Krill
Deity
Then that's not balancing the map. That's playing god.
General Turn Discussion
- Thread starter Krill
- Start date
IamJohn
(was)?
He's the mapmaker *shrug*
I vaguely remember talking about that though when we were figuring out the settings for the map, I don't remember what was decided though.
I vaguely remember talking about that though when we were figuring out the settings for the map, I don't remember what was decided though.
Krill
Deity
*shrug* It's OT. If we are going to discuss we should discuss it somewhere else.
IamJohn
(was)?
It's general discussion while waiting for a new turn what do you expect? 
(I'll stop going nuts with *shrug*ing now... )
(I'll stop going nuts with *shrug*ing now... )
Krill
Deity
I don't mind spam, actually I enjoy it. I don't know about the rest of the teams opinion though.
The way I look at this map is that we never had a chance to find Cav or Kaz before they met and made an alliance. Only team we could have found was Saturn, and then possibly MS. MS won't even talk to us for some reason, so because there is only one way into and out of our lands via a land route, and a sodding massive peninsula to our east, our entire diplomatic strategy was set in stone for us from turn 0. We were just lucky we basically played the ultimate isolationist strategy, and picked the perfect civ for our lands, without knowing we had to.
The way I look at this map is that we never had a chance to find Cav or Kaz before they met and made an alliance. Only team we could have found was Saturn, and then possibly MS. MS won't even talk to us for some reason, so because there is only one way into and out of our lands via a land route, and a sodding massive peninsula to our east, our entire diplomatic strategy was set in stone for us from turn 0. We were just lucky we basically played the ultimate isolationist strategy, and picked the perfect civ for our lands, without knowing we had to.
Ronnie1
Deity
Heal Gelderlander!
How fast can we get another Axe(or 2) out of CK?
If the Axe near JD stays in the jungle, he could be a problem.
How fast can we get another Axe(or 2) out of CK?
If the Axe near JD stays in the jungle, he could be a problem.
Krill
Deity
Chariot has odds on an axe in jungle. With 2 chariots we should be fine, and we don't know where the axe will go to.
An axe out of CK wouldn't get there in time, it'd arrive into JD on t99, 3 turns too late.
An axe out of CK wouldn't get there in time, it'd arrive into JD on t99, 3 turns too late.
Ronnie1
Deity
I know it couldn't get there for this axe....but there will be more for sure now. Just an idea!
Krill
Deity
We can bring the axe back from the NE if need be and send up another chariot to fog bust. It's all flat land up there so a chariot will be fine.
Dreylin
Cousin Itt!
Well I'd much prefer to reserve judgement until the entire map is visible - or at least enough of Cav & Kaz's lands to make that assertion; for all we know they are on pennisulae similar to ours. What we do know is that they both sent out early workboats - which it turns out was the quickest / most reliable way of meeting people.
As to Ivory; maybe theirs is just a bit further from their Capitals than ours, or maybe they didn't want to dive right into the Jungle in the same way we did...?
Krill
Deity
just wondering, but which assertion would you wait to make? Just a fyi, but for a WB to have sailed around the east coast and found Kaz before they found Cav, we would have to have built it by t20...
from what I can tell of the map so far
We have 1 land entrance (East Of angle)
Kaz has 1 land entrance (south of Angle)
Saturn had 1+ Land Entrance (North of Angle, on thier East) and possibly 3 (1 to their West to MS and one to thier S to Cav
Cav has 1+ Land Entrance 1 to the west of Angle, Possibly 1-2 in thier North to MS & Saturn
Ms has 2-3 Land Entrances see above.
Now depending where Kaz's capital is, the relative placement of civ's puts us the farthest away from anyone, via land or sea.
We have 1 land entrance (East Of angle)
Kaz has 1 land entrance (south of Angle)
Saturn had 1+ Land Entrance (North of Angle, on thier East) and possibly 3 (1 to their West to MS and one to thier S to Cav
Cav has 1+ Land Entrance 1 to the west of Angle, Possibly 1-2 in thier North to MS & Saturn
Ms has 2-3 Land Entrances see above.
Now depending where Kaz's capital is, the relative placement of civ's puts us the farthest away from anyone, via land or sea.
Dreylin
Cousin Itt!
Does that assume we have to get the WB all the way to their borders, or that we meet their WB halfway round? Did Cav/Kaz meet at borders, or did their WBs meet each other halfway? Did Kaz send their first WB West and their second East; what if they had switched directions?
Or to paraphrase the old Maths questions: If a WB leaves Inner Sanctum on t20 and travels East, and a WB leaves Kazakstan on t35 and travels East, what turn do they meet?
Krill
Deity
Stumbles back from the bar. Gotta love Trevs, best bar in this goddamned university without a doubt. 12 Year old Glenmorangie for £2.00? Yes please!
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8046914&postcount=385
We know exactly where Kazs' work boat was on any given turn after t42, when it would have come in view of the southern tip of our peninsula where an axe is atm. Before that time, we don;t know the lay of the land and so cannot comment with reliability. OTOH, we know that Kaz has a city with borders visible from OO, and we know that their starting location is coastal.
We know that the absolute latest that Kaz got a deal with Cav to get fued was t50, and I know this from leaked infomation from Kaz in the private fora of one of the teams in the Apolyton BtSDG. We don't know when they met however. It would be fair to assume IMO that they didn't meet and work out a deal all in one turn. One possible way of checking is looking at how long Kaz took on each turn after t30, but that is not perfect, for obvious reasons.
To meet Kaz by t50 though we would have to have sent the workboat out of IS on t38, which would have been achieveable after we got out the settler for CK, but would have slowed getting JD, and workers, and hence the Oracle. To have met Kaz by t40, assuming that we would have met them via WB and not culture we would have had to sent out the workboat on t28, and that would have really hurt the oracle. Earliest we could have gotten a WB out after the settler for JD is t37 without chopping into it, with chopping t34 (and I know these values from memory for some reason...why? (and that was rhetorical...))
Would meeting Kaz earlier have been good for us? Maybe, if we got to them early enough, but not at the cost of the Oracle. Answering why to that would require a post that would put my dissertation to shame (and I've already done that once on this board...)
EDIT: Finished.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8046914&postcount=385
We know exactly where Kazs' work boat was on any given turn after t42, when it would have come in view of the southern tip of our peninsula where an axe is atm. Before that time, we don;t know the lay of the land and so cannot comment with reliability. OTOH, we know that Kaz has a city with borders visible from OO, and we know that their starting location is coastal.
We know that the absolute latest that Kaz got a deal with Cav to get fued was t50, and I know this from leaked infomation from Kaz in the private fora of one of the teams in the Apolyton BtSDG. We don't know when they met however. It would be fair to assume IMO that they didn't meet and work out a deal all in one turn. One possible way of checking is looking at how long Kaz took on each turn after t30, but that is not perfect, for obvious reasons.
To meet Kaz by t50 though we would have to have sent the workboat out of IS on t38, which would have been achieveable after we got out the settler for CK, but would have slowed getting JD, and workers, and hence the Oracle. To have met Kaz by t40, assuming that we would have met them via WB and not culture we would have had to sent out the workboat on t28, and that would have really hurt the oracle. Earliest we could have gotten a WB out after the settler for JD is t37 without chopping into it, with chopping t34 (and I know these values from memory for some reason...why? (and that was rhetorical...))
Would meeting Kaz earlier have been good for us? Maybe, if we got to them early enough, but not at the cost of the Oracle. Answering why to that would require a post that would put my dissertation to shame (and I've already done that once on this board...)
EDIT: Finished.
Dreylin
Cousin Itt!
@Krill; I wasn't trying to deconstruct all the choices which have brought us to this point, just pointing out that there were a lot of factors which led to Kaz/Cav meeting and us not meeting them that had nothing to do with the map.
Did the map play a part: maybe. And that's what I'm reserving judgement on.
Did the map play a part: maybe. And that's what I'm reserving judgement on.
Krill
Deity
I think I just demolished the PoV that all starts are equal, simply by demostrating the extent of the sacrifice we would have had to have made to have had an equal chance of success in diplo compared to Kaz and Cav, hence judgement on the map is acceptable because we already have enough infomation to judge it.
The map certainly played apart; how can you claim otherwise, when you assert that workboats are the best method of scouting out the other teams? It is in effect a linear path between the teams, so distance between them is easily calculated.
Also, you should deconstruct all of the points about lead us to the current situation. When one does that one realises quite quickly why particular strategies are so strong.
Also, this is a good debate. We should keep it going.
The map certainly played apart; how can you claim otherwise, when you assert that workboats are the best method of scouting out the other teams? It is in effect a linear path between the teams, so distance between them is easily calculated.
Also, you should deconstruct all of the points about lead us to the current situation. When one does that one realises quite quickly why particular strategies are so strong.
Also, this is a good debate. We should keep it going.
Ronnie1
Deity
I agree...I am learning a lot from the conversation!
Krill
Deity
I can post all day. I just need other people to take the other side of the argument. When I'm arguing both sides it gets quite boring for everyone as I miss out steps in the logic and the argument is hard to follow, and I get no new infomation to think about.
fine Ill play the other side 
But others jump in to as I am always the one to argue with Krill.
Is it illogicial to conclude Kaz and Cav had a prearranged deal prior to meeting? I don't think so.
Also had we sent Barentz W (to angle) then S to Kaz we could of been to them prior to T35.
So overall the WB just seemed to have worked out in this game, that said I do believe we are the furthest away from anyone which is a blessing and a curse.
Maybe that is why we got Ivory.
But others jump in to as I am always the one to argue with Krill.
Is it illogicial to conclude Kaz and Cav had a prearranged deal prior to meeting? I don't think so.
Also had we sent Barentz W (to angle) then S to Kaz we could of been to them prior to T35.
So overall the WB just seemed to have worked out in this game, that said I do believe we are the furthest away from anyone which is a blessing and a curse.
Maybe that is why we got Ivory.
Krill
Deity
The advantage of working with Wb when working out distances between teams is because the distance is infact linear (you can only move forwards and backwards). This makes it incredibly easy to calculate when each team should be met, as well as the earliest dates for meeting.
The disadvatange of working with land based scouts is that you have many more degrees of freedom; the only two ways to resolve this are:
I have contended that we had several options when scouting with the warriors, that could have altered the game significantly (Barentz around t15 was one, heading SW instead of E around the mountians, Stuy getting stuck in the dead end was another). We aren't supposed to know if either was the right or wrong move at the time, hence it wasn't the wrong move at the time (except for Stuys, that was a mistake. Should have followed the river).
The disadvatange of working with land based scouts is that you have many more degrees of freedom; the only two ways to resolve this are:
- Multiple scouts, so one scouts per direction = all directions scouted = finding Kaz sooner. This doesn't work though because the amount of resources required to do this is horrendous, barbs exist to screw with scouting, healing and all that junk, as well as needing to scout for city locations and needing to defend cities and workers.
- Rely on sending 1 scout in the correct direction to find teams early. Because the amount of degrees of freedom in scouting are finite the probability of finding another team by a set turn is knowable, but you probably require Ph.D level maths to figure it out, or you plan to resolve by brute force (I could have ago...)
I have contended that we had several options when scouting with the warriors, that could have altered the game significantly (Barentz around t15 was one, heading SW instead of E around the mountians, Stuy getting stuck in the dead end was another). We aren't supposed to know if either was the right or wrong move at the time, hence it wasn't the wrong move at the time (except for Stuys, that was a mistake. Should have followed the river).
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