Gator02 - Learning to Walk

[Bezhukov]

I pretty much always play space or a culture win that uses all the culture techs up to Flight/Assembly Line and Radio/Mass Media. I know the latter is suboptimal compared to just turning off research to crank culture early, but I just enjoy all the bells and whistles of the later tech and feel like I'm not getting the full enjoyment out of the game if I stop short of them. Even when going for Domination/Conquest, which I've only actually done once, I do most of my warring with a drafted rifle rush and infantry follow-up, closing with bomber-based battlefield control.

Whatever victory condition we choose, I'd like to get all the tile-juicing techs up to Electricity, Biology, Replaceable Parts, and Communism.

 

[DJMGator13]

I actually wouldn't mind playing to a fastest dom/conquest game. I'd like to explore the military side of the game first. Problem with going the hybrid route is accidentially triggering a dom victory while we are pushing for one of the other VC, especially since we cannot abandon a city.

If everyone has time I wouldn't mind a second game that pushes for space/culture or diplo. I filled in for a player in the late stages of LK108 which was a culture win. The generation of Great Artists and making them specialist was very key in that game. For culture you want to be the founded of 3 religions perferable with 3 cities so that each one can be a holy city.

 

[bradleyfeanor]

I pretty much always play space or a culture win that uses all the culture techs up to Flight/Assembly Line and Radio/Mass Media.

Now I understand why our chosen strategies differ so much. I am exactly the opposite, and usually play for earliest domination or conquest. That means researching the minimum techs needed in order to conquer fast. This makes commerce/research extremely valuable early in the game, but by the end it is very unimportant.

I actually wouldn't mind playing to a fastest dom/conquest game. I'd like to explore the military side of the game first.

Is that the final word on our goal for this game? I'm ok with any of the options we have discussed, just so long as we pick one and stick to it.

If everyone has time I wouldn't mind a second game that pushes for space/culture or diplo....For culture you want to be the founded of 3 religions perferable with 3 cities so that each one can be a holy city.

I have the time currently, but next week I would probably be a bit scarce in the thread. In the culture games I have toyed with thusfar, it seems much better to have 9 cities than 3, to enable 3 cathedrals in each culture city. What is the value of having your culture city be a holy shrine as well?

 

[Bede]

Turn 30 (2800 BC)
Quechua defeats (1.40/2): Barbarian Lion
Quechua defeats (2.00/2): Barbarian Wolf
Dodged two bullets north and south, no sign of human barbarians yet

Turn 31 (2760 BC)

Turn 32 (2720 BC)
Tech learned: Bronze Working
Cuzco grows: 5
Warrior at Cuzco heads east and spots a barbarian village.

Turn 33 (2680 BC)
Tribal village results: warrior. One more sentry for barb watch!
Research begun: Animal Husbandry
Cuzco finishes: Quechua
Take the turn to get Slavery as we can use to whip the settler in a couple of turns, or for the library along with the trees.

Turn 34 (2640 BC)
Cuzco begins: Worker

Turn 35 (2600 BC)
We have hit the happiness limit at Cuzco at pop5 and need an MP to keep it there. We have lots of Calendar luxuries and a Monarchy luxury, but no "free" luxes. The nice thing is that the Calendar luxuries include Dyes so a strong cultural push with lots of actors in the population is not out of reach.

Turn 36 (2560 BC)
While working on Animal Husbandry the worker finishes a mine and starts the road to the marble. The worker-in-training will finish one turn before AH so he gets to round up the pigs.

Turn 37 (2520 BC)

Turn 38 (2480 BC)
Cuzco finishes: Worker
Heads off to the pigpen

The warriors in the field have been cutting slow arcs through the north and the south and we horses, but no Copper. If we had neighbors I would be tempted to switch to Iron Working....

Turn 39 (2440 BC)
Cuzco begins: Settler
Tech learned: Animal Husbandry
Worker at Cuzco rounding up pigs, first worker is roading up to the marble. Start gathering the warriors to the north as a barbarian warrior appears, followed by an archer.

Turn 40 (2400 BC)
Research begun: Writing

Another stab at city placement

Painted Pork will have a nice mix of land based resources available to it while the southern spot could be a commerce and baby maker once it get a border expansion. No sign of any metal anywhere. I would keep a citizen on the hill mine at Cuzco hoping for a Copper pop.

I don't recall if I left the signs and lines in the save. If they annoy anybody just go to the Strategy Layer in Worldview and hit "Delete All". I find they help me keep track of where my settlers are supposed to go...

@brad, I think what 'Gator was getting at was getting the three religions before founding the fourth city.

As for the victory conditions the military ones holds the most interest for me as the management of overseas invasions is always a real challenge. And I think it will take long enough that we can enjoy all the toys as well....

 

[Bezhukov]

My culture wins have been all about commerce and cathedrals (and broadcast towers, Hermitage, etc... culture multipliers, of which cathedrals are the most plentiful), with the emphasis on winning the game at high difficulties over style points or ultra-fast finishes.

That means not necessarily founding any religions (although taking steps to "catch" all seven to get all the cathedrals) or using any great artists (when a city is making 1200 cpt via the culture slider and multipliers, they quickly become superfluous), and maintaining strategic options via a deeper tech push, more emphasis on diplo, including war alliances, and thus more military than a pure culture strategy.

As for quick conquest/domination, in general it is unappealing to me, but it might be good practice to have to figure out how to manage it once.

 

[Bezhukov]

If someone else wants to grab the game, I won't be back until Friday.

 

[DJMGator13]

In the culture games I have toyed with thus far, it seems much better to have 9 cities than 3, to enable 3 cathedrals in each culture city. What is the value of having your culture city be a holy shrine as well?

You can only build the "church" Wonders in the Holy City of that religion. They add a little more culture and add to the generating more Great People. The "church" Wonders can also be rushed with Great Prophets so you don't have to build them by hand. But the “cathedral” equivalent of each religion provides a 50% culture increase, which is where the 9 cities come from. We finished LK108 with our 3 culture cities each producing over 1000 cpt.

Bez beat me to the answer due to my internet dumping me offline.

 

[DJMGator13]

Roster
bradleyfeanor
Gator
Bede - just played, dreaming of pork sandwiches
Bezhukov - switch with leif (can't play until Friday)
leif - Up (then back to Bez)

I have the time currently, but next week I would probably be a bit scarce in the thread.

I was thinking of the second game as or after we wrap up this one, unless everyone has enough time for 2. We could wait until after next week when you have more time.

 

[leif erikson]

OK, Got it for tomorrow evening!

Nice work Bede.

EDIT - I am fine with fastest conquest/domination as well.

 

[bradleyfeanor]

Nice turns, Bede!

A few thoughts on the future and an accompanying map:

I did a little test with our Quechua to make sure they can take out a barb-archer city, and it went very well. Four Quechua promoted with Cover have an excellent chance of destroying three barb archers. Even better, in one of my two test scenarios, two of the archers came out of the city and attacked me while I was fortified on a forest/hill, which left only one archer to kill. I think we should try to exploit this opportunity.

If we post quechua on the three red x’s on the map, we might be able to get the barbs to found cities in the exact locations we want them to (the blue x’s), and prevent them from founding a city where we don’t want it (like hill tops which our quechua could not capture). The barbs tend to choose sites that claim three or more special resources before founding in other areas. The red shading on the map shows where our quechua would prevent a city from appearing.

Two of those locations are not very defensible, of course, and I am sure our quechua would occasionally have to duck into forest for defense and healing, then return. I think it is worth trying to stay in those general areas though, and to be sure that the blue x’s (the prime barb city sites), stay under the fog as much as possible.

There are several other hills that would make good quechua locations after these three, but I didn’t mark them because I think these are the most important. The plain hill north of the marble site, for example, should definitely have a sentry too if we have a quechua available.

I am now leaning toward founding our third city on the green x. This site has several advantages:
1) The city can be founded sooner than the dye site to the north (which we might get barbs to found for us anyway)
2) In around 5 turns we will have writing, which means we can start running scientists for an academy in the capitol after a few settlers are built. During that time the capitol will not be able to work both the pig and the corn, so city 3 could take advantage of that free pig to grow quickly.
3) Since we are founding on a plain hill and have another plain hill and two desert hills to work, the city will be a good hammer producer. We could use that to build a barracks and promoted quechua so that we can take a barb city if it appears.
4) When the city is able to grow beyond 5, it will be able to develop villages that can later be handed over to the capitol. It will also make a good settler/worker producer in the meantime thanks to the pig and the FPs.

If this site does become the location of our third city, the forests marked on the map should be chopped into settler production in the capitol ASAP. Otherwise we would lose one of them and the shields for the other would go to city 3. The forest at the “Crab cake and Fish Fry” location and the one NW of it should be chopped next.

As for the victory conditions the military ones holds the most interest for me as the management of overseas invasions is always a real challenge. And I think it will take long enough that we can enjoy all the toys as well....

Well, that would depend on what you mean by toys. If you mean Grenadiers, catapults, galleys, barracks and courthouses, then yes we will certainly have lots of them. But if we go for the early domination that Gator and Leif last mentioned, we probably won't need any of the buildings that come after the classical age, except perhaps the Hagia Sophia or Versailles wonders. If we catch an AI with its pants down (archer defense), then I doubt we will even build theatres. We will also probably only use the bureaucracy, caste system and theocracy civics, although there is a small chance we may use vassalage near the end of the game.

On Monarch level, we really don't need many techs to conquer the world and support our economy, and building markets, theatres and things like that just delay the victory. All we need is a military tech advantage over the AI and lots of miltary units and workers.

Edit: I think that chopping is a priority over roading to the marble, at least for the present.

 

[leif erikson]

Thanks, I understand what we're trying to do. I have a couple of questions:

1. Worker1, building the road towards the Marble, has 2 turns left to complete the road. It sounds to me as though we want to interupt that and make the move to start chopping. I count 3 turns to the chop site and then another 4 to make the chop. There are 8 turns left before we pop the settler. If we let the road complete, then it is 5 turns to get there and the chop goes to the next settler?

2. Why do you want to chop the tile next to the city site instead of the city site itself? With the chop, the next settler should be right along and so we will lose the hammer when we settle?

3. After the two settlers, do we start a third for the Crab Cake and Fish Fry site? Seems like we'll be in chopping mode and that Settler shouldn't take long either?

4. Then we'll hire Scientists and start a Library, I assume? That should be after my turns, but just in case...

I have been playing some trying to prep for GOTM03. I am finding that the defender, in good terrain, most always seems to have an advantage. In many cases, I wait and allow Barbs to attack me, especially on forested hills or forests. The red X just south of the dyes and pork, is a grassland tile with no cover. Will fortified survive Barb Archers? Perhaps I need to make sure a Quechua with the cover promotion is placed there, if we have one.

 

[bradleyfeanor]

Whew, those are all great questions that I am glad you asked. I gave all sorts of wrong ideas in my post!

I think the worker roading toward the Marble can finish this road since it will save the settler a move in getting to the marble city. I only meant that, rather than continue roading toward the marble, he should start chopping. And the forest two south of him (next to horse) would be a fine one to chop.

By "chopping the forests at city site 3 ASAP", I only meant "chop them before we found city 3". I need to be more accurate in my statements. I think the worker that is pasturing will be able to chop those two forests after he finishes the pasture. That should still be before we have a settler for city 3.

Also, the location for city 3 and the worker actions, quechua locations, etc. are just suggestions. I thing they are good ideas, but I would like to hear what you guys think about them.

I am not sure I understand what you mean when you say, "2. Why do you want to chop the tile next to the city site instead of the city site itself? With the chop, the next settler should be right along and so we will lose the hammer when we settle?"

We need to chop both forests, the one on the city site (which would be lost if we founded the city on the forest) and the one next to it (because we currently need the hammers more for settlers than city 3 would need the hammers for a barracks). Does that cover it, or am I missing the gist of your question?

I think the Fish Fry site is a good choice for city 4.

Once we have the three settlers built and another worker, I would start working on the academy by running 2 scientists and working the corn, wine and FP. The capitol will go into a low productivity mode for 17 turns, but I think it is worth it to get our academy.

One last additional thing: when it is time to research Meditation/Priesthood, I think we should go with Poly/Priesthood instead. I was writing a post that explains why, but it was taking a while. The short of it is that this might allow us to use a Great Scientist toward researching Chemistry instead of Philosophy, the former being much more valuable in a quick military game than the latter. We might never get the opportunity to do that, but I would still like for it to be a possibility.

 

[bradleyfeanor]

ooops, I missed the quechua defense question. What I think I would do, is sit on the grassland tile, but as soon as a barb appears I would hop into one of the forests and allow them to attack. We would only get 5% on our fortification bonus, but the forest should still allow us to win. I probably would not move onto the forest hill unless I was wounded, because that would "uncover" the location where we want the barb city to appear.

 

[leif erikson]

I am not sure I understand what you mean when you say, "2. Why do you want to chop the tile next to the city site instead of the city site itself? With the chop, the next settler should be right along and so we will lose the hammer when we settle?"

It ws clear to me when I wrote it!

What I meant was that, in 8 turns, we will have a settler for the Marble site. Soon after it finishes a chop should complete and so the Settler for city site 3 ought to be available, as most chops yeild nearly enough to make a settler. If we chop the forest that you marked ASAP on the map, I don't think the chop at the city site will be completed before that third settler arrives to build city 3. In my mind, that means we should consider chopping the city site first and then the one next to it to help speed whatever our first build is in city 3. I so love MM!!

I hope that made more sense.

Should we plan to build a Settler for City site 4 after the one for 3?

Your plan of moving into cover should a Barb show near the Grassland makes a lot of sense. Why didn't I think of that?

 

[Bezhukov]

I finally had a chance to play around with the game, and have attached a version where the tech path was mining->bronze->hunting->wheel->AH (4 turns to go). Marble city is settled and has just completed a chop on its worker (3 turns to go, third worker overall), capital has a barracks, and we have some reg and vet quechas running around, as well as one scout (who managed to get only gold from all three villages). Probably could have gone with a third settler instead of the barracks and extra quechas, but played it conservatively. Settled on plains hill, and worked the other plains hill once the mine completed the whole time instead of growing maximally, as I was concerned about overgrowing happiness and wanted to get quechas out to bust fog quickly.

BTW, also tried religious path, but settling in place and researching Meditiation did not secure Buddhism (missed it by a turn).

Bradley's approach leverages the financial trait to gain an early mil/civic tech advantage, as well as a more valuable Oracle (Fin/Industrious is the ideal trait combo for the Oracle gambit), and greater unit support capacity, at the expense of the fastest possible expansion.

The approach I advocated makes use of the financial trait to recover more readily the costs of fast expansion, with a later payoff.

The former seems better for pangea, the latter for continents.

 

[bradleyfeanor]

Soon after it finishes a chop should complete and so the Settler for city site 3 ought to be available, as most chops yeild nearly enough to make a settler. If we chop the forest that you marked ASAP on the map, I don't think the chop at the city site will be completed before that third settler arrives to build city 3. In my mind, that means we should consider chopping the city site first and then the one next to it to help speed whatever our first build is in city 3.

It actually takes a bit more than 3 chops to finish a settler at Normal game speed, so I think we will be okay. But chopping the city tile first is a good idea just to be safe.

@Bezhukov: Thanks for doing that, I'm off to compare your start now...

You said you missed Buddhism by a turn. Did you work the wine tile for the extra commerce and research it in 8 turns as opposed to the 10 it would take by not working the wine tile? I don't think the AI can get it in less than 8 turns, and it usually takes them 9.

 

[DJMGator13]

The former seems better for pangea, the latter for continents.

I'm not sure how the different map types come into play. Wouldn't the former (Brad's) be better in situation where you are alone while the latter (Bez's) would be better with some neighbors where you are in a race for resources?

How would capturing a city early affect the 2 plans? If we can capture a city faster under Brad's plan wouldn't that make up the leveraged financial impact. We'd gain a city without having to slow the growth of one of ours.

 

[Bezhukov]

"You said you missed Buddhism by a turn. Did you work the wine tile for the extra commerce and research it in 8 turns as opposed to the 10 it would take by not working the wine tile? I don't think the AI can get it in less than 8 turns, and it usually takes them 9."

Oops. Of course then you grow painfully slowly. I was building a quecha with that start instead of a worker, as worker techs would be delayed, so I was working the corn to grow to 2 ASAP. Hinduism first might be a good idea as well, as I'd really like to settle the capital in place, work both plains hills, the flood plain and wine (cottages), and the food bonus tiles, which would require religion happiness. EDIT: can't reach the pigs from there, so less tempting...

"How would capturing a city early affect the 2 plans? If we can capture a city faster under Brad's plan wouldn't that make up the leveraged financial impact. We'd gain a city without having to slow the growth of one of ours."

That was why I think Brad's is better on Pangea, where you're more likely to find a juicy target nearby and early. On continents, you don't want to cannibalize your continental partners too early or you'll fall behind on tech vs. the other continent, but you do want the dominant position, hence the importance of grabbing the good sites quickly. If you're alone, I believe more than one good commerce city is required to wage intercontinental war, so you might as well get four started expeditiously in order to specialize effectively.

 

[leif erikson]

OK, ten turns completed. Our city is built on the Marble and our third settler is on site 3 ready to found.

Turn Log:
Turn 40 – 2400 BC
Clark kills a Barb Archer that attacks him up north.
2 Barb Warriors are headed for Adam.

Turn 41 – 2360 BC
To keep the theme going, rename a Quechua Erikson, and begin moving him north from his spot near the capital.
Promote Clark with cover and heal.
Move Adam to suggested red X to the north.

Turn 42 – 2320 BC
Worker1 moves 2 tiles south after finishing the road.
Erikson continues north.
Adam fortifies on the hill.

Adam defeats a Barb Warrior that attacks him.

Turn 43 – 2280 BC
Just realized we don’t need Erikson up north, so move him south again.
5-turns remain on the Settler and we can chop in 3, so Worker1 chops.

A Barb Warrior moves next to the Marble tile in the forest near Desota.

Turn 44 – 2240 BC
Adam heals and fortifies.
Desota fortifies.
Worker2 to the city 3 site.
Clark to his site near the dyed piggies.

Desota defends, killing a Barb Warrior.

Turn 45 – 2200 BC
Clark fortifies.
Worker2 chops.
Worker1 completes chop, Settler due next turn.

We discover Writing and start on Polytheism, due in 7 turns.
Settler is born in Cuzco (well, where alse?)
Start another Settler, due in 6 but will come earlier with a nice chop.

Turn 46 – 2160 BC
Worker1 moves towards the southern forests needing a chop.
Settler heads for the Marble.

Turn 47 – 2120 BC
Settler founds the town of Tiwanaku and starts a Library, due in 23 turns.
Worker2 completes chop and settler now due in 3 turns.
We’re losing 3 GPT but Poly completes in 5 and we have 78, so we keep researching at 100%.

Turn 48 – 2080 BC
Worker1 chops while Erikson keeps a watchful eye.
Worker2 moves SE to prepare for next forest chop.

A Barb Archer shows up on the hill 4 tiles east of Cuzco. He’s eyeing the corn, I think.

Turn 49 – 2040 BC
Worker2 begins chop.
Wake Quechua in the capital and move 1 tile NE. It makes Cuzco unhappy.

A Settler is born in Cuzco, start a Library.
The Barb Archer disappears to the east.

Turn 50 – 2000 BC
Settler moves to city site 3.

I have left the Quechua NE of Cuzco unmoved so next player can decide how he wants to play it. There is a Barb Archer off to the east on one of the three dark tiles around the plains/hill.

Polytheism due in 2 turns at –3 GPT.

 

[leif erikson]

Hope Polytheism is what we were heading for? Couldn't remember and checked the thread and all that was mentioned was heading for Priesthood and Brad mentioned Poly may be better than Meditation.

A screenie of our island.