bradleyfeanor
King
I forgot about those American cities. You are right, America can't have enough left to affect the game.
Gator02 - Learning to Walk
- Thread starter DJMGator13
- Start date
If we do this, should we buddy up with Mursa and make him an ally and try to conquer the larger continent to gain our 67%? Is there a way to tell, without CivAssit or MapStat, how many tiles are in Mursa's domain versus what is on the other continent? 
I feel naked without my utilities!!
I feel naked without my utilities!!
bradleyfeanor
King
leif erikson said:If we do this, should we buddy up with Mursa and make him an ally and try to conquer the larger continent to gain our 67%? Is there a way to tell, without CivAssit or MapStat, how many tiles are in Mursa's domain versus what is on the other continent?
I think that is likely a good plan--one that will get us to dom the quickest. Since we won't be getting the pyramids early, why bother at all?
I don't know of a way to calculate the tiles needed short of counting them, but just from what we see it looks like the big continent will put us over the limit.
DJMGator13
Still breathing
I think a change of plans is in order. Heres a quick analysis of the known civs.
I think we should completely ignore Mansa and concentrate on the Aztecs. This gives us a foothold on the Big C and we only have to transport troops once. We can promote our maces as we eliminate the Aztecs and then upgrade them to grenadiers to go after China and then France. America is there also so they can be dealt with at the same time.
Depending on how much further the Big C goes out west of the Aztecs there may be not much difference in the amount of turns required to transport units. Besides when were ready to go after China or France we can send new troops to the eastern side of Big C and have our forces met in the middle. That should be more than enough tiles to grab domination. We may need to war with Mansa later in the game if he tries to poach city locations on Big C, but I dont think we need a full assault on his island. Although he has the Wonders, we can do it without them, and we can keep our forces focused on conquering Big C.
I think we should completely ignore Mansa and concentrate on the Aztecs. This gives us a foothold on the Big C and we only have to transport troops once. We can promote our maces as we eliminate the Aztecs and then upgrade them to grenadiers to go after China and then France. America is there also so they can be dealt with at the same time.
Depending on how much further the Big C goes out west of the Aztecs there may be not much difference in the amount of turns required to transport units. Besides when were ready to go after China or France we can send new troops to the eastern side of Big C and have our forces met in the middle. That should be more than enough tiles to grab domination. We may need to war with Mansa later in the game if he tries to poach city locations on Big C, but I dont think we need a full assault on his island. Although he has the Wonders, we can do it without them, and we can keep our forces focused on conquering Big C.
If we think we can gain domination without Mansa's little continent, shouldn't we make him into a trading ally? That will keep him from trading with the other continent, for the most part. We will need to export some Missionaries to convert him to our religion, and our side. Plus I think we can make some Gold off that as well.
In addition, I think Bez has given us something to think about here. We are pretty far ahead in tech compared to the Big "C" nations. Would it be to our advantage to declare on the Aztecs and pay France and China to ally with us against Montie? Although Napoleon is pleased with Montie, as is Mao. How can we break that up?
We may have to be careful as attacking Montie may bring both China and France into the war against us!
What size force do you think we would need to attack Montie? And would it help us to attack more to the west, away from Nappie and Mao?
EDIT - The reason Nappie and Mao are not in sync with us is our religious differences. Is it better to flood them with Missionaries or, temporarily, change to their religion? Montie is a different religion from both of them?
In addition, I think Bez has given us something to think about here. We are pretty far ahead in tech compared to the Big "C" nations. Would it be to our advantage to declare on the Aztecs and pay France and China to ally with us against Montie? Although Napoleon is pleased with Montie, as is Mao. How can we break that up?
We may have to be careful as attacking Montie may bring both China and France into the war against us!
What size force do you think we would need to attack Montie? And would it help us to attack more to the west, away from Nappie and Mao?
EDIT - The reason Nappie and Mao are not in sync with us is our religious differences. Is it better to flood them with Missionaries or, temporarily, change to their religion? Montie is a different religion from both of them?
Yeah, I ran into xbows in GOTM3. I figured it was set up for the Brad strategy and no other. Everything was great until Monty showed up with xbows. My Samurai were like "Hey, what ha-happened to my invincible katana? No fair!" 
"How can we break that up?"
Sometimes it requires spies to unhook resources (thus canceling trades and hurting relations). You can also use tech to bribe trade cancellation. If they have the same religion, that's a huge problem, as getting enough missionaries there to change it is a large pain in the butt. I typically choose what wars to foment based on existing antagonisms. If they're aren't any, you're in for a long game.
Once you can get a war ally, everything else falls into place more easily, as fighting together boosts relations significantly. If we have a different religion than Nappy, that's going to be a problem as well.
The situation we find ourselves in was the one to which I was speaking when I advised perhaps keeping options open.
To expect to pull off an ocean invasion before Mansa of all people gets xbows is beyond my limited experience.
"How can we break that up?"
Sometimes it requires spies to unhook resources (thus canceling trades and hurting relations). You can also use tech to bribe trade cancellation. If they have the same religion, that's a huge problem, as getting enough missionaries there to change it is a large pain in the butt. I typically choose what wars to foment based on existing antagonisms. If they're aren't any, you're in for a long game.
Once you can get a war ally, everything else falls into place more easily, as fighting together boosts relations significantly. If we have a different religion than Nappy, that's going to be a problem as well.
The situation we find ourselves in was the one to which I was speaking when I advised perhaps keeping options open.
To expect to pull off an ocean invasion before Mansa of all people gets xbows is beyond my limited experience.
I don't think we've closed any option at this point. The plan, as with all plans, needs some change and adjustment. 
As we are all trying to learn, the question remains, How can we successfully invade the big continent without having all three civs there ally against us? Is there certain technology (spies) that we must have? Can we use diplomacy or religion to break them up and turn them to the "dark side"? (our side)
If we require a technology solution, we certainly have the flexability, with our superior Gold production, to fairly quickly get it, depending upon the "cost" to do so.
EDIT - added - (By cost I mean what we give up, time, troop production techs (grenadiers), etc.) Perhaps the answer is superior units that can stand up to all three civs?
I guess the bottom line is, What are our options?
As we are all trying to learn, the question remains, How can we successfully invade the big continent without having all three civs there ally against us? Is there certain technology (spies) that we must have? Can we use diplomacy or religion to break them up and turn them to the "dark side"? (our side)
If we require a technology solution, we certainly have the flexability, with our superior Gold production, to fairly quickly get it, depending upon the "cost" to do so.
EDIT - added - (By cost I mean what we give up, time, troop production techs (grenadiers), etc.) Perhaps the answer is superior units that can stand up to all three civs?
I guess the bottom line is, What are our options?
bradleyfeanor
King
Lots of good stuff, guys.
Is it my turn next? I lost track.
As soon as our four galleys are loaded we should have enough units to begin the conquest of the Aztecs. Due to the units Monty builds (lots of Melee units and archers), our Macemen will do very well against him. Gator's assault strategy looks like a good one too.
I think it is very unlikely that the Aztecs could get France or China into the war against us: he has no techs to give them and their relations aren't that great either. Ideally, I would like to get China or France to help us with the Aztecs, but I don't think it is necessary. The only way we could get a lot of value from getting one of them to attack would be to buy them into war before we land units on the big continent ourselves, but I don't know of any way to improve our relations enough to get them to do that. Building a mass of missionaries to temporarily convert them would definitely not be worth it: in the time we would spend building all those missionaries, we could instead have built enough units to destroy the Aztecs and get started on the destruction of Mao.
In any case, I am still quite confident that we will walk over the AIs once we field our grenadiers.
Is it my turn next? I lost track.
As soon as our four galleys are loaded we should have enough units to begin the conquest of the Aztecs. Due to the units Monty builds (lots of Melee units and archers), our Macemen will do very well against him. Gator's assault strategy looks like a good one too.
I think it is very unlikely that the Aztecs could get France or China into the war against us: he has no techs to give them and their relations aren't that great either. Ideally, I would like to get China or France to help us with the Aztecs, but I don't think it is necessary. The only way we could get a lot of value from getting one of them to attack would be to buy them into war before we land units on the big continent ourselves, but I don't know of any way to improve our relations enough to get them to do that. Building a mass of missionaries to temporarily convert them would definitely not be worth it: in the time we would spend building all those missionaries, we could instead have built enough units to destroy the Aztecs and get started on the destruction of Mao.
In any case, I am still quite confident that we will walk over the AIs once we field our grenadiers.
As for options, its likely that you're still so far ahead that you'll be fine one way or the other. The strength of the course I unsuccessfully attempted to advocate was not only its stronger economic infrastructure, but things like free religion that could have removed the religion malus impeding us from bribing Nappy and Mao from doing our bidding. I must confess to my own "cookie-cutter" in that I invariably beeline for liberalism. My first loss came in a game where I beelined Astronomy in a manner similar to this game, as I was playing a Terra map and wanted to be first to the new world. I indeed had it to myself, but meanwhile Mansa launched in 1844!
In this game, it's conceivable that you could found a new city, which likely would "catch" one of their religions, then switch your state religion to that, which would give you a big relations bonus.
In this game, it's conceivable that you could found a new city, which likely would "catch" one of their religions, then switch your state religion to that, which would give you a big relations bonus.
DJMGator13
Still breathing
Roster
bradleyfeanor - Wine glass in hand and ready to play
Gator - watching the Gators make it thru Round I
Bede - met the neighbors
Bezhukov - skip, at his request
leif - just played
bradleyfeanor - Wine glass in hand and ready to play
Gator - watching the Gators make it thru Round I
Bede - met the neighbors
Bezhukov - skip, at his request
leif - just played
Good luck Brad! 
bradleyfeanor
King
All done, and things are going swimmingly. Switching to Monty as our target was a great idea: he is a total wimp. He is actually running from us. 
We took one city and are just about to take another. We killed several units but didn’t lose any, and we probably will never lose more than 1 or 2 cats if we are careful. We got lots of xps too.
We had two viable choices on where to attack first: Texcoco or Tlatelolco. I chose Tlatelolco because it allowed us to land directly on a roaded hill for better defense and better mobility after the city capture. I also chose that city because it had a lot more units inside and we could reach 10xps with a few units. But I wasn't expecting half the Aztec garrison to run away.
Once we take Texcoco, we will probably have enough units to begin conquering with two stacks.
Here is my log:
I considered switching to Caste System on my last turn but decided not to. Since we are extremely close to turning off research in this game, I am not sure we need it anymore (but I could be wrong—slavery is still an experiment for me). We can trade Mansa for Music if we want to, and then just build culture in order to get our border expansions. However, if you guys want to switch to CS, now would be the time. We have three forests that are about to chop, so if we did a Civic change now we could also temporarily switch back to Organized Religion. That would allow us to get a lot of bonus hammers for our chops plus we could build a few missionaries to go convert Mansa. It is really important that we do that. In 8 turns however, we will be able to go ahead and build monasteries and then missionaries. It is a bit of a gamble to wait that long, but perhaps it is worth the risk. I am leaning toward staying in slavery and avoiding the 2 turns of revolution to switch civics twice.
I would consider researching drama next rather than going straight into gunpowder. I don’t think we need any theaters, but it would be nice to have a tech to trade Mao to improve relations and it also might not be a bad idea to trade Drama and some other tech for Music (for border expansions).
Our Great Scientist is due in 8 turns. Be sure not to trade for Meditation until then, because that will allow our scientist to give us 1,500 beakers toward Chemistry. That means we will have our Grenadiers in about 10 turns. As soon as we use our Scientist we can also trade for or research Meditation so that we can build missionaries and convert Mansa.
I don’t think we need any more boats—just lots of units and a couple of courthouses. I would build mostly Macemen, Knights and Cats, but I would slip in a pikeman every so often, because every stack will need one until we have grenadiers.
We are all set up to take Texcoco next with 3 loaded boats. You should move in with one boat at a time though because you may not need all the units: I saw two chariots and two axmen fleeing the city already. Where they are going I don’t know: somewhere to the NE, so I suspect his capitol might be in that direction.
As soon as Tiwanaku grows again, I would hire either an Engineer or a priest: a priest if you want free divine right, an engineer if you want him to go toward Steel or to build the FP. I am leaning toward an Engineer because I don’t think we really need Divine Right in this game (Versailles won’t be necessary because we have plenty of commerce as it is).
Just like in Civ3, it is good to get the FP in the center of a bunch of cities. That way it will have a bigger impact on reducing our distance maintenance. One or two cities to the east would probably be the ideal location for us.
As soon as one of our units gets 10 xps (we have several units with 9 now), be sure to start Cori on the Heroic Epic.
I accidentally traded Mao Incense for 5gpt. This deal should be cancelled as soon as we can. Then you can trade the incense to mansa for sugar if you wish.
There are three workers currently chopping forests: 1 near Machu and 2 near Tiwanaku. I would switch Tiwanaku to the Hagia Sophia to “catch” the chops, then switch the city back to a pikeman.
The Save
Edit: There is a worker on the FP near Huamanga. I'm not sure what we should do with him. In about 6 turns or so, we will want to irrigate one of the FPs and then the grassland east of the city. We will no longer need that village at that point in the game, but we will definitely need the food so that Huamanga can work another hill. I already irrigated a few cottages around Cori for the same reason. Monty has a ton of workers (although I couldn't catch them yet), so I don't think we should send any of ours away until we have completely developed our continent.
We took one city and are just about to take another. We killed several units but didn’t lose any, and we probably will never lose more than 1 or 2 cats if we are careful. We got lots of xps too.We had two viable choices on where to attack first: Texcoco or Tlatelolco. I chose Tlatelolco because it allowed us to land directly on a roaded hill for better defense and better mobility after the city capture. I also chose that city because it had a lot more units inside and we could reach 10xps with a few units. But I wasn't expecting half the Aztec garrison to run away.
Once we take Texcoco, we will probably have enough units to begin conquering with two stacks.
Here is my log:
Spoiler :
hopefully our shrine and open borders will spread the faith for us. I considered switching to Caste System on my last turn but decided not to. Since we are extremely close to turning off research in this game, I am not sure we need it anymore (but I could be wrong—slavery is still an experiment for me). We can trade Mansa for Music if we want to, and then just build culture in order to get our border expansions. However, if you guys want to switch to CS, now would be the time. We have three forests that are about to chop, so if we did a Civic change now we could also temporarily switch back to Organized Religion. That would allow us to get a lot of bonus hammers for our chops plus we could build a few missionaries to go convert Mansa. It is really important that we do that. In 8 turns however, we will be able to go ahead and build monasteries and then missionaries. It is a bit of a gamble to wait that long, but perhaps it is worth the risk. I am leaning toward staying in slavery and avoiding the 2 turns of revolution to switch civics twice.
I would consider researching drama next rather than going straight into gunpowder. I don’t think we need any theaters, but it would be nice to have a tech to trade Mao to improve relations and it also might not be a bad idea to trade Drama and some other tech for Music (for border expansions).
Our Great Scientist is due in 8 turns. Be sure not to trade for Meditation until then, because that will allow our scientist to give us 1,500 beakers toward Chemistry. That means we will have our Grenadiers in about 10 turns. As soon as we use our Scientist we can also trade for or research Meditation so that we can build missionaries and convert Mansa.
I don’t think we need any more boats—just lots of units and a couple of courthouses. I would build mostly Macemen, Knights and Cats, but I would slip in a pikeman every so often, because every stack will need one until we have grenadiers.
We are all set up to take Texcoco next with 3 loaded boats. You should move in with one boat at a time though because you may not need all the units: I saw two chariots and two axmen fleeing the city already. Where they are going I don’t know: somewhere to the NE, so I suspect his capitol might be in that direction.
As soon as Tiwanaku grows again, I would hire either an Engineer or a priest: a priest if you want free divine right, an engineer if you want him to go toward Steel or to build the FP. I am leaning toward an Engineer because I don’t think we really need Divine Right in this game (Versailles won’t be necessary because we have plenty of commerce as it is).
Just like in Civ3, it is good to get the FP in the center of a bunch of cities. That way it will have a bigger impact on reducing our distance maintenance. One or two cities to the east would probably be the ideal location for us.
As soon as one of our units gets 10 xps (we have several units with 9 now), be sure to start Cori on the Heroic Epic.
I accidentally traded Mao Incense for 5gpt. This deal should be cancelled as soon as we can. Then you can trade the incense to mansa for sugar if you wish.
There are three workers currently chopping forests: 1 near Machu and 2 near Tiwanaku. I would switch Tiwanaku to the Hagia Sophia to “catch” the chops, then switch the city back to a pikeman.
The Save
Edit: There is a worker on the FP near Huamanga. I'm not sure what we should do with him. In about 6 turns or so, we will want to irrigate one of the FPs and then the grassland east of the city. We will no longer need that village at that point in the game, but we will definitely need the food so that Huamanga can work another hill. I already irrigated a few cottages around Cori for the same reason. Monty has a ton of workers (although I couldn't catch them yet), so I don't think we should send any of ours away until we have completely developed our continent.
Looks good, nice to be off and running finally! 
I don't think I've ever heard of units fleeing a city before. Taking the capital should prove interesting.
Checking Mansa's screen, I see Sheep and Stone. Nappie has Sugar. Perhaps the Sheep would be a good idea as some cities seem to have extra happy faces but are using extra food because of health.
I don't think I've ever heard of units fleeing a city before. Taking the capital should prove interesting.
Checking Mansa's screen, I see Sheep and Stone. Nappie has Sugar.
Perhaps the Sheep would be a good idea as some cities seem to have extra happy faces but are using extra food because of health.
bradleyfeanor
King
I think the only place where we are lacking health is the 1 food in the capitol, which it really doesn't need right now. We might want Cuzco to grow one size larger eventually--in order to claim another hill--but for now I think it is a large as it needs to be. I would go for the sugar instead to help us stave off war weariness. Since we don't have the pyramids and can't run police state, WW will not be long in arriving.
EDIT: I just noticed that Mansa still needs fish. We have an unconnected fish west of Olly. If we get a workboat on it, then we can trade for both the sugar and the sheep.
EDIT: I just noticed that Mansa still needs fish. We have an unconnected fish west of Olly. If we get a workboat on it, then we can trade for both the sugar and the sheep.
Hopefully, having that Sugar as our own won't be far off either!!
DJMGator13
Still breathing
Looks good.
If we stay in Slavery we could poprush on Big C to help get a core going there and changing out of Theocracy loses the experience for new units. I think I'd stay as we are and gamble on sending missionaries later.
EDIT: Could Monty's troops be running to deal with barbs and/or possibly America?
If we stay in Slavery we could poprush on Big C to help get a core going there and changing out of Theocracy loses the experience for new units. I think I'd stay as we are and gamble on sending missionaries later.
EDIT: Could Monty's troops be running to deal with barbs and/or possibly America?
DJMGator13
Still breathing
The more I study the map the more I think making the switch to CS now is a good choice. We can make some missionaries in lieu of troops to temporarily offset the lost experience points and we would not need to invest 60 hammers in creating monasteries. Those hammers could go straight into missionaries. Building 2 monasteries equals 3 missionaries in the field.
But the tradeoff is an increase in civic upkeep of 14gpt, so we would have to lower science to 60% for the next tech.
But the tradeoff is an increase in civic upkeep of 14gpt, so we would have to lower science to 60% for the next tech.
bradleyfeanor
King
DJMGator13 said:
You might not have to lower the slider for long with the pillage revenue coming in. I am more concerned with the cost of two turns of anarchy. That's a loss of around 500gold/beakers if I recall correctly: a pretty steep price for getting three missionaries about 10 turns earlier. However, if the early missionaries were to prevent Mansa from ending up Jewish, it might be worth it.
It's not an easy decision. Waiting on the missionaries is a bit of a gamble, but I think I prefer that choice. It would be nice to keep the ability to whip for a bit longer if we can, and the ability to run merchants wouldn't be of much use to us at present. But, if you decide to go Org. Rel. and CS I certainly won't say it was a bad decision..
Down the road--when we lose our open border agreements with Mao and Nappy--then we might need to consider a switch to Caste System/Mercantilism (after researching Banking). But if we are able to build enough troops and conquer fast enough, we can stay in Slavery/Theocracy until the end of this game.
I'm a little disappointed that our shrine hasn't spread the faith to any of Mansa's cities. Usually I see the shrine spread religion to a city or two fairly quickly. I wish there were a way to change our trade routes to Mali without cancelling open border agreements with Nappy and Mao. I suspect that is a big part of the problem.
DJMGator13
Still breathing
I think you're right speed should remain the focus for now. Two turns may not sound like much but in my practice game I was about to attack the Aztec capital city that was garrisoned with longbows and a musket, they learned Rifling and now have rifles in that city on the turn I was going to launch my attack.
Although our game should be over before that could happen here. Pressing the advantage before it expires should stay as the first priority. Besides this gives us a chance to play with Slavery some more.
I think I'll go ahead and start, I should have it posted before the Gator game comes on around 3:30pm.
Although our game should be over before that could happen here. Pressing the advantage before it expires should stay as the first priority. Besides this gives us a chance to play with Slavery some more.
I think I'll go ahead and start, I should have it posted before the Gator game comes on around 3:30pm.
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