Gator02 - Learning to Walk

[leif erikson]

Do we need to take a Confucian Missionary with us or can he come later?

On tech, Theology next followed by Feudalism on the road to Gunpowder and Chemistry?

 

[JackRules]

delurk:

Just wanted to thank you guys for an extremely informative game. I'm still struggling on Noble and my biggest problem is setting a long-term goal early on and then finding a way to get it done. This game illustrates the need to commit to a course of action well in advance of implementation in order to assure success. Obviously any one of you could take this starting position and win from it (something I would not be assured of doing), but how each of you would win (date and victory condition) might be quite different, and what constitutes a win for Brad may be quite different from what constitutes a win for Bez. I do agree with Bez that the aim should be to enjoy the game, and I have enjoyed your interactions and strategy discussions. I hope ALL of you will see this one to it's conclusion, and then give us another game with different goals and strats. Thanks for educating and entertaining.

undelurk:

 

[bradleyfeanor]

Re: The Military Assault
I am guessing that we will be attacking some unknown city SE of Niani and then working our way westward across the continent. Your southern reconnaissance caravel may uncover some useful info though and change that. If we spot a wonder city or his capitol for instance, we might want to begin the assault there. If we do locate a strong city like that, then you probably will not want to ship out until you have all the boats full of military. But if reconnaissance only reveals weak cities near the coast, you may want to consider attacking with three loaded boats and let the fourth come later. One other important thing to watch for is a connected horse resource or horse archers: I try to always have a few spears/pikes around if the enemy has mounts, but if you feel reasonably sure he doesn’t have mounts then we shouldn’t waste time building them.

If you ship out with a 3-boat task force, I would take something like the following:

5 macemen (2 should be defensive/open field offensive with Shock promotion, the others CR II) We do also have 1 axman with a promotion available. I would grab CR I, upgrade him and take him along as well.
3 cats (2 with CR I, Accuracy, 1 with Barrage, Accuracy)
1 spear, Medic

If you are able to fill the other boat, I would add the following units:
1 horse archer or explorer: Combat I, Medic
Another Spear, but with Combat II (take Formation when promoted)
Another CRII maceman.

I think the missionary(s) can wait until the second wave or maybe hop on a returning caravel.

The only time I ever build crossbows or longbowmen with an aggressive civ is if I am making use of military police. Their utility is just too limited, so I don’t think I would build any yet. I also build very few mounted units.

I usually put different promotions on my catapults that follow the initial wave. Although I like to have three accuracy units with every attack stack, it is also nice to have 1-2 CR II cats and 1-2 barrage II cats. The CR II cats are great because it is easier to get promotions with them: I often have a few of these by the late game that are CR III, Barrage II, and those are very fun to use. The Cats that start with Barrage II I use for “suicide” units against a really tough city. In fact, if you do spot a tough city for our initial strike target, you might want to take one of these barrage cats instead of one of the macemen.

I know some of our troops will not have all the promotions I listed above because they were built pre-Theocracy, but I still listed the needed promotions because they should get them after the very first attack.

Re: Research
I would grab Engineering before Feudalism. The extra road movement is nice, plus we will probably want to let Tiwanaku build the Hagia Sophia when we don’t need him churning out military for a while. More importantly, there is still a fair possibility that we might meet an AI that has Feudalism and be able to trade for it.

Re: Civics
I am thinking maybe we should go ahead and stay in slavery when we revolt to Theocracy. If we do, then Cuzco and Tiwan might be able to utilize one whip in order to hurry along Markets. Also, Olly and Huaman can probably benefit from the whip for some time to come.

If you decide to go ahead and take Caste that is fine too: the instant border pops and higher research rate will be nice. But I think switching to Caste when we adopt Police State might be a slightly better choice than switching now.

Re: Great People
I would start running an Engineer in Tiwanaku after it grows. It is a bit late in the game to get any great techs for an Engineer, but perhaps we will be able to use him to help build the Hagia Sophia or Versailles. Although I guess we could use him for Steel if you guys want to obliterate things with cannons.

 

[leif erikson]

Just doing some back of the envelope planning.

There will be no Spears or Horse Archers as we do not have any of the required techs. Spears require Hunting and Copper or Iron while Horse Archers require Archery and Horseback Riding.

I intend to put the Harbors into the back of the build queue in order to get units out.

We have 2 Axe's and neither has a promotion available. We do have a Mace in Machu that is awaiting a promo though (he is 4/2 and he has Combat 1).

As I look at things, I am planning to continue to recon the Malinese shore looking for a place to land and to see if I can see any combat units. I am thinking of beginning to work the Caravel north of Mali towards home. The Galleons, I think, can start to assemble near Tiwanaku for loading.

I hope to get those loaded and ready because I don't think I will be invading during my set. But I am going to try very hard to have it ready to sail or enroute.

 

[bradleyfeanor]

There will be no Spears or Horse Archers as we do not have any of the required techs. Spears require Hunting and Copper or Iron while Horse Archers require Archery and Horseback Riding.

Well now, I guess we don't at that. It isn't a very big deal though. I doubt we will really need them.

Are you sure there isn't an Ax in Cori or next to it that is waiting for a promotion?

Everything else sounds good!

 

[Bezhukov]

"The Cats that start with Barrage II I use for “suicide” units against a really tough city."

I'm curious, Brad. Have you done the math on whether CRII or Barrage II cats do more actual damage? Is collateral damage a function of relative strength like regular damage?

Are you banking on the AI researching drama for you to get the culture slider? It's not a high priority for them, and should be relatively cheap to research. It would also let you whip theaters (2 pop max cost) to get border pops in slavery.

 

[Bezhukov]

Thanks to all for the kind comments. I (obviously) don't entirely agree about the necessity of a long-term goal. That can be fun for variants, but in general I like to develop a strong position, then take best advantage of the victory conditions it presents.

 

[leif erikson]

Are you sure there isn't an Ax in Cori or next to it that is waiting for a promotion?

Ooops! Yes, there is. I used the military advisor to survey them and saw 5/5 and 2 promotions. Thought someone had already promoted him, but he is awaiting promotion.

I think I might load them unpromoted and we can do as you suggested earlier and wait to taylor them as we need them once we get there. My quick and dirty analysis shows me I'll be really quite lucky to have them loaded and ready to go, but one never knows.

I'm planning to start in an hour or so. So if anyone has anything to say, please don't hesitate!

 

[bradleyfeanor]

"The Cats that start with Barrage II I use for “suicide” units against a really tough city."

I'm curious, Brad. Have you done the math on whether CRII or Barrage II cats do more actual damage? Is collateral damage a function of relative strength like regular damage?

Are you banking on the AI researching drama for you to get the culture slider? It's not a high priority for them, and should be relatively cheap to research. It would also let you whip theaters (2 pop max cost) to get border pops in slavery.

I haven't done a formal test on the damage increase due to Barrage. I have been using it only because it has "seemed" to do more damage than the regular cats. Shame on me: that is a terrible reason to do anything!

You are right, we may have to research drama ourselves when war weariness arrives. But I would like to wait as long as we can just in case we don't need it. If we grab a couple of happiness resources right off the bat then we can do without the theatres, and I would rather use missionaries to expand borders pre Caste System.

But there is no telling what the future holds. I have not had any significant war weariness since my first game of cIV: maybe I am due, in which case your theaters will definitely be built.

 

[Bezhukov]

"in which case your theaters will definitely be built."

I have an unnatural attachment to them because they came from the Civ III mod RandR - the builder's paradise.

 

[leif erikson]

I am in game and have our first small glitch. Our Galley builds did not change to Galleons. Looks like I will have to build them and upgrade them, unless there is another way?

 

[bradleyfeanor]

I am in game and have our first small glitch. Our Galley builds did not change to Galleons. Looks like I will have to build them and upgrade them, unless there is another way?

This has me really confused. I am almost positive that I have done this before...maybe this is something that changed in the 1.52 patch?

Do you currently have the option to build galleys and galleons or only the latter? The only reason I ask is because, IIRC, you lose the option to build galleys once you get Astronomy, and galleys should change into galleons at the same time.

Is this the turn on which you got Astronomy or is it the turn after? I can't remember if the builds switch on the turn of or the turn after...

 

[leif erikson]

This has me really confused. I am almost positive that I have done this before...maybe this is something that changed in the 1.52 patch?

Do you currently have the option to build galleys and galleons or only the latter? The only reason I ask is because, IIRC, you lose the option to build galleys once you get Astronomy, and galleys should change into galleons at the same time.

Is this the turn on which you got Astronomy or is it the turn after? I can't remember if the builds switch on the turn of or the turn after...

I just rechecked the 800 AD save and we have the option of still building Galleys! I had to turn research down a bit to make enough Gold to upgrade the Galleys.

I also made some trades, I hope they were OK? And I gave tribute to Napolean, but not to Montie. I found him and he isn't too happy with us.

I have completed the set and here is the log:

Turn 140 – 600 AD
Change build in Tiwanaku from Harbor to Barracks – due in 2 turns.
Hmmm, Ollie and Huamanga will need Barracks too!
Set research slider to 70% to gain some gold for upgrading an Axeman.
Everything else looks good, so we hit the big red button!

IBT
Mansa comes calling and wants to trade Spices to us for Dyes. May as well use what will be ours soon enough. I say yes.
Do a check and he also has 2 Stone, 2 Rice and 2 Sheep.
We learn Astronomy and start research on Theology, due in 3 turns.

Turn 141 – 620 AD
Interesting, our Galley build did not change to Galleons automatically?
Sailing along the northern coast, we find Mansa has crossbows. (Screenie)
Turn research slider down to 60% to gather some cash for Galley upgrades, Theology in 3 turns.
Visit Napoloean and he will not trade any resources at all.
Visit Mao and he will trade Gold to us for Pigs, I take the deal.

IBT
We build a Barracks in Tiwanaku and Galleys in Ollie, Machu and Cori.
Cori will complete a Barracks next turn.
Tiwanaku will complete a Galley next turn.
Machu starts a Maceman.
Ollie starts a Barracks.

Turn 142 – 640 AD
It costs 115 Gold to upgrade a Galley to Galleon. Galley in Machu is upgraded as it has the longest to travel.
Begin sailing the Galleys from Cori and Ollie to Tiwanaku.
Start northern most Caravel towards home.
Caravel on northern side of Mali Island goes east to look for Aztecs.
Caravel on southern side of Mali Island continues recon.

IBT
Tiwanaku Galley, start a Maceman.
Cori Barracks, start a Catapult.
Mao comes calling and wants to give us Cows for Wine. I agree as we need the health in Cuzco.
Napoleon comes demanding we give him tribute of Pigs. I cave in as I understood we want to try to improve relations with him. He will now trade. I offer him Optics and he will give us Hunting and Horseback Riding plus 50 Gold. I make the trade.

Turn 143 – 660 AD
Tiawanaku grew to size 11.
Upgrade Galley in Tiwanaku to a Galleon for 115 Gold.
Caravel meets The Aztecs. They are Annoyed with us. For some reason, I can’t get a screenie. They have Meditation but are behind us by 7 techs. They include: Monotheism, Monarchy, Code of Laws, Math, Alphabet, Metal Casting and Compass.
He is located to the west of Nappie.
Pop rush the Barracks in Ollie. It has 22 of 60 shields necessary and will only require 1 pop point. Rushing it provides 60 hammers, now at 82/60.
See more Crossbows in Mali.

IBT
We discover Theology and begin Engineering.
We change civics to Theocracy, Upkeep drops from 28 Gold to 25 Gold per turn and we have 1 turn of revolution.
Cuzco Forge, start a Catapult.
Ollie Barracks, start a Catapult.
Huamanga Lighthouse, start a Barracks.

Turn 144 – 680 AD
Continue exploring with Caravels.

IBT
We become a Theocracy.

Turn 145 – 700 AD
Complete the trip around Mali. I believe their capital is on the western end, closest to us.

IBT
Machu produces a Mace, starts another.

Turn 146 – 720 AD

IBT
Napolean comes visiting and wants to trade Gems to us for Wines. I agree.
Cori a Catapult, Maceman in 1 turn.

Turn 147 – 740 AD
Move units towards embarkation point near Tiwanaku.

IBT
Cuzco Catapult, start a Spearman.
Cori Maceman, start another.
Tiwanaku Maceman, start another.

Turn 148 – 760 AD
Upgrade a Galley to Galleon for 115 Gold.
MM Cuzco for hammers and to slow growth.
MM Ollie for Gold.
Whip a Mace in Machu. Is 35/70 and requires 1 pop point. After whip is 95/70.
Move Axe for upgrade to Mace towards Tiwanaku.

IBT
Machu Mace, start another.


Turn 149 – 780 AD
Caravel returns to home waters to pick up a unit or Missionary bound for Mali.
Visit Nappie and sign an Open Borders agreement.

IBT
The Aztecs show up and demand Monarchy. I show them the door.
Mao comes calling and wants an Open Borders agreement. I agree.
Cuzco Spearman, start a Maceman.
Ollie Catapult, start an Explorer.
Huamanga Barracks, start a Catapult.

Turn 150 – 800 AD
Promote Axeman to City Raider1, need 3 more Gold to upgrade to Mace.
There are several cities we could pop rush Maces, but it is not to our advantage as each will result in only 30 Hammers.

Our military now consists of:
8 Quechua
2 Axemen, 1 of which can upgrade next turn to a Mace.
5 Maces.
1 Spear.
3 Catapults.
1 Galley – that can be upgraded to Galleon instead of the Axe if we wish.
3 Caravels
3 Galleons.

We are building an Explorer in Ollie, Maces in Machu, Cuzco, Cori and Tiwanaku, and a Cat in Huamanga.

We are researching Engineering and have 2 turns remaining to completion. Mao has Feudalism but it is in red and he has the monopoly on it.

A proposed invasion route for Mursa.

EDIT - I forgot to say that I have not promoted any of our units except the Axeman that can be upgraded to a Maceman.

 

[Bezhukov]

Sounds pretty good in general - I'm sure Brad will have extensive good feedback to offer.

"I agree as we need the health in Cuzco."

As I was saying...

"Napoleon comes demanding we give him tribute of Pigs. I cave in as I understood we want to try to improve relations with him. He will now trade. I offer him Optics and he will give us Hunting and Horseback Riding plus 50 Gold. I make the trade."

Tributes are actually a good opportunity to build relations in CivIV. It would be handy to get on good enough terms with either Monty or Nappy to convince one to attack the other. Sounds like Nappy is the one.

On the other hand, giving him Optics probably wasn't the best, as it allows him to meet the other civs. Also, trading for ultra-cheap (hunting) and optional (horse) techs is something I tend to avoid, as there is an overall limit to how many techs can be traded for.

 

[Bede]

Much better to use terrain to our advantage. (Speaking as a Grumpy Old Man of AW) Forest are worth 50 and hills 25% IIRC and a forested hill is worth 75%

I can see making the Optics deal if the objective is making friends with Nappy, however. One sided deals in favor of the AI have a marked effect on the relationship level Besides, he knows everybody we know except Mansa already and there is only a 50% chance he will sail west.

 

[leif erikson]

I surely wasn't sure about the trading. I thought long and hard about making any trades with Napoleon. He was very hostile to start off. SInce his empire is so large, I thought that by opening some trades, we might improve relations and be able to tap into some of his resources before we are able to conquer our own. I tried to give him something that wouldn't hurt us too much and most of the techs we have lead to things he could use to get more advance techs that could cause us problems. Besides, what I have had happen in my test games is that if I don't trade something, they soon come making demands for tribute or "as friends" for important techs. To not give in means worsening relations. I probably should have discussed trading some before the turn set, but didn't really think enough about it. Too focused on pumping out troops.

And now that we've found a very hostile Montie, whose feeling I did little to soothe, next to Napoleon, perhaps we can use Napoleon as a base to go after Montie?

@Bede - You're right. I wanted to find some terrain to protect us as we went after their capital. I sailed that Caravel around there several times trying to find a way to highlight the city, but the game wouldn't cooperate!

So I selected the closest tile to where I thought the city was and put it on the map. Rethinking this morning, it might be better to initially take one of the coastal cities, Niani (which is closest to where I think the capital is) or Kumbi Saleh (to the south but more isolated and less in the influence of the capital) and then see if we can find a protected approach march to the capital. From what little I could see, there is only open terrain around the, perhaps, capital? But I think it would be nice to take out his best city with the initial force if we can do so.

 

[Bede]

Concur that taking the capitol early can be key, if the capturing or razing the capitol can create a sustainable salient. But if the capitol is in the center of the landmass, as this one appears to be, taking it exposes the landing force to counter attack from all sides while marching there and once the force has arrived.

My preference is nibble from the edges as it shortens the cultural boundaries and opens a path to the center that takes advantage of the terrain, which we can't see now.

Logistically we have to think in terms of an 8-10 move resupply and reinforcement cycle. Ideally we will want to to launch a reinforcement fleet at the same time we make the landing, which will cut that down to a four turn cycle.

 

[leif erikson]

Concur that taking the capitol early can be key, if the capturing or razing the capitol can create a sustainable salient. But if the capitol is in the center of the landmass, as this one appears to be, taking it exposes the landing force to counter attack from all sides while marching there and once the force has arrived.

The other option near to the capitol is the forest 1 NW of the landing site on my original map. But we would still be exposed for a turn in the march.

My preference is nibble from the edges as it shortens the cultural boundaries and opens a path to the center that takes advantage of the terrain, which we can't see now.

Logistically we have to think in terms of an 8-10 move resupply and reinforcement cycle. Ideally we will want to to launch a reinforcement fleet at the same time we make the landing, which will cut that down to a four turn cycle.

There is another way, but it will require time to set up. The little desert island off their coast provides an opportunity to stage a force, safe from the Malinese, while we go back for more reinforcements. Then we can land and reinforce in a turn. This will probably cost us about 5 to 7 turns to set up, if we can produce the forces quickly enough on our continent.

 

[bradleyfeanor]

You shouldn’t have passed on your turn Bez: it looks like things are getting very interesting, and your diplo services may end up in high demand. Perhaps you will change your mind. Given the way things changed during Leif’s turns, I think we need to reconsider our strategy.

I’m afraid my cIV inexperience is showing, because we have a problem in this game that I have not faced before and definitely did not expect. Namely, Mali seems to be building crossbowmen in significant numbers. That is very, very bad.

Against our current attack units, Macemen, crossbows are actually better city defenders than unpromoted longbows (on average a crossbow will be a 10.5 strength unit vs a 9.0 longbow). Basically, we didn’t want to pick a fight with anyone who had longbows, and this goes even more so for someone building lots of crossbows: Macemen just don’t have good enough odds against either of those units and our casualties would be too high. Crossbows are not only good against defending cities, they would also be very good defenders in the open field and good counter attackers against Macemen. We would be looking at close to even odds in the majority of our battles, and that is to be avoided.

If we continue with the plan to attack Mali, we will be forced to come with a lot more units: about half our macemen would need to be promoted for attacking in the open field and the other half would need to be given the standard city attack promotions. We would also probably need to build some crossbowmen of our own for defense. And even after doing all of that, we still wouldn’t enjoy very favorable odds. Our goal was to get a tech advantage and then use that for military gain, but due to the crossbows, Mali has essentially eliminated the military tech advantage we currently have.

I now think attacking Mali would be a very bad idea. We would lose lots of troops and end up spending too much production time building replacements. Then war weariness would catch us and we would end up in an economic quagmire.

If we were choosing between attacking Mali or building infrastructure like Bez was advocating, then I would definitely choose infrastructure. We don’t want to mess with Mali unless we have at least knights or Grenadiers to attack with: the combo of his skirmishers and crossbows is too strong for Macemen to overcome easily. Fortunately, we have another option, and that is to pick a different target more suited to the military we have already built: a target against whom our Macemen would have a decided advantage. I think that “whom” is the Aztecs.

There are only two cons I see in making the Aztecs our first foe. One, they are about 3 moves further away than Mali, and two, they don’t have the pyramids. There are a lot of pros: they already hate us and will never be a trading partner. We could continue to keep Mali as a trading partner. With a little help from Bez, we might be able to bring allies into the war with the Aztecs. The Aztecs are decidedly backward in technology. Their units (jags, archers and axmen) are pitifully inadequate against macemen. The Aztecs have the Buddhist shrine, so that would be a great target for us economically. And last, they are on the “big” continent that we will have to take a significant portion of in order to reach domination: getting a second core set up on that continent will allow us to half the number of boats we need in the late game.

If we go with the Aztec war strategy, I think our current units will be able to win around 90% of their battles, if not more. If we attack Mali our win ratio would probably drop to around 60%. The higher win ratio is very important, not only for economic reasons, but for long-term military strength. If we attack the Aztecs, we will end up with many highly promoted Macemen that can then be upgraded to—basically invincible—Grenadiers. That will not be the case if we attack Mali.

If we do switch strategies, I think it will be very important for us to get a few missionaries into Mali ASAP. We don’t want the Aztecs to convert them to Buddhism and gain a powerful tech trade partner.

The one wild card I see in this plan is that we still have not met one AI, and that guy might be a Buddhist ally of the Aztecs.

What do you guys think? Other analyses, opinions and strategy ideas would be most welcome right now.

 

[leif erikson]

The Aztecs first is fine with me. I was looking at the info screen and the Aztecs production curve is interesting as it drops and then levels off. Their power curve shows higher than us, but not that much higher. Theyt are last in Gold production and way below us and Mali in culture, so there defenses due to culture should be weaker. An interesting note, Mali is nearly neck and neck with us on the culture scale, more defense!

In the diplo screen, the Aztec list of cities includes Delhi, so they must have been a part of the destruction of India. So they probably have some units with some nice promotions.

By the way, the other civ must be America as Napoleon has taken New York, Washington, Atlanta, Boston and Chicago! Can't be much left of him, can there? Who was eliminated, America or India?

I agree with the Aztecs for the reason you stated Brad. I'm not so worried about someone being a Buddist ally with the Aztecs as, if that is America, there can't be much left of them as Napoleon seems to have taken most of his cities! If it is India, their capital was seized by the Aztecs. How can they possibly be a close ally?