Geo Realism: Discussion on a new SDK based map generator

[strategyonly]

LOL. Hydro, you amuse me.


Polar
What do we want to call the "Polar Desert"? Permafrost or Polar Desert?

He grows on you, doesnt he, just like a rash

PermaFrost: "permafrost or cryotic soil is soil at or below the freezing point of water 0 °C (32 °F) for two or more years. Most permafrost is located in high latitudes (i.e. land close to the North and South poles), but alpine permafrost may exist at high altitudes in much lower latitudes. Ice is not always present, as may be in the case of nonporous bedrock, but it frequently occurs and it may be in amounts exceeding the potential hydraulic saturation of the ground material. Permafrost accounts for 0.022% of total water and exists in 24% of exposed land in the Northern Hemisphere."

Polar deserts: "are areas with annual precipitation less than 250 millimeters and a mean temperature during the warmest month of less than 10°C. Polar deserts on Earth cover nearly 5 million square kilometers and are mostly hard bedrock or gravel plains. Sand dunes are not prominent features in these deserts, but snow dunes occur commonly in areas where precipitation is locally more abundant. Temperature changes in polar deserts frequently cross the freezing point of water. This "freeze-thaw" alternation forms patterned textures on the ground, as much as 5 meters in diameter.

Most of the interior of Antarctica is polar desert, despite the thick ice cover. Conversely, the McMurdo Dry Valleys of Antarctica, although they have been ice-free for thousands of years, are not necessarily polar desert: they are kept "dry" by katabatic wind.

Polar deserts are relatively common during ice ages, as ice ages tend to be dry."

According to these description, from what i am reading THEY are complete, different terrains?? Or am i wrong here, so one cannot be classified as the same, IMO

Am i wrong?

I say OK well we debated enough now, lets get it a crackin' and lets start to get it into at least a temporary gameplay wise version, for everyone to test out, i am an OJT type person, and if i dont see it how it works, i have no idea otherwise, reading just doesnt interest me, seeing as they say is believing.

So for NOW lets take a step BACK, and let primeOver do his business, and lets see what he comes up with, hows that sound, everyone?

 

[primem0ver]

He grows on you, doesnt he, just like a rash

That he does

PermaFrost: "permafrost or cryotic soil is soil at or below the freezing point of water 0 °C (32 °F) for two or more years. Most permafrost is located in high latitudes (i.e. land close to the North and South poles), but alpine permafrost may exist at high altitudes in much lower latitudes. Ice is not always present, as may be in the case of nonporous bedrock, but it frequently occurs and it may be in amounts exceeding the potential hydraulic saturation of the ground material. Permafrost accounts for 0.022% of total water and exists in 24% of exposed land in the Northern Hemisphere."

Polar deserts: "are areas with annual precipitation less than 250 millimeters and a mean temperature during the warmest month of less than 10°C. Polar deserts on Earth cover nearly 5 million square kilometers and are mostly hard bedrock or gravel plains. Sand dunes are not prominent features in these deserts, but snow dunes occur commonly in areas where precipitation is locally more abundant. Temperature changes in polar deserts frequently cross the freezing point of water. This "freeze-thaw" alternation forms patterned textures on the ground, as much as 5 meters in diameter.

Most of the interior of Antarctica is polar desert, despite the thick ice cover. Conversely, the McMurdo Dry Valleys of Antarctica, although they have been ice-free for thousands of years, are not necessarily polar desert: they are kept "dry" by katabatic wind.

Polar deserts are relatively common during ice ages, as ice ages tend to be dry."

According to these description, from what i am reading THEY are complete, different terrains?? Or am i wrong here, so one cannot be classified as the same, IMO

Am i wrong?

Technically, neither are terrains though in my opinion, permafrost is more of a terrain than Polar Desert. "Polar Desert" is more of a biome and permfrost is a type of ground, but it isn't always at the surface and it isn't a type of soil (which is Laskaris' objection). Sometimes it is buried beneath. Still... since a terrain refers to only the surface layer, it would imply that the surface is "permafrost" where it is drawn... so I say it fits. I think it is easier to say than "Polar Desert" so it is my choice but I really don't care much. If we want someone else to decide, it would need to be someone other than Hydro or Laskaris since they create a tie.

I say OK well we debated enough now, lets get it a crackin' and lets start to get it into at least a temporary gameplay wise version, for everyone to test out, i am an OJT type person, and if i dont see it how it works, i have no idea otherwise, reading just doesnt interest me, seeing as they say is believing.

So for NOW lets take a step BACK, and let primeOver do his business, and lets see what he comes up with, hows that sound, everyone?

I would still like to know what people think of the other issues that are mentioned at the end of my last post. At least on redwoods and moor since I am split on the redwoods issue and would like more info on moors.

As far as redwoods/Mediterranean forests are concerned, I originally wanted to add them; but I also see the prudence of not adding them since they are fairly similar to seasonal/broadleaf. So I am very split on this issue and would prefer the majority to decide. As far as the other issues, I already have a leaning but I am willing to consider what others have to say.

Either way, I agree... if you want to express an opinion, hurry because now is your chance. Its time for your vote. The decision closes after tomorrow. As it stands here are my positions:

Redwoods? I am on the fence. Someone else decide.
Moor? Make it a feature.
Scrub? Keep it (but possibly call it Chaparral... see "Arid").
Arid? No good ideas except maybe "Dry shrubs." Could use some help here. Perhaps we can call "scrub" Chaparral and Arid scrub. Actually, I kind of like that idea.
Polar Desert or Permafrost? I don't really care... I guess Permafrost by default.
Desert? I am on the fence here too. Right now I lean more toward making dunes and sand desert a single terrain.

 

[strategyonly]

That he does

Either way, I agree... if you want to express an opinion, hurry because now is your chance. Its time for your vote. The decision closes after tomorrow. As it stands here are my positions:

Redwoods? I am on the fence. Someone else decide.
Moor? Make it a feature.
Scrub? Keep it (but possibly call it Chaparral... see "Arid").
Arid? No good ideas except maybe "Dry shrubs." Could use some help here. Perhaps we can call "scrub" Chaparral and Arid scrub. Actually, I kind of like that idea.
Polar Desert or Permafrost? I don't really care... I guess Permafrost by default.
Desert? I am on the fence here too. Right now I lean more toward making dunes and sand desert a single terrain.

I see no problems, i say go for it.

 

[primem0ver]

I see no problems, i say go for it.

SO, any opinion on redwoods or not (making them a separate floor terrain)?

 

[strategyonly]

Are they that important, here is what i can find:

Three species of trees are commonly referred to as redwoods: California's coast redwood (Sequoia sempervirens) and giant sequoia (Sequoiadendron giganteum), and China's dawn redwood (Metasequoia glyptostroboides).

To me thats only 2 countries out of what??

 

[primem0ver]

Are they that important, here is what i can find:

Three species of trees are commonly referred to as redwoods: California's coast redwood (Sequoia sempervirens) and giant sequoia (Sequoiadendron giganteum), and China's dawn redwood (Metasequoia glyptostroboides).

To me thats only 2 countries out of what??

Point taken. However, the redwood terrain would also be used on any Mediterranean forest and possibly Savanna forests since the soil there is unique (a red soil). So at the very least that would add southern France, Spain, Greece, Italy, Israel, part of Turkey, etc. As of now, a similar soil is being used: the east coast deciduous "brown" soil. Still, it's only one (maybe two) biomes.

 

[ls612]

Redwoods? I am on the fence. Someone else decide.
Moor? Make it a feature.
Scrub? Keep it (but possibly call it Chaparral... see "Arid").
Arid? No good ideas except maybe "Dry shrubs." Could use some help here. Perhaps we can call "scrub" Chaparral and Arid scrub. Actually, I kind of like that idea.
Polar Desert or Permafrost? I don't really care... I guess Permafrost by default.
Desert? I am on the fence here too. Right now I lean more toward making dunes and sand desert a single terrain.

1. Redwoods are the Prime Timber resource IMO, so I'd say no on that.
2. Moor can be a feature.
3. Yes, keeping scrub is fine.
4. We have 3 desert types already (Desert, Dunes, and Salt Flats) so I'd say no on Arid.
5. Permafrost can stay, and the Polar Desert is really what the Ice terrain is now from what I can tell.
6. See above for my opinions on Desert.

 

[primem0ver]

Great... your opinion is noted. Just one issue:

4. We have 3 desert types already (Desert, Dunes, and Salt Flats) so I'd say no on Arid.

This isn't a vote on what to include. It is a vote on what to call it. Arid is not the same as desert and it is not an option since it refers to a distinct soil terrain that is separate from desert. (It is actually similar to scrub). Examples of "Arid" topography are Western Colorado; Utah, particularly northeastern Utah (Part of Utah IS desert); and Idaho.

 

[ls612]

This isn't a vote on what to include. It is a vote on what to call it. Arid is not the same as desert and it is not an option since it refers to a distinct soil terrain that is separate from desert. (It is actually similar to scrub). Examples of "Arid" topography are Western Colorado; Utah, particularly northeastern Utah (Part of Utah IS desert); and Idaho.

Oh, if it is just a matter of naming I'd choose to rename Desert to Arid. Sorry about the misunderstanding.

 

[primem0ver]

I think some pictures of what I mean by "Arid" are in order so people understand the type of topography I am referring too. The basic point is that trees and extensive shrubbery do not exist on "Desert" topography. Yet they are reasonably common in "Arid" topography.

A classic shot of "Arid" topography:

A little artificial grassland but still... much of it is natural.

Near Capitol Reef NP. Part of the Colorado Plateau

 

[ls612]

@primem0ver:

OK, that is what I would consider the Scrub and Rocky terrains in C2C to be.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Laskaris

I'm not sure about a couple of things there. I think that, with "evergreen forest soil", primem0ver has broadleaf evergreen forest in mind. Taiga would have boreal forest soil in his model, I think.

A "Permafrost" terrain does not make much sense to me because it is such a generic term. You can find permafrost soil under boreal forests, under tundra, under polar ice caps or under dry polar deserts. So I would use those as terrains and not have a separate "permafrost" terrain.

Ok fair enough. However unless we plan on breaking games all terrains in the mod will have to stay at least in tag name. I could see it used as Taiga then. Note that in the old system Taiga (aka snow pine forest) would just be a polar terrain + snowy pine terrain features rather than its own unique terrain.

@primem0ver

LOL. Hydro, you amuse me. Before you were arguing against adding new soils and now you want to add them to the extent that I did in the beginning and decided not to because I could make do as people wanted. Anyway... let me explain some specifics and then we can decide.

Well if we are going to add terrains we might as well go all the way and use the system I have used before. When making the original terrains I wanted to keep it minimal. But sicne your system could generate complex climates then I would like to use the Sagan 4 biome method.

There are four forests floors currently planned that in my opinion are the minimum necessary:
Tropical Rainforest Soil (obvious)
Evergreen Forest Soil (evergreen and all but extreme alpine forests)
Seasonal Forest Soil (redwood, deciduous, other broadleaf, and mixed forest)
Boreal Forest Soil (Polar) (what Hydro is calling Tiaga forest and extreme alpine forest)

In addition to these, in the beginning I actually did want to make one more: Redwood forest floor since the soil has a different color. But with all the resistance to adding new soils in the beginning I decided that functionally (and visually) the seasonal forest floor was close enough. I toyed with the color of the Mediterranean terrain texture from the terrains mod for the new redwood/seasonal forest floor texture. Do want to create a separate texture now for redwoods? It is the only one that really has a different enough color to justify a new texture.

Keep in mind that generally speaking, evergreen trees are not part of a rainforest. By nature they are generally part of drier forests. The only exception is redwoods redwoods make the fourth kind of rainforest in existence (the others being tropical, deciduous, and the mixed type that occur in Virginia and some of the other southeast states... which is why I want someone to make a mixed tree graphic).

Yes I would like there to be the 6 groups of terrains; Wetlands, Rainforost, Woodlands, Scrublands, Grasslands and Deserts. Which in turn are separated into the 4 temperature zones, Tropical, Temperate, Polar and Mountain (aka high elevation).

Here is an updated list ...

Wetlands
- Swamp (Tropical) = Marsh
- Marsh (Temperate) = Muddy
- Bog (Polar) = New
- Moor (Mountain) = New

Rainforest
- Tropical Rainforest (Tropical) = Tropical Rainforest Soil
- Temperate Rainforest (Temperate) = Seasonal Forest Soil
- Taiga (Polar) = Permafrost
- Alpine (Mountain) = Ice

Woodland
- Tropical Woodland (Tropical) = New
- Temperate Woodland (Temperate) = New
- Polar Woodland (Polar) = Evergreen Forest Soil
- Boreal (Mountain) = Boreal Forest Soil

Scrubland
- Tropical Scrub (Tropical) = Arid
- Chaparral (Temperate) = Scrub
- Polar Scrub (Polar) = New
- Rocky (Mountain) = Rocky

Grassland
- Savanna (Tropical) = (Regular/Monsoon) Grassland
- Grassland (Temperate) = Grassland
- Plains (Polar) = Prairie (Plains)
- High Grassland (Mountain) = New

Desert
- Dunes (Tropical) = Dunes
- Desert (Temperate) = Desert
- Tundra (Polar) = Tundra
- High Desert (Mountain) = Barren

Special
- Lush = Lush (Terraform Only)
- Volcanic = Volcanic
- Salt Flats = Salt Flats

As you can see each of the 6 main groups has the 4 types. Plus Lush, Volcanic and Salt Flats being special cases.

Unnecessary because "polar scrub" is the same as tundra.

I would disagree since it would have mid range scrub in a polar environment.

Savanna (Tropical) and Mediterranean = (Regular/Monsoon) Grassland Seasonal Grass

"Mediterranean" was moved up to mid range vegetation under "Chaparral".

- Grassland and Monsoon = (Temperate) = Grassland

I thought savanna type of terrains go the monoons. Like in Africa or India.

- Steppe = (Mountain) = NewThis is already accounted for with "Prairie", "Black Soil", and "Arid" which we can call something else if we want.

Call it what you want its Grassland + Elevation. I originally called it "High Grassland" I personally like that name better.

- Black Soil grassland

Shouldn't black solid go under Volcanic?

- High Desert (Mountain) = Barren Barren and Permafrost are the same. I plan on using the Barren texture since "Permafrost" fits Boreal Forest better.

We can always make new textures. This would be like Nevada where its very high elevation but also very arid.

Forest
Do we want to add "redwood"?

As I said earlier I would like to have 4 types in each category. And Temperate Rainforest (aka Redwoods) would be a key biome type. Note I think they have the same biome in Japan and New Zealand too. even if its doesn't have redwood trees.

Marsh
Do we need a "Moor"?

This is for High Elevation wetlands.

Scrubland
Are we keeping "Scrub"? (It looks like we are... personally I am for this but I just thought I would ask).
What do we want to call the "Arid" terrain?

Scrubland as a category is the mid range vegetation types. Some trees, some grass but mostly shrubs. And Arid i think is too broad of a term. The old Scrub is now spread across this group. The graphic would probably be Tropical Scrub or Chaparral. Same for the arid graphic.

Polar
What do we want to call the "Polar Desert"? Permafrost or Polar Desert?

Sorry polar desert is Tundra. Just to be clear. I moved Permafrost and Ice up to other biomes but they can be renamed.

EDIT:
Desert
Do we need a separate "desert"? If it is simply going to be a flat "dunes"? I really don't think the movement cost would be different between them...plain sand is still difficult to move through whether it is in hills or not.... but that is just my opinion.

Well I had a separation of Tropical vs Temperate vs Polar vs Mountain. Dunes (Tropical) would be like the Sahara, Desert (Temperate) would be like Arizona, Tundra (Polar) would be like Alaska and High Desert (Mountain) would be like Nevada.

@strategyonly

He grows on you, doesnt he, just like a rash

Thanks.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Either way, I agree... if you want to express an opinion, hurry because now is your chance. Its time for your vote. The decision closes after tomorrow. As it stands here are my positions:

Redwoods? I am on the fence. Someone else decide.
Moor? Make it a feature.
Scrub? Keep it (but possibly call it Chaparral... see "Arid").
Arid? No good ideas except maybe "Dry shrubs." Could use some help here. Perhaps we can call "scrub" Chaparral and Arid scrub. Actually, I kind of like that idea.
Polar Desert or Permafrost? I don't really care... I guess Permafrost by default.
Desert? I am on the fence here too. Right now I lean more toward making dunes and sand desert a single terrain.

I would very much like to have it the way below. Mainly because its so uniform it how its set up. Names and xisting terrain asside it would be ...

Wetlands
- Wetland + Tropical
- Wetland + Temperate
- Wetland + Polar
- Wetland + Mountain

Rainforest
- Rainforest + Tropical
- Rainforest + Temperate
- Rainforest + Polar
- Rainforest + Mountain

Woodland
- Woodland + Tropical
- Woodland + Temperate
- Woodland + Polar
- Woodland + Mountain

Scrubland
- Scrubland + Tropical
- Scrubland+ Temperate
- Scrubland + Polar
- Scrubland + Mountain

Grassland
- Grassland + Tropical
- Grassland + Temperate
- Grassland + Polar
- Grassland + Mountain

Desert
- Desert + Tropical
- Desert + Temperate
- Desert + Polar
- Desert + Mountain

Special
- Lush
- Volcanic
- Salt Flats

Similar to this ...

But more like this ...

| Tropical | Temperate | Polar | Mountain Wetlands |Swamp|Marsh|Bog|Moor
Rainforest |Tropical Rainforest|Temperate Rainforest|Taiga|Alpine
Woodland |Tropical Woodland|Temperate Woodland|Polar Woodland|Boreal
Scrubland |Tropical Scrub|Chaparral|Polar Scrub|Rocky
Grassland |Savanna|Grassland|Plains|High Grassland
Desert |Dunes|Desert|Tundra|High Desert

EDIT: Note that if you have to combine Polar and Mountain then I would say for names ...

Wetland = Bog
Rainforest = Taiga
Woodland = Boreal
Scrubland = Rocky
Grassland = Plains
Desert = Tundra

EDIT2: Also since there would be both a Swamp terrain feature and Swap terrain I would have the terrain feature renamed to "Reeds" or "Cattails".

However I am not sure what I would rename the Savanna terrain feature.

 

[primem0ver]

I would disagree since it would have mid range scrub in a polar environment.

The way this will be handled will make more sense once you see it.

"Mediterranean" was moved up to mid range vegetation under "Chaparral".

I made no such move. Mediterranean is a grassland with sparse trees. Very much like Savanna. Period. I lived in a Mediterranean climate for nearly 2 years and I know what it is like. We can call it Chaparral IF we don't call the drier version that occurs a couple hundred miles inland "Chaparral."

I thought savanna type of terrains go the monoons. Like in Africa or India.

Nope. There is a distinct difference. Savanna = Think "Africa" where it isn't desert. For Monsoon, think North Philippines, Northern Brazil, Central Vietnam (some of vietnam actually is savanna as well so that might be confusing). It is sort of halfway between tropical rainforest and savannah. Much like subtropical in appearance only much warmer.

Shouldn't black solid go under Volcanic?

No. While they may look similar, they are very different. Volcanic soil is dark because of the high presence of iron and magnesium. Black Soil is dark because it has a lot of Humus (organic remains).

Though strictly speaking Volcanic soil can be of many different types. The main difference is that it adds a plethora of non-organic nutrients that don't ordinarily exist in any soil except desert soil. But with desert soil, the iron and magnesium are oxidized making it much lighter and redder.

As I said earlier I would like to have 4 types in each category.

Why? Not that I disagree (or agree for that matter)... I am just curious as to your reasoning.

Scrubland as a category is the mid range vegetation types. Some trees, some grass but mostly shrubs. And Arid i think is too broad of a term. The old Scrub is now spread across this group. The graphic would probably be Tropical Scrub or Chaparral. Same for the arid graphic.

Ok... so dry Mediterranean... that's what I thought. Thanks.

Sorry polar desert is Tundra. Just to be clear. I moved Permafrost and Ice up to other biomes but they can be renamed.

Actually not necessarily. Laskaris is correct here. While some biome classification systems count these as the same, I understand why Laskaris does not. Tundra doesn't have to be frozen solid ground. Polar Desert is the part of Tundra that is. It is basically any truly polar region that is not next to water. But not all Tundra is frozen at the surface. Some Tundra has it's permafrost buried beneath the top layer(s).

Thanks Hydro for the rest of your vote.

 

[primem0ver]

But more like this ...

| Tropical | Temperate | Polar | Mountain Wetlands |Swamp|Marsh|Bog|Moor
Rainforest |Tropical Rainforest|Temperate Rainforest|Taiga|Alpine
Woodland |Tropical Woodland|Temperate Woodland|Polar Woodland|Boreal
Scrubland |Tropical Scrub|Chaparral|Polar Scrub|Rocky
Grassland |Savanna|Grassland|Plains|High Grassland
Desert |Dunes|Desert|Tundra|High Desert

AHA! Now I understand your obsession with four. Unfortunately nature isn't always that neatly packaged. Four will be the average but there will be some with five and some with three.

 

[Hydromancerx]

AHA! Now I understand your obsession with four. Unfortunately nature isn't always that neatly packaged. Four will be the average but there will be some with five and some with three.

As I said in my edit above ...

Note that if you have to combine Polar and Mountain then I would say for names ...

Wetland = Bog
Rainforest = Taiga
Woodland = Boreal
Scrubland = Rocky
Grassland = Plains
Desert = Tundra

I am fine with only having Tropical, Temperate and Polar where Polar covers high elevation regions.

Which ones would have 5 and which ones 3?

 

[Hydromancerx]

Nope. There is a distinct difference. Savanna = Think "Africa" where it isn't desert. For Monsoon, think North Philippines, Northern Brazil, Central Vietnam (some of vietnam actually is savanna as well so that might be confusing). It is sort of halfway between tropical rainforest and savannah. Much like subtropical in appearance only much warmer.

Then that would fit either under Tropical Woodland or Tropical Scrubland.

No. While they may look similar, they are very different. Volcanic soil is dark because of the high presence of iron and magnesium. Black Soil is dark because it has a lot of Humus (organic remains).

Though strictly speaking Volcanic soil can be of many different types. The main difference is that it adds a plethora of non-organic nutrients that don't ordinarily exist in any soil except desert soil. But with desert soil, the iron and magnesium are oxidized making it much lighter and redder.

I think I know what you mean. My home is on top of what was once a lake bed and we have dark adobe soil. Is that what you mean? Note if the like was still here then the sounding land would be a mixture of scrub and marshland (think La Brea Tarpits).

Why? Not that I disagree (or agree for that matter)... I am just curious as to your reasoning.

it can be 3 but I think you see why from your later post.

Actually not necessarily. Laskaris is correct here. While some biome classification systems count these as the same, I understand why Laskaris does not. Tundra doesn't have to be frozen solid ground. Polar Desert is the part of Tundra that is. It is basically any truly polar region that is not next to water. But not all Tundra is frozen at the surface. Some Tundra has it's permafrost buried beneath the top layer(s).

Thanks Hydro for the rest of your vote.

Well I would like us to come to an agreement rather than a vote. Some middle ground where we both are happy. I think I have come a long way to the middle to make this work. Please try to do the same.

 

[primem0ver]

No offense but your table doesn't work for several categories, simply because the soils don't follow your system.

Numbers other than 4...
Wetlands = 2. Features will make the difference here
Desert = 2-3 (unless you want to count permafrost/barren as one, that makes 3-4).
Scrubland = 3-4 (scrub fits into scrubland and desert.)

Actually... now that I have worked it out, none are 5.

 

[primem0ver]

Then that would fit either under Tropical Woodland or Tropical Scrubland...

Well I would like us to come to an agreement rather than a vote. Some middle ground where we both are happy. I think I have come a long way to the middle to make this work. Please try to do the same.

Sorry Hydro. I don't mean to rain on your parade. Nice packages are nice. I like them too. But unfortunately your system of four is contrived. Please do not take this personally, I am simply being educational. Reality doesn't follow that system and as a result, I am not going to make changes to fit that system. I am going to make changes to make sure we have a happy medium between function and aesthetics.

To take an extreme example... your wetlands choices. There are really only 2 different types of "soil terrains" that exist for wetlands, even in your list of descriptions: marsh and mud. And technically, mud isn't necessarily a wetland. So that leaves only one true wetland soil terrain.

For all variations, it is a matter of macro- vegetation as I have been calling it.
Swamp = marsh soil + mangroves (or other jungle like vegetation)
Marsh = marsh soil (occasional peat bog)
Bog = marsh soil + peat bog. It just so happens that the marsh soil freezes for part of the year. And technically, marshlands do not exist in polar regions except where a warm tropical current changes the polar environment to a Marine Biome.
Moor? Moor = marsh that occurs at higher eleveations but it is not a different biome or a different soil from typical marshland. (pictures of a moor look exactly like a coastal marsh)

If we are going to be brutally honest about things... highlands are not a separate category at all. Highland biomes are the same as sea level biomes. Highland soils are the same as sea level soils. Altitude is simply another cause of cooler temperatures.

If we had a very high mountain range sticking out of a tropical rainforest for example, we would see the following progression of biomes as we went up the ocean side (windward side):

Tropical rainforest
Subtropical rainforest
Deciduous rainforest
Temperate (evergreen) rainforest
---snowline---
Boreal forest
Ice

And on the other side coming down from the top on the leeward side (much drier side...) we would see the following biomes/vegetation regions as we descend:

Tundra,
---snowline---
Prairie (in temperature, soil, and grass only... not actual plains),
Chaparral
Scrub
Desert

So technically speaking, your fourth category of hghlands soil terrains doesn't exist and there should only be three (assuming the other categories actually work). The soils are the same as their flat-lands counterparts.

 

[Hydromancerx]

If we are going to be brutally honest about things... highlands are not a separate category at all. Highland biomes are the same as sea level biomes. Highland soils are the same as sea level soils. Altitude is simply another cause of cooler temperatures.

Well in one of your proposals you had "Alpine" which is why I was assuming you wanted to separate elevation from polar. But I am fine in combining them into one. Where say Ice or Permafrost terrain can appear in high elevations as well as polar latitudes.

For all variations, it is a matter of macro- vegetation as I have been calling it.
Swamp = marsh soil + mangroves (or other jungle like vegetation)
Marsh = marsh soil (occasional peat bog)
Bog = marsh soil + peat bog. It just so happens that the marsh soil freezes for part of the year. And technically, marshlands do not exist in polar regions except where a warm tropical current changes the polar environment to a Marine Biome.
Moor? Moor = marsh that occurs at higher eleveations but it is not a different biome or a different soil from typical marshland. (pictures of a moor look exactly like a coastal marsh)

For a moment lets assume Moor and Bog are the same. I was talking about mostly temperature. Where Swamp in in tropical zone, Marsh is in temperate zones and bog is in cold zones. What vegetation was not really important to them. Be it a Mangroves, Everglades, Fens, Bayou, Estuary, Delta, etc.

So technically speaking, your fourth category of hghlands soil terrains doesn't exist and there should only be three (assuming the other categories actually work). The soils are the same as their flat-lands counterparts.

I am fine with a 3 category system. Infact it makes naming much easier if we do. And the current system uses that when making maps like PW2F where high elevation zones make Permafrost or Tundra near Peaks in tropical zones.

| Tropical | Temperate | Polar/Mountain Wetlands |Swamp|Marsh|Bog
Rainforest |Tropical Rainforest|Temperate Rainforest|Taiga
Woodland |Tropical Woodland|Temperate Woodland|Boreal
Scrubland |Tropical Scrub|Chaparral|Rocky
Grassland |Savanna|Grassland|Plains
Desert |Dunes|Desert|Tundra