DJMGator13
Still breathing
I've not poprushed so I'm no help on the granary issue.
Edit: crossed with Brad.
Edit: crossed with Brad.
Gator02 - Learning to Walk
- Thread starter DJMGator13
- Start date
OOoops, 2 turns! 
Nice try, at least you enjoyed the wine!
Nice try, at least you enjoyed the wine!
bradleyfeanor
King
I felt compelled to do that, because I got all the boring set-up turns and now Gator gets all the exciting ones. I am highly suspicious that the fix was in with this player order.
Summary: Oracle due next turn. AIs are now officially toasted.
1600: change Machu from granary to barracks. Get Masonry
1560: Start CoL, due in 16
1520: Cuzco gets Settler, start worker. Hire 2 scientists and CoL is now due in 11 turns.
1440: Found Ollyantambo (aka Fish Fry) and start a work boat. Will explain that choice later. Workers are building cottages to be used by the tiny cities of Tiwanaku and Ollyantambo while they are waiting for their borders to expand.
1400: Switch 3 cities to work coast tiles and get COL 2 turns sooner.
1280: put a couple of citizens back to work on high hammer tiles. COL still due in 3. Machu reaches the happiness limit.
1200: Machu gets barracks, st. Settler to make use of all Machu's extra food from the pig and FPs. MM cities so that CoL is due in exactly 1 turn. Chop completes, which will complete the Oracle next turn and send a big overflow into a workboat.
The reason I tried to keep our cities building units like workboats, workers and settlers is because I think our next tech should be Monotheism. That will enable us to spread our religion with Missionaries via Organized Religion (remember, we should NOT research Meditation or trade for it).
I like to build things in waves when possible: units and such prior to Organized religion, buildings after. We would be better off building our structures after we are in that civic due to the 25% hammer bonus for buildings. This would also be a great time to chop down a few more forests to get Libraries built.
After Mono, I would get Math, but Monarchy or IW are certainly viable options as well. I would chose math because it would enable us to build the Hanging Gardens in Tiwanaku and start generating Great Engineer points to add to our prophet points. If we generate an Engineer in time to research Machinery or Engineering for us, it will knock quite a few turns off our victory date.
In the long term, I think the four cities we now have should get Libraries, along with the city that we found in the dyes. After that, building any libraries would be a waste of our time. The game won't last long enough for us to see the benefit of any additional libraries, except perhaps in a heavily cottaged AI city or three that we capture. Almost every city, however, will eventually need a courthouse and a barracks.
For Gator:
The worker in Machu was on his way to build a cottage on a grass tile shared by Cuzco and Machu, but perhaps you will think of a better job for him.
Adam jumped NE to the forest hill in order to let a barb attack him and die. I would move him back SE to the hill after that (in hopes that the dreamed-of barb city will still appear for us)
Several cities should be MMed to hammers or cottages from the coast tiles as you see fit after Code. They are only working all that commerce in order get Code next turn.
Be very careful with Machu and Cuzco. After they build their settler and worker, they will grow very quickly. I wouldn't allow them to grow unless you can get religion into them quickly and increase the happiness limit.
So I got all the boring turns and you get all the good ones.
My only consolation is that, if you revolt (as you should), you will miss getting to build the academy by one turn. 
Speaking of revolts, I personally would revolt to bureaucracy and caste system, then follow that with Confucianism. I am willing to try the slavery route though if you guys would like.
There are two reasons I like Caste System better: 1) we can expand borders in our cities quickly by running an artist for 3 turns, which allows us to ignore culture buildings and funnel those shields to the military where we want them, and 2) we can run merchants. Merchants will allow us to use our bureaucratic/academy captol more effectively. We don't want to lower our science slider if all all possible, because the library/academy combo multiplies our research by a percentage. So the lower the science slider goes, the less value we get from the science buildings in our capitol.
Edit: Hmmm, forgot something important: The Save
Commentary on slavery:
It is a useful labor civic for a hammer poor food rich environment when you need to build a lot of Medieval/Renaissance era buildings and are driving to a late game victory condition (Culture/Space/Diplomatic). You can use it to great effect on a map where you have coastal towns with coastal food bonuses but don't have the equivalent land based hammer bonus fields on land (tundra, or desert or plains that lack water for irrigation or lots of mountains). I saw it used to great effect on a Highlands map with an inland sea that had coastal food resources.
On the map we have in front of us, Fish Fry would make great whipping city once it could work the two sea resources. But IIRC that would be the only one. I, for one, would like to see the impact of Caste System in more detail in this game.
@brad, you are the
. I was warming up to a rant on sticking the course when you posted the
It is a useful labor civic for a hammer poor food rich environment when you need to build a lot of Medieval/Renaissance era buildings and are driving to a late game victory condition (Culture/Space/Diplomatic). You can use it to great effect on a map where you have coastal towns with coastal food bonuses but don't have the equivalent land based hammer bonus fields on land (tundra, or desert or plains that lack water for irrigation or lots of mountains). I saw it used to great effect on a Highlands map with an inland sea that had coastal food resources.
On the map we have in front of us, Fish Fry would make great whipping city once it could work the two sea resources. But IIRC that would be the only one. I, for one, would like to see the impact of Caste System in more detail in this game.
@brad, you are the
. I was warming up to a rant on sticking the course when you posted the
Turns look real good and nice explaination as well, thanks.
I must admit, you got me!! 
Looks like that "Cottage Wine" may have been a bit more aged than we thought! ![[party]](/images/smilies/partytime.gif "Party [party]")
You really have my curiousity of what you're up to with Meditation?? I'll try to be patient and let it all play out....
I must admit, you got me!! Looks like that "Cottage Wine" may have been a bit more aged than we thought! You really have my curiousity of what you're up to with Meditation?? I'll try to be patient and let it all play out....
Good work, as usual BF. The key to effective whipping is that the food box is smaller at lower pops, so if you can whip the city down to one population, it will recover the population very quickly, especially when that one pop is working a pig sty. The other important thing is that in CivIV, you only get one unhappy face per whip, no matter how much population you spend. I've been known to whip wonders this way, for up to ten pop. 
It does help to have some happiness cushion, so things would have been tight in Macchu. Probably could have built the granary by hand, grown into one unhappy citizen, then whipped almost the entire library, and grown back the pop while the happiness penalty wore off, or just hired two scientists at 3 pop until the penalty went away.
I like to whip the granary and lighthouse for new cities that have a water bonus, then let them grow out.
I'd like to nab Monarchy so we can hook some wine and get some happiness flexibility in case we're isolated by ocean. If we had contact, I'd go alpha->drama/lit and then trade for the others, but we don't.
It does help to have some happiness cushion, so things would have been tight in Macchu. Probably could have built the granary by hand, grown into one unhappy citizen, then whipped almost the entire library, and grown back the pop while the happiness penalty wore off, or just hired two scientists at 3 pop until the penalty went away.
I like to whip the granary and lighthouse for new cities that have a water bonus, then let them grow out.
I'd like to nab Monarchy so we can hook some wine and get some happiness flexibility in case we're isolated by ocean. If we had contact, I'd go alpha->drama/lit and then trade for the others, but we don't.
bradleyfeanor
King
leif erikson said:You really have my curiousity of what you're up to with Meditation?? I'll try to be patient and let it all play out....
It's nothing so cool I'm afraid. In fact, it was probably a mistake in this game. When I asked you not to research Med I was hoping I would find a way to solve the problem, but I can't.
A great scientist will give us 1,512 beakers towards a free tech. That is 50% more beakers than we would get for other types of Great People. Also, Great Scientists are easier to get thanks to the Great Library. That makes coming up with a strategy to utilize Great Scientists very useful, especially for non-philosophical civs like us.
Here is a list of the techs you will get for a Great Scientist, in the order you will get them, assuming you have the prerequisites for each tech:
Writing
Mathematics
Scientific Method
Physics
Printing Press
Education
Computers
Fiber Optics
The Wheel
Optics
Philosophy
Chemistry
Fission
Fusion
Compass
Paper
Astronomy
Biology
Electricity
Flight
Satellites
Genetics
Sailing
Alphabet
Calendar
Medicine
Iron Working
Metal Casting
Engineering
Steam Power
Ecology
Agriculture
Masonry
Bronze Working
Machinery
Gunpowder
Liberalism
Refrigeration
Rocketry
Fishing
Mining
Combustion
Radio
Plastics
Composites
Hunting
Archery
Meditation
Animal Husbandry
Drama
Construction
Theology
Music
Civil Service
Economics
Corporation
Democracy
Communism
Robotics
Monotheism
Horseback Riding
Replaceable Parts
Rifling
Mass Media
Artillery
Future Tech
For this game, I think the first tech on the list that would really help us is Chemistry (in bold). The tricky part is getting the techs listed above Chemistry out of the way so we can get to it. Some of them are easy: Writing, Math, Wheel and Optics can be researched without much cost, and several others, such as Sci. Method, come long after Chemistry and aren't a problem. I have italicised the techs that are problematic in this game.
By not researching Meditation, we have ensured that we won't get Philosophy if we use a great scientist (Meditation is the prerequisite). That leaves Printing Press, Education and Paper as our "problem" techs, and the reason they are an issue is because we are alone on an island. Researching Paper is necessary to get Astronomy, and Paper enables research of Printing Press and Education, which come before Chemistry.
So in order for the "chemistry gambit" to work, we would have to research Engineering, Guilds and Gunpowder before researching Paper and Astronomy. That would allow us to use a scientist to research most of Chemistry for us.
If we were on the same continent with our enemies and didn't need Astronomy, then that would be fine and dandy. But we aren't, and we will probably want Galleons as early as possible. I suspect if we head straight to Machinery and Astronomy, for instance, that we will be able to kill one or two AIs before they have Longbowmen.
So the problem becomes one of timing. Having a scientist to research Chemistry for us would be very helpful, but if it costs us an early macemen conquest and the establishment of a second core on the new continent...well, it obviously wouldn't be worth it.
The only way I see the Chemistry strategy coming to fruition is if we get lucky and generate a Great Engineer to research Engineering for us. Then, it might be a good option.
But given our healthy tech pace, I think it is more likely that we wind up using a couple of scientists for Optics, Education or Printing Press to reach the other continent a bit sooner, perhaps a priest for a shrine and another for Divine Right (Versailles) and then use a couple of other GPs to trigger a GA.
So sorry I built up your anticipation. It probably wasn't a good strategy for this game.
But you never know, maybe the AIs will advance faster than I am expecting. If they do, then we will be happy we left the Chemistry gambit open.BF, I really think you need to learn the wonders of the slavery civic. No upkeep (BTW, the difference between no upkeep and low upkeep equals the difference between low upkeep and high upkeep, and we're not Organized in this game), can trade those unhappy faces in conquered cities for hammers, I'm really surprised that a warmonger like you doesn't make extensive use of it. I use it a lot even as a builder, but I never use it more intensively than when forced into war.
Just discovered that Kremlin halves whip cost.
Just discovered that Kremlin halves whip cost.
bradleyfeanor
King
Bezhukov said:
Ah ha! Between Bede's explaination and that little gem, I now understand. Thanks guys!
Hmmm. My glass be empty. Now where is that Cottage-Wine Wench?
Edit due to crosspost: You are right, I'm going to have to play around with Slavery more. I don't get too many unhappy faces in my mongering though, as I usually grab luxuries very early in the war. I currently really enjoy Caste System for the free border pops and afterward the Merchants. It will be interesting to see how Slavery stacks up. I didn't care for it when poping one citizen at a time, but with multiples maybe I will feel differently.
bradleyfeanor
King
Since Gator is going to have to choose betwen Caste and Slavery at the beginning of his turns, I guess we should decide which way we want to go. I'm going to abstain. I think I will learn a lot by going the slavery route, especially if you guys write good posts that detail your rushes and the reasoning behind them, but I would also be happy "Demoing" the Caste System route. I think we have a vote from Bede for "Caste", and I assume that Bez would like slavery. Can we get a vote from our other intrepid adventurers?
As you guys know, my quick domination games utilize caste system. Here are my main concerns about going the slavery route instead:
1) Great Person generation. I make heavy use of Caste in one or two cities to generate a great many Great Person Points. How will we do this if we are in slavery?
2) City Specialization. Our capitol is specialized to generate science, for instance, but it is only effective if we keep the science slider high. I use merchants to do that in Caste, but how will we do it in Slavery?
3) Attacking the AIs early. This is critical if we want to achieve a fast domination, of course. The main way I do this is by minimizing building construction in cities. I build only what is necessary, which outside the core, usually means chopping a courthouse and a barracks: that's it. I elliminate the need for culture buildings by using artists for a few turns. It sounds like we will have to build theatres, at a minimum, if we go with slavery. I know they are cheap, but we will need around 30 of them, so that really adds up.
4) Sustaining the Economy during the Military Push. Failing to do this is the #1 way that I see early military games fail. One of the best ways to sustain the economy is to grow AI cities very quickly after taking them, and maximizing the number of commerce tiles that they work. This is especially important with a Financial civ. If we are pop rushing a lot with slavery, I am afraid we may lose out on too much gold in the long run due to lost population.
Near the end of my military games, I also often have to use Merchants to keep the economy going in the final 20 or so turns. We might be able to switch from Slavery to Caste at that time, but if we have done to much pop rushing, then we might not have enough extra people to turn into merchants.
As you guys know, my quick domination games utilize caste system. Here are my main concerns about going the slavery route instead:
1) Great Person generation. I make heavy use of Caste in one or two cities to generate a great many Great Person Points. How will we do this if we are in slavery?
2) City Specialization. Our capitol is specialized to generate science, for instance, but it is only effective if we keep the science slider high. I use merchants to do that in Caste, but how will we do it in Slavery?
3) Attacking the AIs early. This is critical if we want to achieve a fast domination, of course. The main way I do this is by minimizing building construction in cities. I build only what is necessary, which outside the core, usually means chopping a courthouse and a barracks: that's it. I elliminate the need for culture buildings by using artists for a few turns. It sounds like we will have to build theatres, at a minimum, if we go with slavery. I know they are cheap, but we will need around 30 of them, so that really adds up.
4) Sustaining the Economy during the Military Push. Failing to do this is the #1 way that I see early military games fail. One of the best ways to sustain the economy is to grow AI cities very quickly after taking them, and maximizing the number of commerce tiles that they work. This is especially important with a Financial civ. If we are pop rushing a lot with slavery, I am afraid we may lose out on too much gold in the long run due to lost population.
Near the end of my military games, I also often have to use Merchants to keep the economy going in the final 20 or so turns. We might be able to switch from Slavery to Caste at that time, but if we have done to much pop rushing, then we might not have enough extra people to turn into merchants.
I have not used either civic to any great extent, so will learn a ton no matter what we do.bradleyfeanor said:
From the discussion so far, Bede said he thought the only benefits we would get from slavery would be in the town south of the capital. Bez also talked about using slavery in captured cities, when we get there. Also, the zero maintenance costs associated with Slavery would a plus.
From what I have read here thus far, it sounds to me as though Caste will be the most useful universally in our empire while Slavery would be more specialized in its usage. So, from my noob perspective, I would say Caste appears to be able to provide the greatest benefit to us as we proceed.
I could be persuaded to change my mind by a great discussion as what I have said is based upon what little I know and on what I have read here.
DJMGator13
Still breathing
I have been using Caste in my practice games. I usually use a chop to rush a quick theater when I go on the warpath later.
I'll get the prompt for the religion change before the civic change and during my test game I think I had to wait 1 turn to make the civic change becasue I was in anarchy from the religion change. I also found that once this change is made the Great People started coming quickly, especially if we push for the Great Library as our next Wonder, but your tech path does not have us heading for that (Monotheism, Math, Monarchy or IW).
Gator's play Bball at 2pm so I won't try to play until after the game.
I'll get the prompt for the religion change before the civic change and during my test game I think I had to wait 1 turn to make the civic change becasue I was in anarchy from the religion change. I also found that once this change is made the Great People started coming quickly, especially if we push for the Great Library as our next Wonder, but your tech path does not have us heading for that (Monotheism, Math, Monarchy or IW).
Gator's play Bball at 2pm so I won't try to play until after the game.
bradleyfeanor
King
DJMGator13 said:
That's because I have been torn on which way to go.
I would like to take as direct a path to Optics as we possibly can in order to know where we stand tech wise with the AIs, and also to pick up as many freebies as possible. We will have to pick up at least one happiness tech (Monarchy or Calendar) before Optics. We will need Alphabet too, of course, but I am not sure if it would be better to go Alphabet/Literature before or afterward. I think whichever player happens to be up will just have to take a look at our cities and see which would be of most value at the time.There isn't a tremendous hurry to get the Great Library, because I think it would be wise to generate at least one priest or engineer before we start cranking out lots of scientists. Getting the National Epic though, would be quite nice.
Here we go with another noob question? Isn't Calendar the obvious choice here as we can get 2 Happiness with Dyes and Incense versus only Wines with Monarchy?bradleyfeanor said:
DJMGator13
Still breathing
leif erikson said:
But Monarchy cost less to research and also gives access to Hereditary Rule (+1 happy per unit in city).
See, I knew there would be a good reason why it wasn't a no-brainer.DJMGator13 said:
Monarchy gets us one happiness per MP, although I'm thinking health will also be a limiting factor until we meet the AI, and maybe until astronomy, but with HR we should be able to get the capital up to 10 pop or so. The main reason I'd like to get monarchy is we're almost there already, having already researched priesthood.
As for slavery. BF, you are aware that building a market lets you run two merchants, correct? The merchants you run with CS should be about enough to offset the medium upkeep cost of the civic as we grow - we're not organized. I'd rather run scientists to get academies and a prophet for a shrine than mess around with merchants. Once we get an academy up in the capital, running scientists there can keep our research up even if we have to reduce the overall rate.
As for the primary benefit of slavery, it is indeed stronger on a water map, but we do have a lot of food bonuses on this one, and not enough health resources yet to fully exploit them just in supporting high population. Look at it this way. The food box takes 22 food to fill, at which point you can trade that full box for 30 hammers. Once you get the granary, it only takes 11 to fill, but you can still trade it for 30, that's almost 3 hammers per food! A pig tile is the equivalent of 18 hammers per turn!
Is my math off here? Even I didn't think it was that good.
As for slavery. BF, you are aware that building a market lets you run two merchants, correct? The merchants you run with CS should be about enough to offset the medium upkeep cost of the civic as we grow - we're not organized. I'd rather run scientists to get academies and a prophet for a shrine than mess around with merchants. Once we get an academy up in the capital, running scientists there can keep our research up even if we have to reduce the overall rate.
As for the primary benefit of slavery, it is indeed stronger on a water map, but we do have a lot of food bonuses on this one, and not enough health resources yet to fully exploit them just in supporting high population. Look at it this way. The food box takes 22 food to fill, at which point you can trade that full box for 30 hammers. Once you get the granary, it only takes 11 to fill, but you can still trade it for 30, that's almost 3 hammers per food! A pig tile is the equivalent of 18 hammers per turn!
Is my math off here? Even I didn't think it was that good.
What are we going to use all those hammers for?
The game plan right now is based on minimal buildings and lots of military. If the plan were the other way around then slavery might be better.
I don't quite get this one.
Just doing a little back o ' the envelope figuring here and I don't see much in the way of health issues.....
The game plan right now is based on minimal buildings and lots of military. If the plan were the other way around then slavery might be better.
Bez said:
I don't quite get this one.Just doing a little back o ' the envelope figuring here and I don't see much in the way of health issues.....
"The game plan right now is based on minimal buildings and lots of military."
Can they swim? If not, some buildings will be necessary, I assure you...
Anyway, neglecting such buildings as granary, lighthouse, and, later, forge, is just dumb, especially with a financial civ. Of course, those hammers can also go to units when the time comes.
Can they swim? If not, some buildings will be necessary, I assure you...
Anyway, neglecting such buildings as granary, lighthouse, and, later, forge, is just dumb, especially with a financial civ. Of course, those hammers can also go to units when the time comes.
