Gator02 - Learning to Walk

[Bezhukov]

Good point. I was actually thinking of trying to trade for theology when we make contact, going to theocracy/HR for troop training, then switching out of theocracy temporarily for a trading round about the time we snag astronomy.

 

[Bezhukov]

Gator, could we get a roster update pls?

 

[leif erikson]

Good point. I was actually thinking of trying to trade for theology when we make contact, going to theocracy/HR for troop training, then switching out of theocracy temporarily for a trading round about the time we snag astronomy.

If we can't find a trade for Theology, we can have it in 4 turns if we need to research it.

I have not used Theocracy much. When in Theocracy, is it more difficult to trade?

After the Courthouse in Tiwanaku, if we start a Galley won't it change it to Caravel upon the discovery of Optics? I just checked the civlopedia and was surprised to see that a Galley can only upgrade to a Galleon or a Frigate? So, perhaps this won't work.

 

[DJMGator13]

I had to go back to page 12 to find the last roster.

Roster
bradleyfeanor - just played and drinking more wine, probably reading a book too
Gator - Up - will start tonight
Bede - on deck
Bezhukov - playing bridge
leif - building ships as any good viking should, but can't determine what to build

 

[DJMGator13]

Quick question:

Cuzco is size 10 and at the happiness limit, but it is still growing. I don't see any other luxes to hook up and we have no gold, silver or gems to add happiness from a forge. So if we build a forge there it will put us over the happiness limit before it grows to size 11. Should I delay growth, so we don't create an angry citizen?

 

[Bezhukov]

Forges give an unhealthy, not unhappy.

Theocracy only impedes trading in that it requires we have a state religion, which is likely to be different than the religion of other states, since we've been isolated.

Cuzco needing happiness might be a good reason to go with HR, or to grab currency to get extra happiness from market resources. Do we have drama yet? That would give us an extra happy with the (very cheap) theaters, as well as doubling culture slider happiness.

 

[Methos]

lurker's comment: I believe Gator was mentioning the happiness gained from the forge due to Gems, Gold, and Silver.

 

[Bezhukov]

"lurker's comment: I believe Gator was mentioning the happiness gained from the forge due to Gems, Gold, and Silver."

"So if we build a forge there it will put us over the happiness limit before it grows to size 11."

Building a forge will not do this. We need to keep it at 10 until something changes though. This may involve letting Cuzco build us another worker/settler next, or letting Macchu have the pig, etc, etc...

 

[DJMGator13]

Methos is correct. I was concerned that if we let Cuzco grow it will exceed the happiness limit.

Thanks Bez, I'll adjust it so slow/stop the growth.

 

[leif erikson]

Yes, and Bez is correct as well. If you build a Forge, Cuzco will start using food because of unhealthiness. We are at both the health limit and the happiness limit. Cuzco doesn't have an Aqueduct yet, so the health limit can be raised.

I'll attach a screenie of Cuzco.

 

[Methos]

If you build a Forge, Cuzco will start using food because of unhealthiness. We are at both the health limit and the happiness limit.

lurker's comment: True, but also notice from the pic that Cuzco is earning +3 fpt. The forge will cause the city to earn a -1 fpt due to the unhealthiness. In other words Cuzco will still be at +2 fpt even with the unhealthiness. Being unhealthy is not as negative as being over the happiness limit.

 

[Bezhukov]

We would do well to find a way to get Cuzco working three more towns in an expeditious manner.

 

[leif erikson]

lurker's comment: True, but also notice from the pic that Cuzco is earning +3 fpt. The forge will cause the city to earn a -1 fpt due to the unhealthiness. In other words Cuzco will still be at +2 fpt even with the unhealthiness. Being unhealthy is not as negative as being over the happiness limit.

Yes, you're right. We can build the Forge and maintain the unhealthiness. But we can also correct for it once the Forge is complete.

I just wanted to be clear as we discussed it.

@Bez - If we want to do that, then we need both HR and an Aqueduct?

 

[DJMGator13]

Summary: No contact yet, but we are close (see pics below). We lost out on the Parthenon build but bankrolled 350 in gold, we’re also close to completing both the HG and the GL. No barb activity.

Turn 119 (100 AD)
Gator: Cuzco is still growing but is currently at happiness limit
Cuzco finishes: Confucian Missionary
Tiwanaku finishes: Courthouse
Christianity founded in a distant land

Turn 120 (125 AD)
Tiwanaku begins: The Hanging Gardens

Turn 121 (150 AD)
Gator: I mm Cuzco to stop growth (actually at -fpt) and pick up 3 turns on Parthenon
Gator: Should be able to complete parthenon prior to city losing a pop, will reevaluate all cities then
Tech learned: Optics
Ollantaytambo finishes: Worker

Turn 122 (175 AD)
Research begun: Alphabet
Ollantaytambo begins: Caravel
Huamanga begins: Caravel
Corihuayrachina begins: Caravel
Gator: Start 3 caravels - need to adjust sci down to 70%, we are currently at -4gpt with only 23 in the bank
Confucianism has spread: Huamanga
Machu Picchu finishes: Courthouse

Turn 123 (200 AD)
Machu Picchu begins: Caravel
Ollantaytambo grows: 8
Corihuayrachina grows: 7

Turn 124 (225 AD)
Gator: Turn research back up to 80% we're at +0gpt - Alpha still in 1 turn
Gator: Not sure how I missed this, but Olly now has 1 unhappy citizen but is not set to grow for 3 more turns, so I poprush the caravel for 60 hammers costs us 2 pop
Gator: mm Olly to the plain cottage and hire a scientist, this slows growth to 9 turns since we are at its happiness limit
Huamanga begins: Granary
Gator: After the mm'g we are at -2gpt, I'll leave it for now
Tech learned: Alphabet
Ollantaytambo finishes: Caravel

Turn 125 (250 AD)
Research begun: Literature
Ollantaytambo begins: Confucian Temple
Gator: Lower sci back to 70% at +9gpt
Corihuayrachina finishes: Caravel
Huamanga grows: 2

Turn 126 (275 AD)
Gator: We were 2 turns from completing the Parthenon
Gator: Our 2nd Caravel completes (thanks to a chop) and starts off NW
Tech learned: Literature
Tiwanaku grows: 9
Machu Picchu finishes: Caravel

Turn 127 (300 AD)
Research begun: Astronomy
Cuzco begins: The Great Library
Machu Picchu begins: Lighthouse
Gator: Our 3rd caravel is built, oh yeah, I mm'd Cuzco off of starvation last turn and picked up more commerce, since we lost the Parthenon
Gator: Sci back to 80% we're at -3gpt with 415 in the bank - Astronomy in 18 turns
Gator: I mm'd Cuzco again, knocking 4 turns off the completion of Great Library but slowing research by 2 turns
Machu Picchu grows: 8

Turn 128 (325 AD)

Turn 129 (350 AD)

-----------------------------------------

Some city management notes:
1) Watch growth
2) GL in Cuzco in 10 turns, there is a chop due in 3 to speed it along
3) HG in Tiwanaku in 4 turns
4) Olly, I just set it back to grow, since the happiness limit will take 1 more
5) Cori, could start working the grass cottage but that would slow the forge by a turn
6) Huam is working the horse for the extra hammer to sped up the granary, the worker is cottaging the 2nd FP

The Save

Sailing the seas

 

[leif erikson]

Nice work Gator, I think you're getting the hang of this!!

It will be interesting to see what the world looks like and what techs the AI have when we finally meet them. Our prioities for trade are Theology, Construction, Currency and, dare we hope for, Feudalism?

 

[Bede]

Looks like I get to make more friends, shy retiring kinda guy that I am.

Nice sets of turns, hope I can keep the course.

Play it tomorrow.

 

[Bezhukov]

Why are we researching astronomy????

I thought we agreed to get it free via liberalism?

BTW, paper (on the lib path) lets us trade world maps, which should get us the cirumnavigation bonus easily. As caravels can't transport troops, probably overdoing it a bit to build 4. Ollan could have used a whipped forge. With two seafood, it can use the whip for all infra before settling down to work its tundra forests.

 

[DJMGator13]

Why are we researching astronomy????

I thought we agreed to get it free via liberalism?

BTW, paper (on the lib path) lets us trade world maps, which should get us the cirumnavigation bonus easily. As caravels can't transport troops, probably overdoing it a bit to build 4. Ollan could have used a whipped forge. With two seafood, it can use the whip for all infra before settling down to work its tundra forests.

Good questions. (I asked myself some of the same things as I played it.)

I was working off of Brad's list of techs from post 281. Wouldn't going the liberalism path require us to research Theology first and since Christianity is already founded that means we should be able to trade for it? Without being able to trade for Currency, Construction, Drama or Theology yet I just proceeded to the next tech that we would selfresearch. I didn't want to research something we might be able to trade for.

Same with Paper, requiring Theology unless I read the tech tree wrong (I don't remember if it was an option when I got the popup).

There are 3 caravels at sea and I've sent 2 of them in opposite directions so being the first to circle the world should be easy. I started a caravel in Haum but changed it back to the granary after 2 turns, so that one may never get built. For some reason I thought caravels could carry more than 1 unit and not as restricted, but I think meeting all the other civs is the top priority.

Poprushing in Olly, probably should have been the forge but I needed to whip and I wanted to get the first caravel out quickly. Olly still had 1 unhappy from a prior whip when I started.

 

[Bezhukov]

"Wouldn't going the liberalism path require us to research Theology first and since Christianity is already founded that means we should be able to trade for it?"

Nope. Paper->Ed->Lib

Whipping the Caravel was no biggie, if it gets us three techs five turns sooner, its worth it.

If currency isn't available for trade here in the next few turns, it would also be worth a 3 turn research for us, but the AI tends to neglect the lib line for a while, including paper, which allows trading of world maps - kinda important for us for lots of reasons.

I try never to do anything (with the possible exception of a Statue of Liberty build) in this game that takes over 10 turns, 15 max, including tech research - great way to fall behind.

 

[bradleyfeanor]

Nope. Paper->Ed->Lib

You left out meditation and philosophy. Also, if we want to use a Great Scientist for Chemistry, everyone should remember that we can’t research Paper first. Once we have Paper, a Great Scientist would research Printing Press, then Education, then Chemistry. This is one of those many, many decisions that it is hard to make correctly unless we know the exact type of game we want to play. If we plan to turn research low or off, then we shouldn’t get Meditation, and also shouldn’t research anything not on the direct path to Chemistry. We can trade for other techs, but we shouldn’t research them ourselves.

Back to Picking a Game Type…Again
We can’t delay making a team decision on what game type we are playing for much longer: quick dom with research off or very low, or slower dom with research on. There is really no way to decide where to go in research, what to trade for, or what to build in cities unless we make a decision. The two types of games are completely different, and if we try to do a little of both we are going to end up with a wrecked economy and struggling to even reach domination. I don’t mind playing either route, but I definitely don’t want to get caught in the middle.

If we go with the quick route, then we will soon be moving into a mode where we don’t build anything other than barracks, courthouses, workers and military (well, maybe 2 banks/markets/theatres, a few wonders and the FP). Building a lot or markets, observatories, banks and theatres is incompatible with the quick dom approach because, due to all the structure-building, we will not have enough military units to conquer as quickly as we need to. If we take the time to build those structures while trying to conquer, we will over extend ourselves, the economy will stagnate, and the AIs will catch up to us and eventually pass us.

If we go the route where we keep research on, then we can build a smaller military and take the time to build markets, theatres, etc. Our civ is currently suited to pursue either type of game. Keeping research on is the safe route, and there is a lot of margin for error regarding what we build in cities, how we use our leaders, and how effectively we use our military. But as I mentioned in a previous post, “research off” is dangerous: we will have to be very precise in everything we do. That means everyone on the team will have to be on the same page.

Gator’s Turns
Nice job Gator! I actually like the extra caravel, although I would bring him back and load him with a missionary. Your research decision was the right one if we are going for quick dom.

Man, we missed Parthenon by 2 lousy turns. I guess I should have focused on getting it a bit more during my turns. Now that I look closely at the game, I would rather have the extra GP points than the money. I also see that Mali built it. With the Parthenon and the Pyramids, Mali will have to be very powerful indeed for them not to be the first head on our chopping block.

Since this is “Learning to Walk”, here are a couple of things I probably would have done differently:

I wouldn’t have built the floodplain and grassland cottages around Cori or Huamanga. I think it would have been better to irrigate them. I also would have developed the pig and horse before the FPs for faster growth and more hammers. Cori and Huamanga need to do everything they can to get hammers since those are the two best production cities we have. We are doing pretty good on commerce, but we are really hurting on production.

Generally, when I play a game for quick dom or conquest, I think it is very worthwhile to concentrate heavily on commerce/research in the early game (as we did), but once it gets close to time to go to war, the focus should shift to food and production.

I would have built the Great Library in Tiwan after the HG rather than in Cuzco. Building it in the capitol does result in getting 3 extra bpt due to the Academy, but by not building the GL in the city that we plan to have the National Epic, we lose 8 Great Person points per turn (due to the doubling effect of the Nat. Epic).

With the GL in Cuzco, that means we will have to run extra scientists there (which means citizens not working cottages) in order to get a Great Scientist out of the city quick enough to be of value to us. Without the extra Great People Points, we would not get a scientist in time to help us research Chemistry (this assumes that we are making Tiwan our Great Person city and will be building the National Epic there after the HG).

There is a big benefit to your choice of building the GL in Cuzco though: we will have a 100% chance of getting a Scientist, so no worries about having bad luck.

Upcoming turns
If Tiwan is going to be our GP city, I would irrigate the plains as well as the grassland S, SW of the city (irr the grass first). That will allow us to run another Great Person there down the road.

We still need more workers—especially around Huamanga. It would also be nice to get our other bonus tiles hooked up (wine, iron, incense) for trading purposes.

After Cori finishes its forge and a temple, and after Machu finishes a lighthouse and a worker, I would start building lots of Macemen in those cities. They should build cats too once we trade for construction. We are running a little behind where I hoped we would be regarding military production, so unless a city needs something really important, it should build military.

I notice there is a scientist in Olly…do we need him? It seems to me we should just keep growing way beyond the happy limit and pop rush for multiple citizens whenever we can.