Genocide

[Seweryn]

trailer of an Animated documentary movie about crimes against Polish Nation during II World War.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9BaeyKKkMM&feature=youtu.be

 

[Agent327]

There was a Polish genocide?

 

[gay_Aleks]

katyn was a genocide! hear the things the russians/germans dont want you to hear

 

[Agent327]

Murdering a neigbour's countries POWs isn't genocide, no. It is a war crime, but not all war crimes are genocides.

 

[Borachio]

About 20% of the Polish population died during WW2. If that's not genocide (or attempted genocide), I'm not sure what is.

I wouldn't say Katyn itself was an act of genocide necessarily, but an attempt to remove the officer and intellectual class of Poland from circulation. So in a sense a contribution to the subjugation of Poland. But, yeah, why not? Genocide.

 

[Evie]

Estimates I've seen are more in the nature of 16 to 17%, including holocaust victims. Counting those as part of a "genocide against poland" strike me as more than a little self-serving. There was a genocide, and they were victims of it, but it had nothing to do with the Polish part of their identity.

Once you count those out, the Polish death toll in WW II falls down below the 10% mark, and at the high end of the same range as most other countries invaded by the Third Reich. A lot of war crimes, but not a genocide.

 

[Borachio]

That's strange. The highest estimate I've come across so far is 6.5 million, and the lowest 5.7 million.

 

[Evie]

I've seen 5.6 to 6, personally, with 2.7 to 3 million of them polish Jews.

At which point you're left with around 3 million non-jewish polish deaths, out of a pre-war population above thirty millions, so less than ten percent.

 

[Domen]

I've seen 5.6 to 6, personally, with 2.7 to 3 million of them polish Jews.

These commonly cited figures for Poland's losses in WW2 were calculated in such a way, that only deaths of ethnic Polish and Jewish citizens of Poland were counted. Ukrainians, Belarusians, etc. - who were large minorities in pre-war Poland - are not included in these numbers above.

They are - on the other hand - included in figures on Soviet Union's losses, even though they were Poland's citizens in 1939. So ethnic Ukrainians and ethnic Belarusians who were citizens of Poland before WW2 are counted as parts of Soviet Union's losses suffered during that war.

But ethnic Poles who were citizens of the Soviet Union, Germany, and other countries before WW2 - are not counted as Poland's losses.

There is generally a mess with these figures, mostly due to territorial changes, population transfers, and problems with ethnic classifications.

 

[Evie]

Some of the (lower) estimates are without non-ethnic poles, but many of the estimate around six millions DO count Ukrainians and Belarusians and the ilk.

Incidentally, it's debatable whether they would even count as part of a Polish genocide. In general, the term genocide applies to actions against an ethnic group, not a political nationality.

 

[Agent327]

About 20% of the Polish population died during WW2. If that's not genocide (or attempted genocide), I'm not sure what is.

I wouldn't say Katyn itself was an act of genocide necessarily, but an attempt to remove the officer and intellectual class of Poland from circulation. So in a sense a contribution to the subjugation of Poland.

Katyn was a Soviet war crime though. And no, it had very little to do with genocide, as a particular class of people were targeted by the Soviets. Genocide makes no such subtle distinctions.

The ideology behind the mass killings wasn't genocidal either: the idea was that all Slavs (which would include Poles) were 'subhumans' and should be used to 'serve the master race'. That the effect of this treatment was (in part) genocidal could, however, very well be argued. But, unlike with the Jews, there was no 'masterplan to exterminate all Poles.'

 

[Domen]

Some of the (lower) estimates are without non-ethnic poles, but many of the estimate around six millions DO count Ukrainians and Belarusians and the ilk.

The estimate of 6 million was established in 1947 by BOW (Bureau of Wartime Reparations), which was part of Poland's Presidium of the Council of Ministers - and this figure since the beginning included only ethnic Polish and Jewish citizens of pre-war Poland. It does not include losses of ethnic minorities.

If you include losses of Ukrainians, Belarusians, etc. with pre-war Polish citizenship, then it will be closer to 8 million probably (my "guesstimate").

================================

As for the issue of whether the killings of ethnic Poles, Polish Jews and other citizens of Poland during WW2 can be called a genocide. What constitutes a genocide was defined in international law not before 1948. So it may be difficult to apply the term to events which predate its very existence:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_Convention

The Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG) was adopted by the United Nations General Assembly on 9 December 1948 as General Assembly Resolution 260. The convention entered into force on 12 January 1951.[1] It defines genocide in legal terms, and is the culmination of years of campaigning by lawyer Raphael Lemkin. All participating countries are advised to prevent and punish actions of genocide in war and in peacetime. (...)

Check the definition from that 1948 convention - it seems like a broad definition, under which a lot of things might be counted as a genocide:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_Convention#Definition_of_genocide

Raphael Lemkin was a Polish lawyer who emigrated to the USA in 1941. It was him who actually invented the term "genocide" in 1943 or 1944:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raphael_Lemkin

Raphael Lemkin (June 24, 1900 – August 28, 1959) was a Polish lawyer who emigrated to the United States in 1941. He is best known for his work against genocide, a word he coined in 1943[1] or 1944[2] from the rooted words genos (Greek for family, tribe, or race) and -cide (Latin for killing).[2][3] He first used the word in print in "Axis Rule in Occupied Europe: Laws of Occupation - Analysis of Government - Proposals for Redress" (1944), and defined it as "the destruction of a nation or an ethnic group." (...)

Link to video.

"Raphael Lemkin's fight against the crime without a name [yet]":

Spoiler :

Link to video.

"Destruction" of a nation - but what does it mean? Does it necessarily mean physical extermination of all of its members?

You can "destroy" a man without killing him (take his job, take his wife, take his home, etc.). Can one also "destroy" a nation like this?

 

[Domen]

The ideology behind the mass killings wasn't genocidal either: the idea was that all Slavs (which would include Poles) were 'subhumans' and should be used to 'serve the master race'. That the effect of this treatment was (in part) genocidal could, however, very well be argued. But, unlike with the Jews, there was no 'masterplan to exterminate all Poles.'

I think that - ultimately - they planned to cleanse the conquered land of all Slavic people as well. Of course Germans wanted (and did so) to start their extermination from the "top", and continue towards the "bottom", killing university professors first and construction workers last - as those workers were - for the time being - necessary as slave labor to build new infrastructure (roads, cities, etc.) for German colonists in their new eastern Lebensraum.

Here is what Gunnar Heinsohn wrote in an essay from 2000:

 

[Evie]

Dolmen, I'm quite familiar with the defintion of genocide; international criminal law is one of my field of studies.

As for the eight millions, I've read the original 6million was too high, because it included many people who went missing in the war and who were later found in the USSR or in the West. At least from the estimates I can see, 6 millions still seem to be the right ballpark EVEN counting Belorusian and Ukrainian (something like 3 mil jews 2 mil poles 1 mil others, or 3/2.5/0.5, or something in those waters. No estimates I've found put the Ukrainian/belorusian death toll above 1 mil ; your 2 million estimate is frankly doubftful (especially so given that they weren't 40% of Polish population).

That said, it seems that there IS a case to be made in favor of a polish genocide in World War II; at least, the allies thought so, since the indictment of the Nazi leaders at Nuremberg specifically singled out the Polish people (along with Jews and Roms) as a target of Nazi genocide.

With that in mind, as well as your Hitler quotes above, I will concede that there is ground to claim there was a Polish genocide carried out by Nazi germany. It's not a clear-cut case, but it's a reasonable allegation.

 

[Borachio]

What's this I see? "...seriously wounded German soldiers... to be exterminated by Hitler's Germany"?

This is a new one on me. Did they really do that?

 

[Domen]

With that in mind, as well as your Hitler quotes above, I will concede that there is ground to claim there was a Polish genocide carried out by Nazi germany. It's not a clear-cut case, but it's a reasonable allegation.

The genocide convention in article 3 defines the crimes that can be punished under the convention:

(a) Genocide;
(b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;
(c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;
(d) Attempt to commit genocide;
(e) Complicity in genocide.

I guess that what Nazi Germany did to the Poles is best described by (b) and (d), would you agree?

 

[Evie]

It's debatable. A conspiracy is more than comments and observations, and a good defense lawyer could probably point out at a lack of specific policy implementation that would show an actual attempt to carry out the genocide. Hitler's quote could be spun as thrash talk, not actual political intent (well, probably not so much because it,s *Hitler* and we can get him on a lot of very sticky genocide cases where the evidence is much stronger).

Likewise attempted genocide is a hard case to make without a clear-cut telltale move like the concentration camps. You could certainly try to make it, and there is evidence you could quote for it, but ultimately it's a shaky case and it would be hard to make the accusations stick.

But still, it's a case that could be made before the courts, yes.

 

[Agent327]

I think that - ultimately - they planned to cleanse the conquered land of all Slavic people as well. Of course Germans wanted (and did so) to start their extermination from the "top", and continue towards the "bottom", killing university professors first and construction workers last - as those workers were - for the time being - necessary as slave labor to build new infrastructure (roads, cities, etc.) for German colonists in their new eastern Lebensraum.

That would then amount to attempted genocide. But this 'masterplan' was never put into effect. There is a a concurrence with the treatment of Ukrainians though (who initially greeted the Germans as 'liberators' until it became clear what treatment the Nazis actually had in store for Ukraine) and the treatment of Russians (especially POWs). I was aware of the genocidal idea to cleanse all of Eastern Europe as German 'Lebensraum'. But as 'intention of carrying out a terrorist attack' is about as vague as 'intention to carry out genocide'(and about this intention there can be no doubt), I have to agree with Oda that the case is arguable, but not certain. The difference with the Jews is that they were intended to be systematically destroyed; conferences were held to discuss the most effective method. This was all carefully planned, leaving no doubt whatsoever.

The vagueness of genocide even enters in the Geneva Convention definition:

any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Taken literally this would imply that killing 3 Poles amounts to genocide if that is the ultimate goal. (Obviously, if we are talking 3 million no such hair splitting is possible.)

 

[Domen]

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group

The marriage law introduced by Nazi Germany in occupied Poland made the age requirements for a Polish male to 28 and for a Polish female to 25 (source: Diemut Majer, "Non-Germans under the Third Reich", page 247). The goal of that was of course to reduce birth rates within the group.

They tried to prevent the growth of the Polish population and intended on destroying any form of a unified Polish identity.

Himmler in 1940 summed it up (source: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=63400):

"(...) Concerning the treatment of peoples of alien races in the East we have to see to it that we acknowledge and cultivate as many individual ethnic groups as possible, that is, outside of the Poles and the Jews, also the Ukrainians, the White Russians, the Gorals [Goralen], the Lemcos [Lemken] and the Cashubos [Kaschuben]. If other small and isolated national groups can be found in other places, they should be treated the same way. What I want to say is that we are not only most interested in not unifying the population of the East, but, on the contrary, in splitting them up into as many parts and fragments as possible. But even within the ethnic groups themselves we have no interest in leading these to unity and greatness, or perhaps arouse in them gradually a national consciousness and national culture, but we want to dissolve them into innumerable small fragments and particles. (...)" - Heinrich Himmler

"I expect the concept of a Jew and the concept of a Pole to disappear" - such an innocent statement by Himmler:

(...) Within a very few years--I should think about 4 to 5 years the name of the Cashubes, for instance, must be unknown, because at that time there won't be a Cashubian people any more (this also goes especially for the West Prussians). I hope that the concepts of Jews will be completely extinguished through the possibility of a large emigration of all Jews to Africa or some other colony. Within a somewhat longer period, it should also be possible to make the ethnic concepts of Ukrainians, Gorals and Lemcos disappear in our area. What has been said for those fragments of peoples is also meant on a correspondingly larger scale for the Poles. (...)

After that, Himmler continued:

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Another excerpt from Himmler's "Treatment of Alien Races in the East" (1940):

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=63400

(...) There must be no centralization toward the top, because only by dissolving this whole conglomeration of peoples of the General Government [Central Poland], amounting to 15 million, and of the 8 million of the eastern provinces, will it be possible for us to carry out the racial shifting which must be the basis for our considerations: namely selecting out of this conglomeration the racially valuable and bringing them to Germany and assimilating them there. (...)

And this part was implemented, as Polish children "of Nordic race" were being kidnapped and transferred to Germany;

"Kidnapping of children by Nazi Germany":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidnapping_of_children_by_Nazi_Germany

At more than 200,000 victims, occupied Poland had the largest proportion of children taken.[1][2] An estimated 400,000 children were abducted throughout Europe.[3] The aim of the project was to acquire and Germanize children with purportedly Aryan-Nordic traits (...)

Selection
See also: Kinder KZ - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinder_KZ

(...)

During this testing process, children were divided into three groups (in English translation):

"desired population growth" (erwünschter Bevölkerungszuwachs);
"acceptable population growth" (tragbarer Bevölkerungszuwachs); and
"undesired population growth" (unerwünschter Bevölkerungszuwachs).[20]

(...)

German medical experiments on kidnapped children

(...)

 

[warpus]

Estimates I've seen are more in the nature of 16 to 17%, including holocaust victims. Counting those as part of a "genocide against poland" strike me as more than a little self-serving. There was a genocide, and they were victims of it, but it had nothing to do with the Polish part of their identity.

Hitler's plan was to eliminate the Polish culture and identity. He wanted the lands for German settlement. Right? That sounds like a genocide in the making to me.