Gator02 - Learning to Walk

"1) What "learning to walk" is all about is learning to achieve control of the game, which is the path to any victory condition."

The surest path to controlling CivIV that I've found is to have the AI eating out of your hand diplomatically. The coin of that realm is tech. We're financial. We can either bludgeon the AI to death with hundreds of grenadiers or trade our advanced techs produced by our trait advantage to convince the AI to do it for us.
 
I've been reading this thread for the couple of hours or more, (stopping only to pop back to the strategy forum to pass on my infinite wisdom :) )

I have to say that the disagreements between bradley and bez will help people learn more about playing cIV than if everyone just agreed all the time.

There's been some superb discussion and it seems to me that everyone playing this game (and lurking) can learn a lot from what has been discussed so far, and we will all no doubt learn a heck of a lot more during the rest of the game.

Thanks for the best SG on civfanatics. :goodjob:
 
Bezhukov said:
The surest path to controlling CivIV that I've found is to have the AI eating out of your hand diplomatically. The coin of that realm is tech. We're financial. We can either bludgeon the AI to death with hundreds of grenadiers or trade our advanced techs produced by our trait advantage to convince the AI to do it for us.
Perhaps a combination is more in order. As I have said, I'm still learning warmongering. Is it possible to get a large civ to war with a smaller civ and take a number of his cities, hurtung his economy enough to allow us to attack his core to break his back? :crazyeye:

I have found that when I can entice another civ to join me in war, the one we're attacking generally pays more attention to the AI than to me. ;)
 
Bez, I really wish you would just give turning research off a try. I promise we can go all the way through the tech tree in the next game if you like, and I won’t say a word about it.

Many of the decisions I made on my turns were based on the assumption that we would be turning research off at some point. In other words, these decisions were good ones if we will be turning off research, but they are bad ones if we don’t. Gator’s earlier post made it sound like we would be “playing it by ear” as to when we would be turning research off, but I didn't think not turning it off ever was even under consideration. I did not see Bez’s comments before I played my turns. (This is one of the reasons why I am always talking about how it is so important to set a plan and stick to it, by the way :mad: ).

A few of the more notable decisions that are good if tuning off research but bad if we don’t include the following:

1) Choosing not to build the colossus. If we head straight to astronomy after lit, then the colossus would go obsolete in around 20 turns, so no reason to build it. If we go with Bez's longer tech path, then building the colossus would have been a good idea.

2) Building mines on the river hills around Cori and not windmills. Without replaceable parts, windmills are pretty lousy (grass/river/hills yield 2f, 1h, 3c). We are quickly reaching the point in the game where commerce will become less valuable and our island is very short on hills, so we need hammers desperately for boats and military units. And we need them soon. The only two cities we have that can generate a lot of hammers are Cori and Huamanga (our new horse city).

3) I did not found Huamanga on the horse, because the only way founding a city on the horse will ever generate more shields than a city founded 1W of the horse is with biology. (Ie, even if everything is irrigated, a city founded on the horse can only work 6 mines before biology). I think the tile 1W is a better location because it allows the city to work the horse tile (2f, 3h, 1c) which will give it good production while not slowing growth.

My Notes:

150bc Switch Cuzco from settler to Missionary for a turn and MM to work pig so it will grow this turn.
Machu could whip a courthouse right now (3 pop for 120 hammers), but I think I would rather wait and use that cities whip for a forge. Speaking of forges, I MM a few cities for commerce so that we will get Metal Casting next turn rather than in 2 turns. It seems a good idea since Tiwan and Machu could both start building forges next turn.
125 Tiwan gets Aqueduct and starts a forge with that yummy 32 hammer overflow that Lief left me. Also abandons a cottage to start running a priest. We now have 1 million people in the empire. Cuzco switches back to building a settler and citizens return to working cottages. Machu takes his pig back and switches from Courthouse to Forge (the courthouse can wait because expenses in that city are currently only 2gpt). A worker near Cori jumps onto a jungle hill: he must have been on goto orders. I would rather him have mined a river/hill or cleared the other dye tile before beginning such a long term project.
100 Barb ax dies attacking our ax in the jungle. Promotes us. I would like to switch Olly to the Great Lighthouse as Bez suggested, but it just got built by China.
50 Cori gets Courthouse starts library. Temporarily switch Cuzco to Parthenon in order to get the hammers from the forest being chopped.
25 Whip the forge in Machu (2 pop for 90 hammers)
1ad Machu gets Forge, start worker. Interrupt worker chopping forest N of Tiwan. Forge will be done next turn, so might as well come back to finish the chop after that.
25ad Settler complete in Cuzco, start Missionary and give it back the pig so it can grow to size 10 in 3 turns. Tiwan finishes forge, starts Courthouse. I considered starting the HG or Colossus but dismissed them both for now. I decided to wait until after the courthouse to build the HG because I didn’t want to mix too many Engineer points in with our Priest points and miss our chance for an early shrine. Whip Library in Cori (1 pop for 60 hammers).
50 Machu gets worker, starts Courthouse. Cori gets Library, starts Forge. Chop another forest into the Parthenon. Whip Library in Olly (1 pop, 60 hammers)
75 Olly gets library starts worker. Cuzco will grow to the happy limit next turn so Machu gets his pig back. Found Huamanga.
100 Holy smokes: the Indians just got destroyed! :eek: :lol:

Optics due in 3 turns. Contact with AIs due shortly thereafter! The river cottages around Cuzco are done. It is now making 96bpt at 80% (although it can do 120bpt if we go to 100% science).

For anyone who might be interested, founding Huamanga increased out total expenses from 37 to 52, so the city is currently costing us 15gpt.

Autolog notes:

Spoiler :
Turn 109 (150 BC)
Cuzco begins: Confucian Missionary
Tech learned: Metal Casting
Cuzco grows: 9
Tiwanaku grows: 7
Tiwanaku finishes: Aqueduct
Corihuayrachina grows: 5
Corihuayrachina's borders expand

Turn 110 (125 BC)
Research begun: Machinery
Tiwanaku begins: Forge
Tiwanaku begins: The Hanging Gardens
Tiwanaku begins: Forge
Cuzco begins: Confucian Missionary
Machu Picchu begins: Forge
Ollantaytambo grows: 5
Axeman defeats (1.25/5): Barbarian Axeman

Turn 111 (100 BC)
Machu Picchu grows: 8

Turn 112 (75 BC)
Ollantaytambo grows: 6
Corihuayrachina finishes: Courthouse

Turn 113 (50 BC)
Cuzco begins: Worker
Cuzco begins: The Parthenon
Cuzco begins: The Parthenon
Ollantaytambo begins: Worker
Corihuayrachina grows: 6

Turn 114 (25 BC)
Machu Picchu finishes: Forge
Ollantaytambo grows: 7

Turn 115 (0 AD)
Machu Picchu begins: Worker
Tiwanaku begins: The Hanging Gardens
Cuzco finishes: Settler
Tiwanaku's borders expand
Tiwanaku finishes: Forge

Turn 116 (25 AD)
Tiwanaku begins: The Hanging Gardens
Tiwanaku begins: Courthouse
Corihuayrachina begins: Forge
Corihuayrachina begins: Axeman
Tech learned: Machinery
Machu Picchu finishes: Worker
Corihuayrachina finishes: Library

Turn 117 (50 AD)
Research begun: Optics
Tiwanaku grows: 8
Ollantaytambo grows: 7
Ollantaytambo finishes: Library
Corihuayrachina grows: 6

Turn 118 (75 AD)
Ollantaytambo begins: Confucian Temple
Ollantaytambo begins: Settler
Cuzco begins: Confucian Missionary
Ollantaytambo begins: Worker
Huamanga founded
Huamanga begins: Granary
Cuzco grows: 10
Machu Picchu grows: 7


Notes for the next player:

I would recommend keeping our units out of the fog to the north. We actually want barbs appearing in order to promote our axmen. I left the axman’s promotion for a later date. It would be nice to get City Raider I if we can, but if a barb ax appears you may want to go ahead and promote with Shock.
Work 3 (by Cuzco) was going to help develop Huamanga. The worker stacked with him was going to keep cottaging around Cuzco, starting with the grass tile that Olly shares with Cuzco (Olly would work the tile until it becomes a hamlet, then Cuzco would take it)
Work 4 is sitting on top of a forest that will chop in 1 turn (it was prechopped).
I was going to go ahead and build the HG in Tiwanaku and the Parthenon in our capitol.
I wouldn’t trade for HR or Archery with the AIs because they are useless techs for us. I also wouldn’t trade for Meditation.

The Save
 
"1) Choosing not to build the colossus. If we head straight to astronomy after lit, then the colossus would go obsolete in around 20 turns, so no reason to build it. If we go with Bez's longer tech path, then building the colossus would have been a good idea."

We don't build the Colossus because we're likely to need ocean-going trade routes sooner rather than later if we're isolated, and these require astronomy. It's highly likely that we are isolated, BTW, or we would have had AI visitors by now.

"2) Building mines on the river hills around Cori and not windmills. Without replaceable parts, windmills are pretty lousy (grass/river/hills yield 2f, 1h, 3c). We are quickly reaching the point in the game where commerce will become less valuable and our island is very short on hills, so we need hammers desperately for boats and military units. And we need them soon. The only two cities we have that can generate a lot of hammers are Cori and Huamanga (our new horse city)."

Well, you want hammers, nothing better than factories and coal plants for that.

"3) I did not found Huamanga on the horse, because the only way founding a city on the horse will ever generate more shields than a city founded 1W of the horse is with biology. (Ie, even if everything is irrigated, a city founded on the horse can only work 6 mines before biology). I think the tile 1W is a better location because it allows the city to work the horse tile (2f, 3h, 1c) which will give it good production while not slowing growth."

With all our dry land, biology would be a huge boost. I have difficulty seeing how you play domination without State Property to reduce the huge maintenance costs.

I'm sorry, Brad, we're just playing different games here. I can see stopping short of space techs when going for dom, and maybe forgoing mills for mines, at least short term, but not only is the approach you're advocating at odds with my understanding of the spirit of the game, I can't even see where its the optimal approach for the win condition the team has chosen.

Maybe for a mind-numbingly boring small pangea, but on this map?

I do see now why you're so big on burning specialists for techs. :lol:
 
Bezhukov said:
Brad, we're just playing different games here.

I know we are. I'm sorry my strategy is so "alien" that it makes this SG less fun for you. The way I play domination and conquest games is definitely not something that would appeal to a builder.
 
brad,
A quick question from a very interested lurker (read all 16 pages today!)

What is your reason for turning off research at chemistry when steel is next on the tech tree, giving you cannons and ironworks?
 
And drydocks, for godsakes! Talk about hammers! Heroic Epics for ship production in every city!
 
If anyone here is familiar with bridge, Brad is playing duplicate, while I'm playing contract. BTW, duplicate is what is used for competition, and is prefered by advanced players, while the typical casual game is contract. Hence, my understanding that "learning to walk" would more resemble the latter than the former.
 
Bezhukov said:
If anyone here is familiar with bridge, Brad is playing duplicate, while I'm playing contract. BTW, duplicate is what is used for competition, and is prefered by advanced players, while the typical casual game is contract. Hence, my understanding that "learning to walk" would more resemble the latter than the former.


Learning to walk in cIV takes more than one game. The depth of gameplay is massive in comparison with civ3.

Brad appears to be taking the team through one particular strategy. In the follow up game you could then take the team through a completely different strategy.

That way the team (and the lurkers!) will learn different playing styles and alternative strategies, which can only improve everyone's gameplay.

You and brad clearly have a lot to learn from each other, so I hope you're not thinking about jumping ship on this game, that would be a real shame.

I'm curious about brads reason for stopping research at chemistry because I personally wouldn't do it. He may teach me something new with what he has planned, that's what this SG is all about.
I would certainly move on to steel, and probably even rifling and artillery. The early wars are possible without zero research, especially with chopped courthouses and merchants.

But then again what do I know, on page one brad said emperor is easy, but I'm an emperor player not ready to move up yet. :(
 
One reason I can see for turning research off prior to Steel is that it cost 4186 compared to Chemistry’s 2691. To use a C3 analogy these techs would be in different ages. If we are already technologically advanced we may not need that additional level of power.

Here's a look at the Stats page.

[URL=http://imageshack.us][/URL]

We have almost twice the population on the 2nd place civ and are producing the most gold, yet we are 3rd in production. I'm not exactly sure how the Soldiers number relates to the old Strong, Average, Weak comparisons from C3 but we may find a surprise when we meet whoever just eliminated India, we show 93k versus 229k. Considering we have not concentrated on military I'm surprised we're as close to the rival average.

Another observation is that we are 1st in pop yet 4th in land area. Does the AI build cities spaced out further than we did or do they have a larger number of smaller cities?

----------------------------------------------------------------

Couple questions I have after looking at the save.

Is there value (and how much) in cIV to waiting to trade techs until you know several AI’s? In my test games that is what I have done.

We have not switched to Hereditary Rule yet, are we waiting for something better (it will add 1gpt to our expenses) but give us MP (+1 happy) ability?
 
One reason I can see for turning research off prior to Steel is that it cost 4186 compared to Chemistry’s 2691. To use a C3 analogy these techs would be in different ages. If we are already technologically advanced we may not need that additional level of power.


It's true that there is a big difference in the beakers required from chemistry to steel, but I doubt that it would take many turns to research by that stage of the game.
This game obviously requires a large navy, so stopping one tech before drydocks is something I wouldn't consider doing myself, then add in the ironworks for pumping out the grenadiers.
I would have thought that researching that one extra tech would see quite a lot of benefits.

But, as I said before, I'm sure brad is going to teach me a thing or two that I never would have considered. Hopefully making me a better player in the process.
 
PublicEnemy said:
brad,
A quick question from a very interested lurker (read all 16 pages today!)

What is your reason for turning off research at chemistry when steel is next on the tech tree, giving you cannons and ironworks?

I'm glad you are enjoying the thread! :D

If you want to play it safe, then you should research steel every time. As you and Bez say, it is awesome: cannons cut through the AI like butter and drydocks are fantastic for ship production.

The only reason I sometimes choose not to research steel, is because in some situations it enables me to win a few turns earlier. Here is a possible scenario:

In around 35 turns we have finished astronomy and are well on our way to Chemistry and Grenadiers. We are attacking one of the AIs with Macemen and catapults. Over the next 40 turns, we are constantly sending more catapults and macemen to the new continent and our expenses will be rising due to taking more cities and unit costs. The only way we will be maintaining research is by plundering the AIs cities.

Lets say we have around 25 macemen over there at the end of that 40 turns (around 1250ad). That is also around the time we will finish Chemistry...and we now have 25 macemen that need to be upgraded to Grenadiers, which will cost more than 5,000 gold. The only way to pay for all those upgrades is to turn off research. In the time it would take us to research steel (a very expensive tech at 4,186 beakers as Gator says), we could make about 3,000 gold toward those upgrades (and that doesn't inlude the revenues from plunder).

Assuming we have outresearched the AIs (which is a pretty safe assumption on Monarch level), the best unit he will have for defense is longbowmen, with maybe a musket here or there. Our grenadiers will be more than capable of wiping them out, which means that cannons will not be needed. If we delay our upgrades to research Steel instead, we will essentially be delaying our victory by a good many turns.

Everyone should keep in mind that when I say "turn research off at Chemistry," that is just a hopeful goal. I use such milestones in order to keep the game focused. However, we may go ahead and research steel, printing press, or other techs depending on how the game turns out.

For instance, it may be that we will only have around 10 macemen in the field when we get Chemistry and our expenses are still manageable. If that happens, then there would be no reason for us not to go ahead and get Steel. Or, we may get an Engineer, which would make Steel much cheaper to research.

Bezhukov said:
Hence, my understanding that "learning to walk" would more resemble the latter than the former.

I openly admit that the strategy I am putting forward does not fit with the threads title. When Gator recruited me, however, I got lots of feedback similar to this:

leif erikson said:
My focus is to become a better player for GOTM

So I guess my goal from day one has not been "Learning to Walk", but rather "Learning to be Competitive in the GoTM." The two main reasons I signed up, in fact, were to improve my own competitive game and to help others improve theirs. I'm sorry if it seems I have "hijacked" the purpose of the SG, but that is the assumption I have been working under since before we started.

Gator said:
Is there value (and how much) in cIV to waiting to trade techs until you know several AI’s? In my test games that is what I have done.

We have not switched to Hereditary Rule yet, are we waiting for something better (it will add 1gpt to our expenses) but give us MP (+1 happy) ability?

The only value I know of in waiting to trade techs is that it will often open up 2-, 3-, or 4-for-1 deals. I don't think it decreases the value of the AIs techs like it did in civ3 (but I am not 100% sure about it). That being said, I usually wait until I know several AIs too.

I never considered switching to HR during my turns because the capitol only just reached the happy limit. I guess that is something we do need to discuss in upcoming turns...

What do you guys think we can gain by switching to HR?

Edited due to a few mismatched quote authors.
 
Oh my...I just noticed that 18/12 Import/Export ratio on our top rival (see Gator's post). I think that is a good indication that we are dealing with a mega-continent, and probably a great big mass of heathen Buddhists. I hope we don't have to drop out of Confucianism in order to trade, but it is possible.

You are right about the "rival average Soldiers" Gator. It is encouraging, as is the rival average on GNP and crop yield. That does signify weakness, at least for now. Our focus on early domination may pay off well: if we can strike early and hard, it will take hundreds of years off our victory date.

Perhaps we can also make the big AI our pet pit bull and reach domination by picking off the weaklings.
 
"Another observation is that we are 1st in pop yet 4th in land area. Does the AI build cities spaced out further than we did or do they have a larger number of smaller cities?"

Yes.

"Is there value (and how much) in cIV to waiting to trade techs until you know several AI’s? In my test games that is what I have done."

The price goes down if a tech is more widely known. I'm pretty sure contact with several civs also brings prices down. It also helps to make sure trades are worth it, as you will eventually hit the "we fear you are becoming too advanced" limit.

"We have not switched to Hereditary Rule yet, are we waiting for something better (it will add 1gpt to our expenses) but give us MP (+1 happy) ability?"

My guess is that not being spiritual, we were waiting for a double switch to avoid too many anarchies. Anything else good coming up? A trade for Theology may be available in the next 20-30.

"it enables me to win a few turns earlier"

This is what I mean by "playing duplicate". In duplicate bridge, its often the best play to take a risk for an overtrick, which gives the player a chance to get the top score compared to the other players playing the same hands, whereas contract features "safety plays" to guard against poor distribution of the cards.

The fun of Civ for me, at least until the basics of the game are mastered, is figuring out the strategies that are most likely to produce victory. Earlier is nice, but not the most important for me.

"our expenses will be rising due to taking more cities and unit costs."

Nothing like State Property to cut expenses dramatically. Oh, and it also cranks hammers.

"and we now have 25 macemen that need to be upgraded to Grenadiers, which will cost more than 5,000 gold."

So, you turn down research to raise cash (you can also sell techs, pillage towns, etc) until you have what you need. That's no reason to plan never to research again. Especially when grabbing Astronomy early also gives us access to early observatories. I also find upgrading non-advanced obsolete units to be a waste. Just use them for backup while producing better units. Hopefully we'll have loads of city raider maces to make grenadiers, but I'm sure there will also be other promotions in there that are not so urgent to upgrade, as they can just be produced.

If we get to rifling, we can set up a city with Globe Theatre to draft one a turn. Then we're good.

"I'm sorry if it seems I have "hijacked" the purpose of the SG, but that is the assumption I have been working under since before we started."

No, it's been clear since the beginning that I was the only one not already on your page. Which is fine, I'm not mad about it, it's just clear that we have different goals, which was why I offered to resign.

I'm not big on domination, but I'm fine with going along with that as it is a victory condition, so clearly part of the game. What I don't believe is part of the game, and is in fact a holdover from CivIII, is planning to stop research altogether. Suspending it to raise cash, fine, but not quitting altogether. I don't believe the game should be played that way and I'm entirely uninterested in promoting it.
 
So I guess you weren't interested in whipping the Great Lighthouse in Ollan? Or did an AI already grab it? The GL is very powerful with early astronomy (I believe that ocean-going trade routes are more valuable).

Update: Sorry, missed this in the turnlog.
 
Bezhukov said:
So I guess you weren't interested in whipping the Great Lighthouse in Ollan? Or did an AI already grab it? The GL is very powerful with early astronomy (I believe that ocean-going trade routes are more valuable).
China built it in 100BC, according to his turn log. ;)

And BTW Brad, sorry about the goto order on the worker. :rolleyes:

EDIT - Remove stupid question, which I just answered myself... :rolleyes:
 
Brad said:
What do you guys think we can gain by switching to HR?

Based on the tech path we intend to research, we won't gain another government civic other than HR. Is there a limit to how many units can act as MP in a city? This would be a good use for our older units instead of upgrading them. Since we are so close to meeting the neighbors it may be good to hold off on becoming HR until we've had a chance to pickup some other techs (see next question).

Another civic question: when we start gearing up for war will we switch to Vassalage (req. Feudalism) and Theoracy (req. Theology)? Combine these with barracks and the new units will start with +8 experience points (if they are all cumulative effect), thats one promotion in hand and another one after a few battles.
 
I'd like to hold off on vassalage until we snag astronomy. Also it might be handy to "catch" a few more religions before we go all out to war, which theocracy prevents, and free religion may open up some trades for us which would also be difficult due to religious conflicts otherwise. Long term, I'm thinking PS, vassalage, CS, state property, and theocracy, with nationalism at some point to draft a bunch of rifles (maybe while we're in free market waiting for state property, or after capturing the pyramids).
 
DJMGator13 said:
Based on the tech path we intend to research, we won't gain another government civic other than HR. Is there a limit to how many units can act as MP in a city? This would be a good use for our older units instead of upgrading them. Since we are so close to meeting the neighbors it may be good to hold off on becoming HR until we've had a chance to pickup some other techs (see next question).

Another civic question: when we start gearing up for war will we switch to Vassalage (req. Feudalism) and Theoracy (req. Theology)? Combine these with barracks and the new units will start with +8 experience points (if they are all cumulative effect), thats one promotion in hand and another one after a few battles.

AFAIK, there is no limit on MPs. I agree that you should wait until we meet the AIs before changing civics. We may be able to pick up a happiness resource. After we meet the AIs we will just have to play it by ear. If we reach a point where 2 or more of our cities could benefit from the switch to HR then it is probably a good idea to go ahead and switch...unless another civic we want to grab will be available soon.

Also, we may well gain access to other government civics (like police state) via the pyramids.

Re: Vassalage. I don't recommend using it this game, except perhaps way down the road. The XPs are cumulative, but Theocracy alone is enough to get us two promotions (three with our Combat I for being Aggressive). Going from 6 XP to 8 is nice, but it would be costly for us. With our capitol being the commerce powerhouse that it is, we will have to have a TON of units before vassalage would be a better financial choice than bureaucracy.

Bezhukov said:
Also it might be handy to "catch" a few more religions before we go all out to war, which theocracy prevents

I would definitely advise against waiting too long to switch to theocracy. The most important units we build this game will be our initial assault force, and we need to build those units before we get Astronomy. The 1 extra promotion we gain from Theocracy will be huge in reducing casualties. The first battle that 90% of our units fight will be against a unit fortified in a city. If we are fighting with Macemen, that one extra promotion will essentially give them an attack value of 12.4 instead of 10.4 (City Raider II promotion vs. CR I). It will also be extremely useful for our catapults: they can start with accuracy, which will allow them to knock out the defenses of the cities much faster.
 
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