Germany - Rework needed?
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NotSure
King
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It's definitely an interesting idea. I've seen it mentioned before, but with a suggestion that their units also cost more maintenance (an idea I don't like). The only question I would have is how would it effect the AI? With the policy in Honor, exactly how much XP would a melee unit earn with each attack and how often would promotions come? The German AI already makes great use of Landsknecht spam at higher difficulties and I'm wondering whether a UA like this would turn their carpet of doom into insta-healing zombies.
I actually think the Chinese UA fits Germany just as well. But, if we can't give the same UA to two different civs, maybe something that boosts XP a little is the best alternative. Or maybe a barracks that provides twice the starting XP?
I'm also not ruling out that some of us just haven't figured out how to get the most out of Germany's UA & UU. But I haven't seen any evidence of someone leveraging the Landsknecht at higher difficulties in SP. I'm sure the same could be said of other UU such as the War Chariot, but civs like Egypt, Persia, Russia, etc., have so much more going for them than one mediocre UU. Germany doesn't.
Germany's UA is great, not sure why people are saying it sucks, the last immortal game I played I dominated with it. The trick is to go for an early iron rush, you don't actually have to train warriors so you can use your production to get your buildings/workers/wonders instead which is a massive plus; all you have to do is just train a scout and an archer or two then go hunting barbarians for the first 40 turns or so, then upgrade the free brutes when you get iron.
What I do is similar to something like Tabarnak's 4 city swords rush (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=448510) except take honour after getting the free settler from liberty instead of completing liberty straight away, then you can be notified when new barb camps turn up, and can start amassing an army of brutes (you'll also be getting a ton of culture from barb farming too). Once you get ironworking you upgrade all your brutes and then rush the nearest AI.
Go with the right side of honour instead of the left, since you'll soon get great general anyway from all the farming, go honour up to military caste so you can garrison all the spare free troops you got to cope with happiness. After that go back and finish off liberty, then you can take professional army for cheaper upgrades and the left side of piety to help even more with happiness (if you're not planning on upgrading soon you can take piety before professional army)
The key to this strategy is because you're not actually using your cities to train 5-6 warriors early on, you can actually afford to get more buildings and workers so you'll be much further ahead infrastructure wise than normally when you do an early swords rush. The military caste policy from honour scales amazingly well with germany's unique ability, you might even consider dipping 2 points into tradition for the free garrisoned units, although I found that money wasn't really a problem compared to happiness in my game so just focused on all the happiness policies instead.
What I do is similar to something like Tabarnak's 4 city swords rush (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=448510) except take honour after getting the free settler from liberty instead of completing liberty straight away, then you can be notified when new barb camps turn up, and can start amassing an army of brutes (you'll also be getting a ton of culture from barb farming too). Once you get ironworking you upgrade all your brutes and then rush the nearest AI.
Go with the right side of honour instead of the left, since you'll soon get great general anyway from all the farming, go honour up to military caste so you can garrison all the spare free troops you got to cope with happiness. After that go back and finish off liberty, then you can take professional army for cheaper upgrades and the left side of piety to help even more with happiness (if you're not planning on upgrading soon you can take piety before professional army)
The key to this strategy is because you're not actually using your cities to train 5-6 warriors early on, you can actually afford to get more buildings and workers so you'll be much further ahead infrastructure wise than normally when you do an early swords rush. The military caste policy from honour scales amazingly well with germany's unique ability, you might even consider dipping 2 points into tradition for the free garrisoned units, although I found that money wasn't really a problem compared to happiness in my game so just focused on all the happiness policies instead.
NotSure
King
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I think people say the UA sucks because many people convert very few, if any, barb camps. I've only used Germany once in an immortal game. I got two warriors in the early turns and a pikeman on an island somewhere in the mid 100's. And, yes, scouting was good and I went Honor early.
The two warriors were fairly useless because I rolled one of those "rare iron" maps. Only two city states had iron. One had 2 iron and the other had 6. There wasn't enough gold-exploit tricks in the world that could have got me allied to the one with 6 iron because there was a bidding war between Greece and China for that CS. The 2 Iron CS was conquered by the Mongols. So, I turtled away, climed the tech tree and used units available to every other civ to start conquering land.
Granted, this is limited experience on immortal, but I've played them on lower difficulties and been unimpressed there as well. The only other hit-and-miss unique abilities that I can think of are Spain's and the Ottoman's. Spain has Conquistadors and pretty powerful bonuses when their UA actually hits. The Ottomans are the only other civ that can out-suck Germany... IMHO.
The two warriors were fairly useless because I rolled one of those "rare iron" maps. Only two city states had iron. One had 2 iron and the other had 6. There wasn't enough gold-exploit tricks in the world that could have got me allied to the one with 6 iron because there was a bidding war between Greece and China for that CS. The 2 Iron CS was conquered by the Mongols. So, I turtled away, climed the tech tree and used units available to every other civ to start conquering land.
Granted, this is limited experience on immortal, but I've played them on lower difficulties and been unimpressed there as well. The only other hit-and-miss unique abilities that I can think of are Spain's and the Ottoman's. Spain has Conquistadors and pretty powerful bonuses when their UA actually hits. The Ottomans are the only other civ that can out-suck Germany... IMHO.
Its only good for 1 thing and never mind that the entire UA and Landsknect is simply unfluffy.
It doesn't fit Germany at all and it isn't even that good. The free warriors I can make use of
but the Landsknect not really they go obsolete too fast and take forever to upgrade.
Germany should get a bonus to science and XP put one in the UA and one in a Unique building.
It doesn't fit Germany at all and it isn't even that good. The free warriors I can make use of
but the Landsknect not really they go obsolete too fast and take forever to upgrade.
Germany should get a bonus to science and XP put one in the UA and one in a Unique building.
offtopic:Beaten Diety again today, with Babylon. =)
ontopic:
You know there is so much luck in the German UA and usually, the games are over even before tanks hit the battlefield. In fact, I can not remeber a single game, that even hit late industial times in the last months.
The landsknecht could get a bonus against land units for the price of beeing more expensive as a normal pikeman. What do you think?
ontopic:
You know there is so much luck in the German UA and usually, the games are over even before tanks hit the battlefield. In fact, I can not remeber a single game, that even hit late industial times in the last months.
The landsknecht could get a bonus against land units for the price of beeing more expensive as a normal pikeman. What do you think?
NotSure
King
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Congrats on the Deity win.
As far as this UA tweak is concerned, if I had to give a suggestion it would be something to add effectiveness to units. Either a UA that adds a % of XP to military training buildings (+33% so barracks, armory & military academy each adds 20 XP) and a small attack bonus (10%) to all melee units, or a UB that increases science. With the first option you can scrap the brute-gathering & unit cost reduction UA, with the second option you can scrap the Landsknecht.
But again, with more than a few people swearing that the current UA isn't bad, I'm willing to give it another go at an immortal game and see if I can put the UA and/or Landsknecht to good use. I'll reserve any further criticism until then.
As far as this UA tweak is concerned, if I had to give a suggestion it would be something to add effectiveness to units. Either a UA that adds a % of XP to military training buildings (+33% so barracks, armory & military academy each adds 20 XP) and a small attack bonus (10%) to all melee units, or a UB that increases science. With the first option you can scrap the brute-gathering & unit cost reduction UA, with the second option you can scrap the Landsknecht.
But again, with more than a few people swearing that the current UA isn't bad, I'm willing to give it another go at an immortal game and see if I can put the UA and/or Landsknecht to good use. I'll reserve any further criticism until then.
pat a cutie
Chieftain
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- Feb 5, 2012
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I just finished a game with Bismarck (emperor) after playing him for the first time - well, let's say .. after I got a general idea about the game.
The UA was barely noticable, I got one camp, but oh well it was free.
When the inevitable DoW's came, I could defend easily with a few Landsknechts that were tossed out just then - To that point, only two warriros were on the field for me.
In 3 turns there were 3 LK's and problem solved.
I was playing a medium sized tall empire and most of the time was 2nd in Army while still managing to pump out buildings for science win - Presumably the maintenance cost reduction helped there.
All in all, not bad but the UA is too luck dependant, I realize the randomness of it and that makes me not want to attack barbcamps at all, lol ... feels like you failed then, even tho it was just bad RNG luck
The UA was barely noticable, I got one camp, but oh well it was free.
When the inevitable DoW's came, I could defend easily with a few Landsknechts that were tossed out just then - To that point, only two warriros were on the field for me.
In 3 turns there were 3 LK's and problem solved.
I was playing a medium sized tall empire and most of the time was 2nd in Army while still managing to pump out buildings for science win - Presumably the maintenance cost reduction helped there.
All in all, not bad but the UA is too luck dependant, I realize the randomness of it and that makes me not want to attack barbcamps at all, lol ... feels like you failed then, even tho it was just bad RNG luck
Syailendra
Prince
The UA is good, it's not bad at all, what you really need is honour opening, and send your first warrior to the ice where barbs are plenty. Build 1 more warrior instead of scout, and start farming.
Irons tends to sprout on tundra, so your first warrior should find them for you.
Then do sword rush, LKs are not for offensive, they are useful for garrisons as they are cheap, and will give happiness with honour.
Do this and you'll probably waging an 8swordmen rush like i did a long time ago... Oh, such a wonderful time
Irons tends to sprout on tundra, so your first warrior should find them for you.
Then do sword rush, LKs are not for offensive, they are useful for garrisons as they are cheap, and will give happiness with honour.
Do this and you'll probably waging an 8swordmen rush like i did a long time ago... Oh, such a wonderful time
KillingMeSoftly
Warlord
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- Sep 11, 2011
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- 279
Germany's UA and UU benefit them throughout the game.
Early on the extra brutes are very useful. If you're lucky and collect many of them, you can perform some very early warmongering like wiping out a neighbouring city state. When you discover Iron these can be quickly upgraded to Swordsmen, saving you on actually producing Warriors to upgrade. This in turn lends to early dominance.
Pikemen are not strong units, and their key strength is the fact they are easy to produce (requires no special resources) and thus are ultimately expendable. It takes a long while before your Pikemen can upgrade to anything, so either they become potent through many upgrades or they are simple filler units. Germany takes this to heart with the half production cost of their Pikemen, making them a supurb filler and fodder unit. The fact they pay less for unit maintenance only adds to this.
Not a lot of people seem to consider late-game UUs as good because typically the game is "decided" by then, but that's not always the case for me. The Panzer builds on the core strength of the Tank; high combat power and mobility. What's not to love?
I suppose Germany's UA is anachronistic and as others mentioned perhaps more useful for Russia -- though a debate I won't get into. You can mimic the expertise of real-life German armies by going Honor (which meshes well with their UA) and later Autocracy, with even receive further unit maintenance reductions. All in all this makes the German military extremely powerful.
Germany doesn't have a highly exploitable ability like most top-tier civilizations, nor do they have an early game-winning unit like the best warmongers, but I do not feel Germany is weak at all. Just not favored because of those two factors. Germany is the strongest in the Industrial Era, with access to Panzers and Autocracy policies, and I feel thats fairly historically accurate.
Early on the extra brutes are very useful. If you're lucky and collect many of them, you can perform some very early warmongering like wiping out a neighbouring city state. When you discover Iron these can be quickly upgraded to Swordsmen, saving you on actually producing Warriors to upgrade. This in turn lends to early dominance.
Pikemen are not strong units, and their key strength is the fact they are easy to produce (requires no special resources) and thus are ultimately expendable. It takes a long while before your Pikemen can upgrade to anything, so either they become potent through many upgrades or they are simple filler units. Germany takes this to heart with the half production cost of their Pikemen, making them a supurb filler and fodder unit. The fact they pay less for unit maintenance only adds to this.
Not a lot of people seem to consider late-game UUs as good because typically the game is "decided" by then, but that's not always the case for me. The Panzer builds on the core strength of the Tank; high combat power and mobility. What's not to love?
I suppose Germany's UA is anachronistic and as others mentioned perhaps more useful for Russia -- though a debate I won't get into. You can mimic the expertise of real-life German armies by going Honor (which meshes well with their UA) and later Autocracy, with even receive further unit maintenance reductions. All in all this makes the German military extremely powerful.
Germany doesn't have a highly exploitable ability like most top-tier civilizations, nor do they have an early game-winning unit like the best warmongers, but I do not feel Germany is weak at all. Just not favored because of those two factors. Germany is the strongest in the Industrial Era, with access to Panzers and Autocracy policies, and I feel thats fairly historically accurate.
Germany is designed for one strategy thats warrior rush then carpet of doom.
Its boring, ineffective, and just plain unfluffy. What worse is their not even
especially good militarily. Ladsknechts are just useless except for a very narrow
window and take forever to upgrade. They actually had to change the UA so you
wouldn't bankrupt yourself playing Germany.
Its boring, ineffective, and just plain unfluffy. What worse is their not even
especially good militarily. Ladsknechts are just useless except for a very narrow
window and take forever to upgrade. They actually had to change the UA so you
wouldn't bankrupt yourself playing Germany.
Pax_Romanus
Chieftain
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2011
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- 85
Seriously, they should've replaced the Landsknecht with a UB; beer hall, replaces granary, +5 food, +1 happinnes. That would represent Germany well (Oktoberfest). 
TheMarshmallowBear
Benelovent Chieftain of the Ursu Kingdom
I really hate that unit, I was playing with a spouse of my friend (along with her) and the guy just spammed Landsknechts at me, it was annoying, I had to declare peace and give two of my cities to him.
omnishakira
Warlord
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- Aug 20, 2011
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- 142
Germany + honor = probably one of the easiest diety win u can have
I really dont understand how u guys can complain their UA is one of the best (at least on single player)
I really dont understand how u guys can complain their UA is one of the best (at least on single player)
I'd have to agree, some people don't like barb related UAs, but seriously with Germany you can easily amass a quick and economically friendly army. In terms of gold related UAs this is probably the strongest and the production can be spent towards infrastructure. Take Songhai for instance, the gold you get from raiding barb camps can't buy you a warrior or archer(although the gold has more flexibility on where it can be spent and doesn't include pillaging cities).
Also BC time wins are a joke with Germany and if you can't manage to win by then just bulb into rifling and if you have right side of honor then you'll have a huge army of riflemen. A very under rated UA. The lankershandt on the other hand I could deal without, their just plain horrible since this is the only UU where production is less than the unit it replaces and that's its only advantage.
omnishakira
Warlord
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- Aug 20, 2011
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Landsknecht is one of my fav UU lol. Its very very good when u got a good control
19Mellon73
Chieftain
I like the Landsknecht most for the crazy variations of the word, people come up with
It's not as complicated as it looks like. It's a "Lands Knight" - "Lands Knecht"
Actually wouldn't mind a UB either.
Something like a "Guild Hall" replacing the workshop or forge
Could have a synergy effect with library and/or market and/or other production buildings.
