, you know what works even better for this? Just getting Artillery?

 

[Zezima]

IMO, upgrading promoted crossbows to gats is just as necessary as upgrading promoted CBs to crossbows. The gold cost is negligible. 1000 gold is usually enough to handle my promoted squads, and it's the best thing to save money for (after rush buying science buildings, of course).

Do you guys not beeline gats or something? They wreck cities harder than rushed crossbows do, typically, since Renaissance is when you usually start passing AIs in tech. Those low-strength satellite cities go down in just several shots.

Maybe my experiences are just different because my tech path in the Renaissance in 90% of my games is the same (straight to Scientific Theory, with gatlings not far off).

Yeah, they might get hit by city or CB fire, but usually it's not a problem when you have 4-5 laying down fire. If my crossbow has range, I never hesitate to upgrade to gat once I have the funds. The gap in strength is just massive.

They weren't nerfed in BNW and I didn't notice or something, were they?

 

[Gucumatz]

Yea in many situations crossbows are still better than gatling guns due to the extra range for a while. Once units get too strong then you have to upgrade or disband though

 

[redwings1340]

I generally keep my crossbowmen until the enemy gets infantry and gattling guns of their own. If I'm ahead in tech, I will keep them around for a while, as the range bonus will allow me to keep them alive longer, but as soon as they start dying in one or two shots to enemy units, I upgrade them.

 

[spfun]

Gatlings range decrease really kills off that whole line imo, i tend to either disband or just leave them in a city with oligarchy as XBows. I only upgrade if some AI DoWs me and i need a quick defensive upgrade.

 

[Matthew.]

While a fair point, you know what works even better for this? Just getting Artillery?

Hey, just answering the OP. If you have 3-range Xbows, there are situations where you may not want to upgrade them, such as wanting to snipe a runaway city with insane city defense. The scenario comes up occasionally.

For me personally, I don't mind upgrading into Gatling. For a long while now I've been running with double cover melee units, since for whatever reason the AI would rather do reduced damage against a Cover II fortified rifle than do massive damage to whatever else I have standing around.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I was responding to Louis, who made the comment that once their damage gets into the single digits, they are no longer useful. However the way 3-range promos change combat, they are still useful. May take a few more turns than normal, but they can sit outside of city range and fire all day long.

As to your question, it really isn't that bad. Yeah, if you keep a few CB's sitting around your base and much later you decide to throw them against Industrial-era cities, of course it won't work.

If you are aggressive and start farming exp from the start, getting 6+ highly promoted archer units isn't difficult at all. You have more time than getting galleass promoted before Frigates, and you can't tell me you've never played an England game with that intent. You are missing out if you haven't--start farming exp on a CS while you finish Education and Iron Working, tech to SoTL, mass upgrade, and clear the map. Last game I played like that I was conquering on average 1 city every two turns. Absolutely insane.

Hmm well I don't farm; maybe I should.

Still, even with a bunch of upgraded XBows on hand, if we put your anecdote aside, you still have the problem of not being able to place enough of them in range, clear of obstacles, to make up the difference between what your 6 or 8 XBows could do relative to 2 or 3 gatling guns.

Like others have said, gatlings can take a hit to the face better than an XBow and deal so much more damage.

Hehehe I remember once putting a gat on a hill outside of Tokyo and watching Oda send a stream of Samurai at it, all to be mowed down just like in The Last Samurai.

Couldn't do that with an XBow, not even 2 or 3 XBows with upgrades.