GEM Stage 3: Diplomacy

I don't think introducing distance mechanics on alliances would be ideal, or necessarily realistic. Often these are rivals and there's some advantage in having access halfway around the world because of a resource or because of defence in depth strategies. There's no realism IR basis for saying that a distant country is a less likely ally than a close one. There might be cultural arguments for such things but it's not like France and Germany have that similar of cultural heritages, as an example (France and Belgium or Germany and Netherlands/Denmark, maybe). Or the US and Mexico. Close isn't a good enough proxy for friendly that we need to use it.

A case for slower degrades on non-competitive alliances is plausible. That could also encourage some competition with the AI over CS and increase the value of the patronage tree, using enemy CS influence degrading effects, Angkor Wat wonder, etc. I'm not sure how easy this would be to do or to balance.

I don't think the counterpoints about Switzerland, etc really demonstrate that there's a historical problem with civs switching their alliances rapidly. Most of Ahriman's examples were major power civs, not minor powers like the CSs. That doesn't mean there are not such examples (Egypt or Iran in modern day, most of Eastern Europe, etc). The more likely effect on CS with competing influence is as you describe (they might try to sit it out to avoid offending either party later), but I don't think it would be desirable to have alliances that refuse to support you in a war in game terms. It might be possible to do but I'm not sure of its appeal or that it's entirely realistic.

Of course, it's not very realistic that they'd swap alliances and thus at war states repeatedly during a protracted war either. Possibly a timer for peace/war with a major civ for a minor CS would be useful. I don't think a 0 influence at war trigger is desirable at all. There's a huge difference between "you are nearly allied or over alliance value but not the top" not causing a war and "you have any influence at all with any CS" prevents a war with said CS.

If that mechanic is desirable, I'd say something like anything over -30 influence gaps between the two should be sufficient to cause a war, or maybe -45/-60 if you have enough for an alliance but aren't allied.

A stronger case might be for long-term effects to be involved in diplomatic victories.

(Note: Spain did give token assistance in the form of arming some volunteer brigades to the Germans, but the major reason it didn't intervene was that it was still consolidating power internally, not that they were also aligned with the British or Americans or Russians. America and Britain put some diplomatic pressure on them to stay out and Spain did help some Jews and downed pilots/POWs, but they weren't an ally of the allied powers as a basis for staying out of the way).
 
Getting CS's to declare war should take more involvement then simply dropping off a bag of gold on thier doorstep.
Why? CSes aren't that effective in a war. It shouldn't take that much to get them involved. But getting them involved is one of the perks you get for being their ally. If they didn't DOW then they would be less interesting.

I don't think introducing distance mechanics on alliances would be ideal, or necessarily realistic
Agreed. I think people are trying to fix something that isn't broken.

Most of Ahriman's examples were major power civs, not minor powers like the CSs.
And minor civs changed alliances just as often as major civs.

Think about the various German or Italian minor states, which had a constantly shifting pattern of alliances and allegiances. Think about the minor central asian powers shifting allegiance between the UK and Russia. Think about the shifting alliances with tribes or kingdoms in the Americas, Africa or India. Think about colonial possessions which were readily traded between great powers. Think of cold war meddling in Latin America, the Middle East, Africa and Asia. Think of China and Taiwan today bidding for influence in small Pacific Island nations.
 
Yeah, sorry. I realized I didn't complete my thought to show that there are examples of minor powers swapping around just as the majors do even we can see examples of minor powers sitting out. Edited my comment afterward.
 
If i have 150 influence with a neighboring CS and I have been Allies with that CS since the beginning and all of a sudden my enemy pops a Merchant and buys 151 influence and declares war, that CS should go to war with me?

That is rediculous. What if I had 500 and the other guy bought 501?

There is no amount of influence that you can have that an enemy can't buy you out of.

Your argument is that in real life there are examples of CS's switching alliances. (Although I don't know if any of those actually switching of alliegences amounted to actual war).

My argument is that there are just as many occasions in RL when those CS's sit it out as well.

Insert Thals Fun chart here...

Currently in Civ V = Always declares war = no choice = Not fun
Proposal = Sometimes declares war = Choice = fun
Other extreme = Never declares war = no choice = Not fun
 
ahriman : you are speaking of changes in alliance that took years.. even decades...
your examples are not in any fashion the illustrations of CS DOWing someone they were allied the turn before just because someone else gives gold.

It is true that countries that are CS-like have their alliegances change over-time. But not as sharply as you are proclaming it.

at least it should wait a turn to see if the former ally (that was allied just the turn before you bought them) might want to make an even bigger gift before declaring war.

(I'm not talking about CS that were friendly... but those that were allied!)

There is only coups that could make a CS change alliance so quickly... in RL it is because of a change in governement, placing your cronies in stead of the former direction. However without a coup, the CS-like countries always move slowly before changing alliegances.... but then the CS should suffer some delay before being efficient...a coup means the CS is weak for a time.
 
The AI engages in extensive CS bidding wars in the leadup to the vote. It is quite hard to hold all the CSes unless you are economically ahead.

Just wanted to check since I haven't played that deep with the latest version.

I know that the AI right spends its money like crazy, rarely having more than a few hundred gold.

Does it shift strategy towards the late game and start building up gold or at least shifting it all into influence?

I ask because I can easily hoard thousands of gold and counter an AI with only a few hundred in the bank.
 
I personally don't have a big problem with a player buying an alliance from under me, its part of what makes gold very useful. And paying for mercenaries is a timehonored tradition.

However, I would like that you get some kind of diplomatic benefits to a long term alliance with a CS.

For example, I would love if your influence loss rate could be adjusted by how long you have been allied with a CS. For example, normally my influence loss is -1. However, if I was allied with a CS for 50 turns lets say, it drops to -.9 (or some numbers that would be balanced).

Someone could still buy the alliance, but its a little less work for me to maintain it.
 
If it's possible I would prefer the "CS doesn't declare war when your own influence is above treshhold X (double or thrice or four times the needed points for alliance) or if enemies influence is less than y (25?) points above your own influence". Simple system and allows you to prevent the war declaration with some investment.

Apart from that it should definately be possible to interact with enemy city states during a war, i.e. buy them out of their alliance with gold or a spy or even a quest or opportunity!
 
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