General Turn Discussion

[Krill]

If we head straight for Optics, then Banking, Gunpowder, Astro, we could feasibly boat Kaz and kill them pretty quickly...push in from both Zero and PM, and raze as we go...then set up a mid game showdown on Cav, while we still have an advantage in EIM, 1 decent ally and Kazs' land is teching for us and not them. Or play builder. I'd to have a go at that sometime.

I would suggest we switch to Nationalism once we get gunpowder and make use of our stupidly high happy caps that we never seem to touch. Apart from the fact I've never used Nationalism before, so I don't quite know what to expect...

 

[Memphus]

I would suggest we switch to Nationalism once we get gunpowder and make use of our stupidly high happy caps that we never seem to touch. Apart from the fact I've never used Nationalism before, so I don't quite know what to expect...

After Kaz is dead we can go builder if we want. Then we only have 1 flank at TKY to defend.

As for Nationalism, unless war is happening it is a great way to increase your unit maintenance.

It takes careful MM as you need to draft every turn. That said with circumnav, EIM and Steel (drydocks) we have really fast ships from IS, so anything drafted can sail fast!

Ideally the timing should be such that we go to GA and build. We complete TAJ and continue in GA, at the beggining of this we switch to nationalism and draft. At the end of it we go back to bureau and use the 30+ muskets we have to deal out some pain.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

my guess is that once we kill Kaz, we are in a 3-1. but that's just my guess.

 

[Mojoqmeyvam]

It takes careful MM as you need to draft every turn.

And this is a problem because?

Machinery -> Optics -> Banking -> Gunpowder -> Astro sounds good to me. Maybe Engineering right after that?
I'd lean towards a Boats + Land war on Kaz pre-Redcoats, planning on striking around Astro/Engineering.

Nationhood switch: We could do it as early as post-Machinery, not sure if drafted maces is really worth it compared to whipping.

Post-Astro: The two militaristic tech lines that I see are Engineering -> Chemistry -> Steel, and Printing Press -> Replaceable Parts -> Rifling -> Steam Power. I'm leaning slightly in favor of the first line: Engineering's needed for mobility near- and medium-term, Grens are harder to counter than rifles (Kaz & Cav aren't going to be that close to Mil Tradition + Gunpowder, I presume), and Cannons + Drydocks are great. If by the time we finish Astro we're really in builder mode, then we could head for Democracy, but Constitution and Democracy are very expensive for just the SoL and Emancipation. So I'd vote against an SoL push, at least for now.

I second Memphus' ideal finishing order.

 

[sooooo]

I recommend you guys plan where to build the globe then start the (cheap) theatres and then the wonder. If you want to do some drafting (which, of course, you definitely want to do) then you need the globe as soon as you can after you discover gunpowder. It doesn't need to be a major city, in fact it's better when it's growing from size 5 to size 6 and back most turns. You just need a city with a couple of food resources and 3 farmable grasslands. Some choppable forests for the wonder would be useful too.

 

[Krill]

The best city for the GT is TKY. It's right on the front, and it is the city with the most food surplus in the entire empire. It still has 5 forests, and at size 9 can reach 18 hpt. The problem is just the sodding workers, which have been pretty neglected the past 20 turns. We need a short while to chop out a load more at ZC, but we also need to dedicate enough workers to improve the copper and the cow on the border with Kaz while we still have peace.

We can finish 1 turn theatres in IS, FC and CK, which leaves another 2 cities to build them. I'd suggest that Zero isn'y one of them because it can't get it quickly enough. The other two are possibly ZC, DT, JD and at the outside PM. PM is probably the best, and then DT.

 

[Krill]

And this is a problem because?

As far as I'm concerned the problem is only being able to draft 3 times a turn...

Machinery -> Optics -> Banking -> Gunpowder -> Astro sounds good to me. Maybe Engineering right after that?
I'd lean towards a Boats + Land war on Kaz pre-Redcoats, planning on striking around Astro/Engineering.

It's a good, rough, order.

Nationhood switch: We could do it as early as post-Machinery, not sure if drafted maces is really worth it compared to whipping.

Also need to consider the tech angle. We may be without an academy in JD at that time, so we may also need bureacracy for the extra beakers, so we can swap to Merc, FR and Nationalism by the end of the GA.

Post-Astro: The two militaristic tech lines that I see are Engineering -> Chemistry -> Steel, and Printing Press -> Replaceable Parts -> Rifling -> Steam Power. I'm leaning slightly in favor of the first line: Engineering's needed for mobility near- and medium-term, Grens are harder to counter than rifles (Kaz & Cav aren't going to be that close to Mil Tradition + Gunpowder, I presume), and Cannons + Drydocks are great. If by the time we finish Astro we're really in builder mode, then we could head for Democracy, but Constitution and Democracy are very expensive for just the SoL and Emancipation. So I'd vote against an SoL push, at least for now.

I second Memphus' ideal finishing order.

We also need SoL to deal with any Cav frigates...

 

[Mojoqmeyvam]

Krill, I think we've gotten our acronyms mixed up. I was referring to SoL as Statue of Liberty, did you mean we need Ships of the Line for dealing with Cav Frigates?
The Statue won't pay pack its beakers and hammers cost (Jails and Emancipation are nearly worthless for us IMO) for something like 40 turns, and it didn't seem to me that was a good investment.
Ships of the Line from Military Science means that we need to go Chemistry -> Military Science. I keep on forgetting that Grenadiers come with Military Science, as well, not Chemistry.

 

[Krill]

Actually, I meant SoL as Statue of Liberty in every single post apart from my previous one.

What is the value and cost of the Statue though? We'll have a minimum of 16 cities, and a maximum of 25 if Kaz is dead. The cost is 1500 adjusted hammers, which is 667 base hammers. The benefit is an extra 108 bpt minimum, 225 bpt maximum (both in rep). Not counting the gpp, which in the majority of cases isn't going to count, but it adds up, especially with Merc.

And we have the perfect place to build the SoL: FC, which can only build military, infrastructure or wonders. And it is a 32 base hpt city once fully grown, so 21 turns to the SoL from scratch.

Side effects of heading for Democracy: We can revolt to Emancipation and try to hurt Cav via unhappiness, with the cheap libs that we have we can still run a full complement of scientists everywhere. If we have taken Kaz out, and Saturn swap as well, we'll have an easy 45% of the worklds population, perhaps more than 50%, thus forcing Cav to tech to democracy themselves for emancipation, or us the culture slider for happiness and royally screw up their own tech as they are running purely on commerce.

We could feasibly make back the cost of the SoL in 4 turns, and the cost of democracy in, with a swap to emancipation, less than 10? I don't know how severe the happiness can be from emancipation.

 

[Mojoqmeyvam]

Statue: We'd also need Constitution (nearly useless), and an early Printing Press (which is ok, off the Steel/Mil Science line but not Replaceable Parts/Rifling) would mean it's closer to 20 turns from the completion of the SoL to pay back in research. Emancipation is likely to be either 1 or 2 unhappiness. Number of civs and/or what percent of the pop does make a difference for Emancipation unhappiness; I have no clue if that's "Number of civs currently alive" or "Number of civs the game started with".

If our goal is to win with just Grens, Cannons, and Ships of the Line, a direct beeline will probably get us there faster. But can we win without getting any more military? I doubt it. Democracy is a detour, but one that, on second thought, will pay back in time.

 

[Ronnie1]

Emancipation caused unhappiness is troublesome in MP. In the private PBEM we are playing, 4 civs, war caused were/are minimal, but emancipation caused were instant, and got more severe with time/growth. We were forced to tech it also to keep the people working!

War weariness does get severe when you kill huge stacks in opposing territory though!!!

 

[Krill]

Spoiler :

Pics from the empire. Memphus did all of the worker and unit moves, I just managed the cities. We now have a new capital, and IS is going to have alot of scientists being worked shortly.

But read and weep at the GNP figures. That's without us really pushing at the bpt.

 

[IamJohn]

Wow. That's simply crazy. Nice job you two.

 

[Krill]

The really crazy part is IS. It's capable of getting 3 different great people, and until 5 minutes ago I was worried we might get screwed by the RNG. Turns out I was an idiot. The GP IS can produce eot t128:

• Great Scientist - this is the one we'll have the best odds on, and on the surface it seems like it is the one we want the most. We are using the GS from OO on the Lib bulb, so we need this GS to make an academy in JD, worth around 60 bpt by the time it'll be added to JD.
  
  
• Great Engineer - No complaints, we can use this on a dizzying array of strategies. Rush GT in TKY and draft an extra 20 units there, rush OU in JD, rush Taj after we get the belated MoM. Save for another golden age, even.
  
  
• Great Merchant - this was the one that I originally thought was the most useless of them all. We are ages from any corps, a trade mission gives is an insane amount of gold, but we are at least 20 turns from completing it. But a bulb...we can use the GM bulb into guilds after machinery, and finish Banking eot t7 of the golden age, and revolt to mercantilism on the last turn. This saves us a turn in a revolt, so the bulb is worth 1200 beakers from the bulb, another 300 from the extra turns of having Merc, 450 from not being in revolt, 200 food and 150 hammers. Nifty little bulb IMO

So there aren't any bad results for that great person. I'm not even sure of which great person I want.

 

[Krill]

Memphus will do the update tomorrow, but here are some pictures to tide you all over.

Spoiler :

Fake demos below:

 

[AutomatedTeller]

I thought Gerderlander was going to go help Saturn out with Iapetus again? no?

 

[Krill]

Against spears and swords there is nothing that 1 chariot can do. Well, nothing productive, anyway.

I think its' best is to use it to unfog the corridor between where it is now, and ZC. We've been meaning to unfog that for the past, what, 40 turns, and always gotten delayed?

 

[Memphus]

Yeah he is giving Saturnn LoS right now. Which is what they wanted. And yes he will head to that corridor. His route of course must tread carefully as there is alot of barbs.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

got it - thanks, Memphus!

 

[Ronnie1]

Paused by oyzar....I think they just figured out that they are screwed!