Geo Realism: Discussion on a new SDK based map generator

[Laskaris]

Yes... I am very familiar with this type of soil and I know where it is located in Asia and America (though I was not as familiar with other continents). I have added it and am currently calling it "black soil." I agreed to keep the "lush" as a terraformed only soil rather than converting or removing it.

I am less sure about the type of soil that would be found in the nile delta or along the nile river. So apparently it is different but you agree with the "super flood plain" idea. Will do.

The mollisol or "black earth soil" gains its fertility from all the grasses that die off and form layer after layer of humus. The Nile delta, by contast, gains its fertility from the Nile mud which is transported from the Ethiopian highlands down the river and placed there with the seasonal Nile flood.

Maybe we could have two different kinds of flood plains as features, one regular one and one super-fertile one for places like the Nile? In any case, I think these should be features rather than terrains.

Actually a better way to put this is to use the terms "plains", "scrub" "arid" the way I am using them. Mediterranean and savanna grasses (what I am calling seasonal grasses) are not patchy and don't belong in this category. They are consistently omnipresent within those regions. I suggested combining arid and scrub into one soil before and people did not like it. I am willing to go either way. But plains is something different. As I mentioned earlier, plains are "Prairie" and they are distinct and separate from "Arid"/"Scrub".

I thought that "prarie" is simply the American term for a steppe, and that the praries of North America are not all that different from the steppe grasslands in Asia. Here we have prarie in South Dakota:

And here the steppe in Mongolia:

(Pictures from Wikipedia, free for distribution)

What exactly is "prarie" supposed to represent in your model, and how does it differ from other grasslands?

I think the various grasslands and shrubs might need a little bit more work, but otherwise I like the last list you posted a lot.

Barren/Permafrost (Polar Desert)

I think "Polar Desert" would be the clearest term for that terrain. "Permafrost" isn't quite accurate because permafrost soil also exists under some vegetation types like tundra or boreal forest, not just underneath polar desert.

 

[primem0ver]

I thought that "prarie" is simply the American term for a steppe

No. At least not when we are talking about the BSk (steppe) climate. Basically your pictures are pretty much accurate though. Here is what I picture when I think of "Prairie" but here combined with your pictures we do see the similarity between Prairie and Mediterranean grasses... being that they are seasonally green.

This website has the ideal pictures that I think of when I think of prairie but they (the actual pictures) are too big to fit in this post:
http://www.brendansadventures.com/prairie-waves/

In a strict sense there is no "bare plain" like the "plain" portrayed in Civ4 graphics unless we are talking about an Arid/Steppe environment. But I honestly think the prairie, and even seasonal (red) grass environments is what the "plains" terrain was supposed to portray in Vanilla Civ 4.

With our detailed soil terrains, perhaps the "plains" terrain is redundant given our black soil and red (seasonal) soil terrains. But I was thinking of using it for semi-arid grassy regions such as the ones shown in the above pictures and I am reluctant to remove it...

 

[ls612]

@Primem0ver:

Great stuff so far, I just have a few questions.

1. I think that the terrain yields need to be determined from a balance point of view, not merely from the scientific calculations that you ran. Those are a really good base to work off of, but a couple looked a bit too good and could possible imbalance starts for different civs. I do like the list of changes I'm seeing so far.
2. The GeoRealism map layers will be off by default, right? I ask because while I understand their scientific interest and value I can also see that many would like to ignore them during an average game of C2C and just have fun, as SO likes to put it.
3. I'll defer my comments about specific terrain definitions until I see maps generated by this ingame.
4. Is this at all multi-threaded? What sort of generation times are we looking at for Enormous or Immense maps?

 

[primem0ver]

@Primem0ver:

Great stuff so far, I just have a few questions.

1. I think that the terrain yields need to be determined from a balance point of view, not merely from the scientific calculations that you ran. Those are a really good base to work off of, but a couple looked a bit too good and could possible imbalance starts for different civs. I do like the list of changes I'm seeing so far.
2. The GeoRealism map layers will be off by default, right? I ask because while I understand their scientific interest and value I can also see that many would like to ignore them during an average game of C2C and just have fun, as SO likes to put it.
3. I'll defer my comments about specific terrain definitions until I see maps generated by this ingame.
4. Is this at all multi-threaded? What sort of generation times are we looking at for Enormous or Immense maps?

1. (Not a question)
2. Yes. Map layers are off by default. They will be colored squares and work just like some of the other Globe View map layers so they would interfere with national colors if they were on all the time. Not to mention as I said earlier that they are not necessary for game play so there would be no point in having them on by default.
3. Ok
4. I am not sure that being multi-threaded would make a difference. After all, it is something that needs to occur before the game starts. Periodic calculations done after the game starts could be potentially multi-threaded but those would be very rare (once every 10,000 years or so). I do not know how long they would take. My guess is up to five times the normal map creation time.

P.S. Thanks

 

[Hydromancerx]

No. At least not when we are talking about the BSk (steppe) climate. Basically your pictures are pretty much accurate though. Here is what I picture when I think of "Prairie" but here combined with your pictures we do see the similarity between Prairie and Mediterranean grasses... being that they are seasonally green.

Prairie and Mediterranean are very different. For one it doesn't snow in the Mediterranean climate. Also it doesn't get nearly as hot either. California scrubland doesn't get nearly as cold or as hot as some place like the Great Plains or even the Mongolian Steppe.

Note that is not a desert either and is much wetter than that and doesn't get that hot either.

 

[ls612]

1. I am not sure that being multi-threaded would make a difference. After all, it is something that needs to occur before the game starts. Periodic calculations done after the game starts could be potentially multi-threaded but those would be very rare (once every 10,000 years or so). I do not know how long they would take. My guess is up to five times the normal map creation time.

P.S. Thanks

You may want to look at profiling that, because currently making an Immense (the largest Mapsize we can do without removing some limits in the DLL) PW3 map takes an hour now.

 

[primem0ver]

Prairie and Mediterranean are very different. For one it doesn't snow in the Mediterranean climate. Also it doesn't get nearly as hot either. California scrubland doesn't get nearly as cold or as hot as some place like the Great Plains or even the Mongolian Steppe.

Note that is not a desert either and is much wetter than that and doesn't get that hot either.

You are correct. All I am saying is that in both areas the grasses are seasonally green. Graphics wise they could be the same but I would prefer to keep the Prairie soil myself. Especially since the stats are a bit different. Keep in mind the point is not to have a different kind of soil for each biome. It is simply to cover all types of soils that are functionally and aesthetically very different from one another.

 

[primem0ver]

@Primem0ver:

1. I think that the terrain yields need to be determined from a balance point of view, not merely from the scientific calculations that you ran. Those are a really good base to work off of, but a couple looked a bit too good and could possible imbalance starts for different civs. I do like the list of changes I'm seeing so far.

I have thought about this statement. I considered it when doing the stats for each plot as well. I am open for discussion on terrain yields since I consider balance an important part of game play as well. Actually, that is why I made some of the changes I did even if I justified them by scientific reasons. Consider the following:

• Many of the "wet soil" numbers in the current georealism document are actually lower than current stats in C2C while...
• Many of the "dry soil" numbers in the current georealism document are a bit higher than current stats in C2C.
• If you look at even a physical map of earth, you can see that arid regions, while not large in the US are very large in other regions of the world. On large continent maps that match the Earth in scale, if those continents happen to fall between 15 and 30 degrees north or south, those large desert regions will dominate that part of the continent.
• Someone a little while back was worried that it would make it hard to find usable land. By increasing the value of drier soils, we make that land at least somewhat useable and there are some valid reasons to increase those stats.

I wont deny that a couple stats are elevated to the point of being a little too good. Seasonal grass, the new black soil, and Volcanic soil come to mind. However, these regions will be comparably smaller since their climates are not as wide spread. climates (at least in theory). As you say, it is best to wait and see how the maps turn out before figuring out exactly how to adjust the stats to be fair.

 

[Laskaris]

No. At least not when we are talking about the BSk (steppe) climate. Basically your pictures are pretty much accurate though. Here is what I picture when I think of "Prairie" but here combined with your pictures we do see the similarity between Prairie and Mediterranean grasses... being that they are seasonally green.

Well, the climate classifications I know don't distinguish between the North American Great Plains and the Central Asian steppes - under Köppen, for instance, they are both BS (semi-arid). And my textbook on General Geobotanics covers the Asian steppes and the North American prairie in the same chapter, under "Steppe Landscapes". There are pictures of brown Mongolian steppe that look exactly like the prairie pictures you posted.

I think the issue basically comes down to this: in the space of climates that are too dry for forests but too wet for deserts, various grasslands exist. In Africa, they are called savannas. In North America, prairies. In Asia, steppes. And yes, there are subdivisions within the grassland spectrum, with significant differences between them: some are wetter and some are drier, some are evergreen while some are only seasonally green, some lie in the tropics while others have frost in winter. But basically, they are all "grasslands" of one type or another.

The textbooks I know usually use a classification similar to this one:

Wet Savanna (tropical climate, no winter, fairly wet grasslands with patches of trees)
Dry Savanna (the dry variety of the above, no trees at all)
Grassland Steppe (temperate climate, has a winter season, fairly wet grasslands)
Dry Steppe (the dry variety of the above)

I believe the Grassland Steppe is the one that usually produces mollisols.

In addition, we might have something like "Mediterranean shrubland" (called "chapparal" in California) for those regions of the subtropical summer-dry ("Mediterranean") climate that are too dry for Mediterranean forests.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@primem0ver

Here is a list of C2C Terrain Features. I noticed your list only had a few listed. Note I did not included Lunar, Mars or Space terrain features.

= Food
= Production
= Commerce
= Movement
= Defense
= Health
= Air Pollution
= Water Pollution
X = Impassable

||||||||
Ancient Forest|1|1|0|2|+50%|+0.50|-6|0
Bamboo|0|2|0|2|+50%|0|-3|0
Burnt Forest|0|0|0|2|+25%|0|0|0
Cactus|1|-1|0|0|0%|0|-1|0
Caves|0|0|0|0|+50%|0|0|0
Coral Reef|0|0|1|2|+25%|0|0|-5
Crater|0|0|0|X|0%|0|0|0
Flood Plains|2|0|1|0|0%|-0.40|0|-5
Forest|0|1|0|2|+50%|+0.25|-5|0
Ice|0|0|0|3|0%|0|0|0
Jungle|-1|0|0|3|+50%|-0.20|-5|-4
Kelp|1|0|1|2|0%|0|-5|0
Mangrove|0|0|0|2|0%|0|-4|-5
New Forest|0|1|0|0|0%|+0.25|-4|0
Oasis|3|0|2|2|0%|0|0|0
Outcrop|0|0|0|2|+15%|0|0|0
Peat Bog|-1|0|1|3|+25%|-0.50|0|-5
Reef|-1|0|-1|5|0%|0|0|0
Savanna|0|1|1|0|+10%|+0.25|-4|0
Sea Grass|1|0|1|2|0%|0|-2|0
Swamp|-1|0|+1|3|+25%|-0.50|0|-5
Tarpit|0|1|0|X|0%|0|0|5
Very Tall Grass|1|0|0|0|+15%|+0.10|-2|0
Volcano (Active)|0|1|0|X|0%|0|10|0
Volcano (Dormant)|0|0|0|X|0%|0|5|0

Note that the Tarpit and Crater may change. There has been discussion to make it passable and put improvements on them.

 

[Hydromancerx]

In addition, we might have something like "Mediterranean shrubland" (called "chapparal" in California) for those regions of the subtropical summer-dry ("Mediterranean") climate that are too dry for Mediterranean forests.

Yeah last time i mentioned the word "chapparal" people gave me funny looks. I am not sure if this helps any but in my other project called "Sagan 4" where we build alien ecosystems I separated my biomes like this ...

Spoiler :

Marine

Vents = Volcanic + Sea Floor

Cold Seep = Seep + Sea Floor

Ocean (Trench Floor) = Trench + Sea Floor
Ocean (Trench Zone) = Trench + Open Water
Ocean (Trench Slope) = Trench + Sea Slope

Ocean (Abyss Floor) = Abyss + Sea Floor
Ocean (Abyss Zone) = Abyss + Open Water
Ocean (Abyss Slope) = Abyss + Sea Slope
Ocean (Abyss Sea Mount) = Abyss + Sea Mount

Ocean (Midnight Floor) = Midnight + Sea Floor
Ocean (Midnight Zone) = Midnight + Open Water
Ocean (Midnight Slope) = Midnight + Sea Slope
Ocean (Midnight Sea Mount) = Midnight + Sea Mount

Ocean (Twilight Floor) = Twilight + Sea Floor
Ocean (Twilight Zone) = Twilight + Open Water
Ocean (Twilight Slope) = Twilight + Sea Slope
Ocean (Twilight Sea Mount) = Twilight + Sea Mount

Tropical Ocean (Sunlight Zone) = Sunlight + Open Water + Tropical
Temperate Ocean (Sunlight Zone) = Sunlight + Open Water + Temperate
Polar Ocean (Sunlight Zone) = Sunlight + Open Water + Polar

Tropical Shallows = Sunlight + Sea Mount + Tropical
Temperate Shallows = Sunlight + Sea Mount + Temperate
Polar Shallows = Sunlight + Sea Mount + Polar

Tropical Sea = Sunlight + Sea Floor + Tropical
Temperate Sea = Sunlight + Sea Floor + Temperate
Polar Sea = Sunlight + Sea Floor + Polar

Tropical Bay = Sunlight + Sea Floor + Tropical
Temperate Bay = Sunlight + Sea Floor + Temperate
Polar Bay = Sunlight + Sea Floor + Polar

Tropical Coast = Sunlight + Sea Floor + Tropical
Temperate Coast = Sunlight + Sea Floor + Temperate
Polar Coast = Sunlight + Sea Floor + Polar

Ice Sheet = Sunlight + Open Water + Glacial

Land

Glacier = Lowland + Glacial
Peak = Highland + Glacial

Tropical Beach = Beach + Tropical
Temperate Beach = Beach + Temperate
Polar Beach = Beach + Polar
Glacial Beach = Beach + Glacial

Tropical River = Freshwater + Tropical
Temperate River = Freshwater + Temperate
Polar River = Freshwater + Polar
Mountain River = Freshwater + Mountain
Glacial River = Freshwater + Glacial

Tropical Salt River = Saltwater + Tropical
Temperate Salt River = Saltwater + Temperate
Polar Salt River = Saltwater + Polar
Mountain Salt River = Saltwater + Mountain

Tropical Lake = Freshwater + Tropical
Temperate Lake = Freshwater + Temperate
Polar Lake = Freshwater + Polar
Glacial Lake = Freshwater + Glacial

Tropical Salt Lake = Saltwater + Tropical
Temperate Salt Lake = Saltwater + Temperate
Polar Salt Lake = Saltwater + Polar
Mountain Salt Lake = Saltwater + Mountain

Tropical Salt Flats = Tropical + Salt Flats
Temperate Salt Flats = Temperate + Salt Flats
Polar Salt Flats = Polar + Salt Flats
Mountain Salt Flats = Mountain + Salt Flats

Tropical Riparian = Flood Plain + Tropical
Temperate Riparian = Floor Plain + Temperate
Polar Riparian = Flood Plain + Polar
Mountain Riparian = Flood Plain + Mountain

Tropical Salt Riparian = Salt Flood Plain + Tropical
Temperate Salt Riparian = Salt Floor Plain + Temperate
Polar Salt Riparian = Salt Flood Plain + Polar
Mountain Salt Riparian = Salt Flood Plain + Polar

Swamp = Wetland + Tropical
Marsh = Wetland + Temperate
Bog = Wetland + Polar
Moor = Wetland + Mountain

Salt Swamp = Salt Wetland + Tropical
Salt Marsh = Salt Wetland + Temperate
Salt Bog = Salt Wetland + Polar
Salt Moor = Salt Wetland + Mountain

Tropical Rainforest = Rainforest + Tropical
Temperate Rainforest = Rainforest + Temperate
Taiga = Rainforest + Polar
Alpine = Rainforest + Mountain

Tropical Woodland = Woodland + Tropical
Temperate Woodland = Woodland + Temperate
Boreal = Woodland + Mountain

Tropical Scrub = Scrubland + Tropical
Chaparral = Scrubland + Temperate
Polar Scrub = Scrubland + Polar
Rocky = Scrubland + Mountain
Volcanic = Scrubland + Volcanic

Savanna = Grassland + Tropical
Plains = Grassland + Temperate
High Grassland = Grassland + Mountain

Dunes = Desert + Tropical
Desert = Desert + Temperate
Tundra = Desert + Polar
High Desert = Desert + Mountain

Ice Sea Cave = Sea Cave + Glacial
Limestone Sea Cave = Sea Cave + Limestone
Sandstone Sea Cave = Sea Cave + Sandstone
Volcanic Sea Cave = Sea Cave + Volcanic

Ice Cave = Cave + Glacial
Limestone Cave = Cave + Limestone
Sandstone Cave = Cave + Sandstone
Volcanic Cave = Cave + Volcanic

Ice Cavern = Cavern + Glacial
Limestone Cavern = Cavern + Limestone
Sandstone Cavern = Cavern + Sandstone
Volcanic Cavern = Cavern + Volcanic

Limestone Water Table = Water Table + Limestone
Sandstone Water Table = Water Table + Sandstone
Volcanic Water Table = Water Table + Volcanic

Atmosphere

Atmosphere (Troposphere) = Troposphere
Atmosphere (Stratosphere) = Stratosphere

I am not sure it helps you guys at all. Since when working on C2C I could not really apply this to that because there were terrains and terrain features.

And the core Idea I wanted to share was the separation into ...

Wetlands
Rainforest
Woodland
Scrubland
Grassland
Deserts

and

Tropical
Temperate
Polar
Mountain

As you can see it doesn't "jive" well with the terrains we have available in C2C. It it works very well for Sagan 4 and its alien ecosystems where things like "Pine" Forests don't exist because its made up of alien flora but still fill the same niche.

 

[primem0ver]

@primem0ver

Here is a list of C2C Terrain Features. I noticed your list only had a few listed.

Yes. That is because as explained in the word document (the PDF with the long title), Civ Features are effectively divided in the GeoRealism mod into 2-3 different categories. The list I provided only included the ones that directly had to do with vegetation.

@Laskaris
I have lived in Mediterranean and BSk environments. I have also traveled extensively through these and the Prairie regions (what you are calling grassland steppe). I know firsthand that there is a distinct difference between these areas and that they should belong to separate biomes even if they don't in most systems. In some versions of the Koppen system they do. I think the Trewartha system is a bit too broad in its classification of continental climates and I don't really like it that much as a result. The only part of it I like is that its broadness helps narrow down some of the cold-wet climates that Koppen had like 8 different varieties of (D climates). I also think that both systems are too broad in their classification of eastern non-tropical humid climates because they don't make a distinction between rainforests and humid grazing lands with a significant reduction in trees (such as western Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Missouri, Eastern Oklahoma, and central Texas).

One last thing to keep in mind. My intent is not to come up with separate soil for each biome. My intent is to come up with a set of soils and features that can be combined in various ways to create vegetations that represents the look and stats of each distinctive type of vegetation that can be encountered in the various biomes that exist. This means that some vegetations will be found in multiple biomes because in areas of transition, there is no clear cut line. This is the reason for my separating biomes into further regions of distinct probability (such as beach, coastal, inland). This is where the random factor will come in and make the landscape more variable.

I think this will create an accurate representation of the midwest because mollisol areas will be mixed with prairie areas.

 

[primem0ver]

As you can see it doesn't "jive" well with the terrains we have available in C2C. It it works very well for Sagan 4 and its alien ecosystems where things like "Pine" Forests don't exist because its made up of alien flora but still fill the same niche.

Actually, I think after the addition of this mod, you will see that C2C will jive very will with a system like that. Creating this kind of pairing is exactly the whole purpose of "vegetations," though I am not limiting one type of vegetation set to a biome. A biome can consist of several different sets (though they are usually similar).

I am very close to finalizing the list. Unless there are any serious objections I think the last list I posted will be the final one. Majority seems to be in favor of keeping "plains" or "prairies" so far. And I think for now I will keep the scrub soil since it can represent either my concept or something similar to Hydro's concept (the "drier" mediterranean zones that lie in mid-eastern California right before you get to the completely arid regions). Whichever we need more.

Once the list is finalized I can create a document explaining how vegetations work and how they will be integrated into each biome.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Yes. That is because as explained in the word document (the PDF with the long title), Civ Features are effectively divided in the GeoRealism mod into 2-3 different categories. The list I provided only included the ones that directly had to do with vegetation.

So Mangroves, Peat Bog, etc don't have to do with vegetation?

 

[primem0ver]

So Mangroves, Peat Bog, etc don't have to do with vegetation?

I completely missed Peat bog. And forgot mangroves. so they would be.... yes. I will put them in.

 

[Laskaris]

@ primem0ver: Oh, I don't doubt that one can always find further subdivisions within climate zones and biome types. I agree that Köppen and Trewartha are both pretty broad models. Their advantage is that they are simple and give you a good general overview (easier to keep track of than a model with 50+ different zones), the disadvantage is that some of the zones are a bit over-broad.

I think I'll have to see the whole soil / biome / vegetation model of the engine in action, and probably, everything I would like to have in there will be in there then, anyway!

As for the soils, I think your last list is fine except perhaps for some details of the nomenclature. For instance, I don't like the type "Arid" too much because all desert terrains are "arid", basically. Perhaps we can come up with a better name there.

Ecept for details like that, let's just got for it!

 

[Hydromancerx]

I am not so sure on whether a distinction between "(sand) desert" and "dunes" is necessary. One is sand desert without dunes, the other with dunes - but is there really a compelling reason to distinguish them in the gameplay?

Yes. Movement cost. its much easier to cross a Desert than it is to cross Sand Dunes. Likewise its a bit easier to cross Salt Flats than even Desert.

Other Factors are defense and how fast you can build improvements. Its much easier to build a house on a hard soil desert than it is to try to build it on a Sand Dune.

See my chart for what I mean.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Given my last posted agreements here is the updated version of the list above.

Forest Soil Terrains:
Tropical Rainforest Soil
Evergreen Forest Soil
Seasonal Forest Soil
Boreal Forest Soil (Polar)

Grassland Soil Terrains
(Regular/Monsoon) Grassland
Seasonal/Red Soil Grassland
Black Earth Grassland
Prairie (Plains)

Non-Polar Arid Soil Terrains
Arid
Rocky
Scrub* (I have suggested removing but will leave up to others).
Sandy/Dunes
Salt Flats

Polar Soil Terrains (non-forested)
Tundra
Barren/Permafrost (Polar Desert)
Ice

Others:
Volcanic
Marsh
Muddy
Lush (Terraform only)

Here would be my interpretation mixing your guys ideas with mine plus Sagan 4.

Wetlands
- Swamp (Tropical) = Marsh
- Marsh (Temperate) = Muddy
- Bog (Polar) = New
- Moor (Mountain) = New

Rainforest
- Tropical Rainforest (Tropical) = Tropical Rainforest Soil
- Temperate Rainforest (Temperate) = New (Think Redwoods)
- Taiga (Polar) = Evergreen Forest Soil
- Alpine (Mountain) = New

Woodland
- Tropical Woodland (Tropical) = New
- Temperate Woodland (Temperate) = Seasonal Forest Soil
- Boreal (Mountain) = Boreal Forest Soil

Scrubland
- Tropical Scrub (Tropical) = Arid
- Chaparral (Temperate) = Scrub
- Polar Scrub (Polar) = New
- Rocky (Mountain) = Rocky
- Volcanic (Volcanic) = Volcanic

Grassland
- Savanna (Tropical) = (Regular/Monsoon) Grassland
- Grassland = (Temperate) = Grassland
- Plains = (Polar) = Prairie (Plains)
- Steppe = (Mountain) = New

Desert
- Dunes (Tropical) = Dunes
- Desert (Temperate) = Desert
- Tundra (Polar) = Tundra
- Permafrost (Polar) = Permafrost
- Ice (Polar) = Ice
- High Desert (Mountain) = Barren
- Salt Flats = Salt Flats

Special
- Lush = Lush (Terraform Only)

 

[Laskaris]

Yes. Movement cost. its much easier to cross a Desert than it is to cross Sand Dunes. Likewise its a bit easier to cross Salt Flats than even Desert.

Other Factors are defense and how fast you can build improvements. Its much easier to build a house on a hard soil desert than it is to try to build it on a Sand Dune.

Well, the movement cost makes sense. I'm not sure that building a house in sand desert is easier than on a dune - I guess you would need rock desert to comfortably build a structure, and those are a separate terrain, anyway.

I guess the main issue I have with dunes is that they are such impermanent features. But no matter... I have no real objections against having such a terrain in the game.

Here would be my interpretation mixing your guys ideas with mine plus Sagan 4.

Wetlands
- Swamp (Tropical) = Marsh
- Marsh (Temperate) = Muddy
- Bog (Polar) = New
- Moor (Mountain) = New

Rainforest
- Tropical Rainforest (Tropical) = Tropical Rainforest Soil
- Temperate Rainforest (Temperate) = Seasonal Forest Soil
- Taiga (Polar) = Evergreen Forest Soil
- Alpine (Mountain) = New

Woodland
- Tropical Woodland (Tropical) = New
- Temperate Woodland (Temperate) = New
- Boreal (Mountain) = Boreal Forest Soil

Scrubland
- Tropical Scrub (Tropical) = Arid
- Chaparral (Temperate) = Scrub
- Polar Scrub (Polar) = New
- Rocky (Mountain) = Rocky
- Volcanic (Volcanic) = Volcanic

Grassland
- Savanna (Tropical) = (Regular/Monsoon) Grassland
- Grass = (Temperate) = Grass
- Plains = (Polar) = Prairie (Plains)
- Steppe = (Mountain) = New

Desert
- Dunes (Tropical) = Dunes
- Desert (Temperate) = Desert
- Tundra (Polar) = Tundra
- Permafrost (Polar) = Permafrost
- Ice (Polar) = Ice
- High Desert (Mountain) = Barren
- Salt Flats = Salt Flats

Special
- Lush = Lush (Terraform Only)

I'm not sure about a couple of things there. I think that, with "evergreen forest soil", primem0ver has broadleaf evergreen forest in mind. Taiga would have boreal forest soil in his model, I think.

A "Permafrost" terrain does not make much sense to me because it is such a generic term. You can find permafrost soil under boreal forests, under tundra, under polar ice caps or under dry polar deserts. So I would use those as terrains and not have a separate "permafrost" terrain.

 

[primem0ver]

LOL. Hydro, you amuse me. Before you were arguing against adding new soils and now you want to add them to the extent that I did in the beginning and decided not to because I could make do as people wanted. Anyway... let me explain some specifics and then we can decide.

Rainforest
- Tropical Rainforest (Tropical) = Tropical Rainforest Soil
- Temperate Rainforest (Temperate) = New (Think Redwoods)
- Taiga (Polar) = Evergreen Forest Soil
- Alpine (Mountain) = New

Woodland
- Tropical Woodland (Tropical) = New
- Temperate Woodland (Temperate) = Seasonal Forest Soil
- Boreal (Mountain) = Boreal Forest Soil

I'm not sure about a couple of things there. I think that, with "evergreen forest soil", primem0ver has broadleaf evergreen forest in mind. Taiga would have boreal forest soil in his model, I think.

Yes. This is nearly accurate

There are four forests floors currently planned that in my opinion are the minimum necessary:
Tropical Rainforest Soil (obvious)
Evergreen Forest Soil (evergreen and all but extreme alpine forests)
Seasonal Forest Soil (redwood, deciduous, other broadleaf, and mixed forest)
Boreal Forest Soil (Polar) (what Hydro is calling Tiaga forest and extreme alpine forest)

In addition to these, in the beginning I actually did want to make one more: Redwood forest floor since the soil has a different color. But with all the resistance to adding new soils in the beginning I decided that functionally (and visually) the seasonal forest floor was close enough. I toyed with the color of the Mediterranean terrain texture from the terrains mod for the new redwood/seasonal forest floor texture. Do want to create a separate texture now for redwoods? It is the only one that really has a different enough color to justify a new texture.

Keep in mind that generally speaking, evergreen trees are not part of a rainforest. By nature they are generally part of drier forests. The only exception is redwoods redwoods make the fourth kind of rainforest in existence (the others being tropical, deciduous, and the mixed type that occur in Virginia and some of the other southeast states... which is why I want someone to make a mixed tree graphic).

A "Permafrost" terrain does not make much sense to me because it is such a generic term. You can find permafrost soil under boreal forests, under tundra, under polar ice caps or under dry polar deserts. So I would use those as terrains and not have a separate "permafrost" terrain.

While it is true Laskaris that permafrost refers to a ground's state of being rather than an actual soil type, it often gets used the same way Hydro is using it, even by me. I think that we should use either Permafrost or Polar Desert for this particular ground type. Personally, I like the term permafrost... but whatever. Like I said I don't really care about terms, as long as I have the "soils" I need to work with.

Here would be my interpretation mixing your guys ideas with mine plus Sagan 4.

Wetlands
- Swamp (Tropical) = Marsh
- Marsh (Temperate) = Muddy
- Bog (Polar) = New
- Moor (Mountain) = New

What exactly is a moor? And is it a new soil type? Or should it be a feature? Bog is unnecessary as it is a feature. Lets not mix features into this discussion. We can always add features ad infinitum. The same is not true for terrains since that involves a lot of xml. So lets get the terrains down. Then we'll worry about features.

I will make my recommendations regarding the rest using the quote below; I will make corrections and simply comment in the quote

Scrubland
- Tropical Scrub (Tropical) = Arid
- Chaparral (Temperate) = Scrub
- Polar Scrub (Polar) = New Unnecessary because "polar scrub" is the same as tundra.
- Rocky (Mountain) = Rocky
- Volcanic (Volcanic) = Volcanic

Grassland
- Savanna (Tropical) and Mediterranean = (Regular/Monsoon) Grassland Seasonal Grass
- Grassland and Monsoon = (Temperate) = Grassland
- Plains = (Polar) = Prairie (Plains)
- Steppe = (Mountain) = NewThis is already accounted for with "Prairie", "Black Soil", and "Arid" which we can call something else if we want.
- Black Soil grassland

Desert
- Dunes (Tropical) = Dunes
- Desert (Temperate) = Desert
- Tundra (Polar) = Tundra
- Permafrost (Polar) = Permafrost
- Ice (Polar) = Ice
- High Desert (Mountain) = Barren Barren and Permafrost are the same. I plan on using the Barren texture since "Permafrost" fits Boreal Forest better.
- Salt Flats = Salt Flats

Special
- Lush = Lush (Terraform Only)

So basically there you have it. Lets discuss these last few and then get things under way. The ones we still need to discuss are:

Forest
Do we want to add "redwood"?

Marsh
Do we need a "Moor"?

Scrubland
Are we keeping "Scrub"? (It looks like we are... personally I am for this but I just thought I would ask).
What do we want to call the "Arid" terrain?

Polar
What do we want to call the "Polar Desert"? Permafrost or Polar Desert?

EDIT:
Desert
Do we need a separate "desert"? If it is simply going to be a flat "dunes"? I really don't think the movement cost would be different between them...plain sand is still difficult to move through whether it is in hills or not.... but that is just my opinion.