Germany vs. Japan

[vmxa]

You could do that, you will lose 2 turns from the worker. I would get the hut later. You may get a map, gold other things, rather than a tech or settler. I rarely use the worker for that.

One time I may do it is in a game at emperor or better. DG is probably the best time for me. This is because huts are not very kind at those levels to non expansion nations. I would not be unhappy to get say 25 gold, rather than barbs right on top of me and I have maybe 1 warrior.

At regent the huts are going to be less of a problem and even if I get barbs, they are weaker at that level. You have a bonus that runs from 800 to 0. Regent has 200, so barbs are not going to do all that well.

 

[SleeperLv]

As to use of Govs, I just don't know anyone that plays serious that would not manage their own towns. There is a good reason for it, the gov will cost you. If one does not want to put in a little effort than this is not the game for them.

Its not that bad as you make it sound. If you configure governor right, he builds buildings and manages citizens nearly the same way you would. And if you see that something is wrong you can always change orders to build cavalary instead of cathedral And of course if youre just finished your swordsman attack and changing into republic and building only workers and horseman(to upgrade to knights later), you will want to use city building queue instead of governor, cos if you want all your cities to build workers and horseman then theres no point of governor at all. So its all relative imo.

Also You know you talk about putting effort into game; i could actually disagree with you that using governor is easy...

And yeah i understand that this is not RTS game, but why i did implemented it is cos it is also a STRATEGY game. I dunno about you but i dont play this game like rpg, where i like to control each situation seperately. What i care about it is to win and to win with style I always use Unique units of any civilization, not because they are strong or whatever, but just because its style. Right now playing a game with babylon, everyone say that bowmen sux. I dont care. They attack good, they defend good, they bombard, they have very pretty bows and cool hat - all i need But what i dont enjoy - is to concentrate on pushing "enter" button or push "zoom to city" 20 times per minute.....

 

[vmxa]

I am not going to try to change your way, have at it. I just do not want that to be given as advice to someone learning the game. It is not the best way to get the most from the empire.

It is not much effort as you only have to deal with towns that have grown and they may not need anything either. You can even get lazy and ignore those far off towns late in the game.

Once they understand the way the game works, they can elect to do it another way, but no way would I suggest they use the gov. Like I said the AI uses them and look where it gets them.

I use the build last and ask for each preference, so there is never a time when a build is not what I expect. It does get to be a fair effort if you have 400 or more towns, but those are special games. Most of the std maps will not see 100 towns.

BTW it is not just Bowman that suck, all archer types do except maybe JT. If I can avoid it I do not build archers.

The thing is this thread is for someone having trouble with a Regent game. If you are whipping Regent, you can do as you wish. By "you" I mean anyone. My interest is to see if I can pass on something useful to anyone not booting Regent game around the block.

I wanted to show that this game specifically was just another Regent game that he could smash. I wanted to give him some idea of one way to go about it. Not the only or the best, just one way.

 

[Spoonwood]

It's three optional techs for Shakespeare's (Priniting Press, Democracy, and Free Artistry). You can get it on upper levels if you have a pre-build going with something else, but it's not worthwhile to research there... you'll have to trade there, have techs to trade, and have a decent tech position to trade there. It can really help for a super science city, yes. It usually makes sense to research up there in an OCC or 20k game, but in any other fast tech pace game it doesn't make all that much sense.

As I understand it the governor hires entertainers instead of other specialists. In most cases, you want other specialists. You also can't get extra production upon growth from a governor. And the AI definitely makes different decisions as to what to build than most (experienced) players do around here. Play with the governor if you like, but give me any game with the governor on, and a semi-experienced player can probably knock a few turns off or get a few more points out of a game easy without the governor on.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

The governor is never fully off. That what selects a new tile to work or offers you a new build after the last has completed is the governor. And it can be configured to some extent. Emphasize food/production for the former. On the production screen* you can configure what the governor will offer you as new builds, even though you retain the last word on what will actually be build. It is pretty annoying if the governor insists on offering swordsmen or warriors or some such after your builds have completed or in new towns. With the right settings you can get the game to offer you workers, settlers, libs etc. instead.

Just don't let the governor actually manage anything much, so have "manage production" etc turned off.


* That is the one that has settings for "offensive land units", "science", "culture" etc and "often", "never", "sometimes."

 

[vmxa]

Von how many towns did you have at 1400AD? Have you met all the nations?

 

[Von Naumann]

Ooooooh. I didn't count 'em.... off the top of my head, 15-20, but not sure. Actually, started over again, with no govs, I'm to 1260 AD, have had 2 or 3 wars with Japan to this point and am a bit ahead (i.e., I've destroyed two of his frontier towns, captured one, lost a town and colony of mine and recaptured them). I have two armies (one AncCav and one Swords) in the field resting up or at full hits, and am transitioning back to Despotism from Feudalism in order to go after Tokee again and kick his a$$ some more. Going a bit more slowly that maybe it should, but I'm at 50% research, and have over 3K gold in the bank. I've not met any of the other civs yet, should send out the galleys exploring to get contact with them I suppose.... then I can trade techs, eh?


PS: I generally play to win, but how enjoyable is that if I don't have some fun along the way, eh? I may not get to the end victorious as quickly as some but I try to have a good time kickin' somebody's a$$ along the way.... guess that makes me a warmonger or sommat....

 

[SleeperLv]

Well if youre on huge map, i'd advise to sail around continent look for close seas, but since youre on "continents" on a huge map you prolly wont find anyone, but who knows. Try to get navigation(or however that tech was called that lets you trade world maps and sail oceans), and then sail to another continent. All you really need to do is reach any civilisation from other continent. Then diplomacy should do the trick of revealing all contacts and all locations of every other civilisations in the game.

As one smart man said - "If we trade, we grow faster!". I dunno about techs, i guess situational, but i would surely trade some luxuries.

Also to respond VM, yeah regent is below my belt right now. Can do monarch. Still testing out some stuff in monarch/regent games, but never lose anymore. Gotta get myself together sometime and start off emperor. As i read from Guides thats a big leap wich makes different game

 

[vmxa]

I had about 60 towns by 1400AD, just for a guideline. Remember I deliberately did not make a settler at the start as I knew I could crank up the speed later.

You should get out a boat as early as you can squeeze it in, but at this level there is not much trading to be done. They will just be too weak. When I made contact I was only able to get a tech that I skipped, Monarchy, they were just to slow.

It is best to not switch forms of government more than once, unless Religious. I would say you should never use Feudalism. I am sure someone will come along to tell you about a swell time to use it, but forget it.

Either go with Republic as I did or Monarchy and stay there. Lots of money in the bank is not a goal, unless you are late in the game. It means you did not spend enough on something, usually research.

As to beating their behinds, that is what it is all about. We are only talking about how you might go about doing that more effectively. I will post some more log in cloaked mode, so you can read it now or later.

 

[vmxa]

SleeperLv this is just a large map, not huge, though you point is still valid. You should be able to handle Emperor, it is not a giant change.

 

[vmxa]

Spoiler :

280AD:
Autoraze a town with a spear in it. See 4 units next to it. I have the AC that took the town and 2 other covering it. I have MDI's now.

290AD:
Kill 2 units and get another AC elite. I have a warrior elite there as well. I see why Von had some concern as I count 7 units heading to the empire and there could be more. There is also an uprising near the border.

This should not be an issue, but if you are not a war monger, it could pose a problem.

310AD:
Start Mono in 8 turns.

320AD:
got an MGL. Long way home though.

IBT:
super curragh kills galley, It was 2/4 and now 1/4.

380AD:
1st makes two kills, so HE will be available next turn to build.
Put down a 4 horse uprising, guess the rest are afraid to show.

400BC:
China beat me to ToA by one turn. I was not even paying attention as I never build the the thing. I switch to GLB for no good reason, just the only wonder left and lost 80 shields.

Chiv in 3 turns. I killed 8 or 9 Nipponese units. around Nuremburg.

410AD:
Spain finished GW and Japan completes HG. GA is over. I made peace with Japan for their mere 15 gold. They have Monarchy, which I will get from the GLB eventually.

420AD:
Disband 2 elite warriors as I do not want to speed 90 gold each for an MDI. Need to get back to making settlers as soon as the current builds are done.

590AD:
Playing peaceful. I have found China and I see what is likely Isabel. China is still in the AA with no money.

600AD:
Yeah it was Spain. KT next turn. FP finished. Got Monarchy form GLB as China and Japan knew it and probably Spain as well. I still have not made a knight or horse. I only hooked up horses a few turns ago, but I did start a knight.

610AD:
Switch Leo to lib as it is too slow and start it over in Berlin. It is still 15 turns faster. No one seems to have any MA techs, so no problem. Will finish Gunpowder next turn.

Put up an embassy in Spain and China. Had one in Japan already. Madrid is about to finish a colosseum at size 7? At least Mao was making a settler.

720AD:
Start Metal. Just working on the later stuff for now. So much land to fill, even with 2 settler pumps and 2 worker pumps, I am not keeping up. I see the only salt near is on a mountain way out on the coast.

I sent out 2 settlers to fill in to get it. Looks like I will have to work the jungles now. I did clear a few tiles and Frankfurt got sickness.

760AD:
Met Cathy, she was polite. She is making a barrack in the capitol, what is the rush? Still need to find the French. Embassy in all known.

China has 22 towns, Spain 24 and Japan 28. I have 25. Three settlers out and three towns making them now. Still not messing with Japan as we have about half the land filled, so I prefer to get it mostly filled, before others can drop in and settle.

I would rather not have to attack any other the towns of nations not on this land mass. Should have Steam before I can fill the land and that works great as Japan is not in the MA yet. I want to start taking their towns with cavs and rails or at least some rails.

The land is far too large to cover with roads and I do not want to make enough units to protect it all now.

 

[vmxa]

Spoiler :

800AD:
Russia 30, Japan 29, Spain 25, China 25 and Germany 30 towns.

810AD:
start on MT in 7.

860AD:
8 barbs heading towards New Nuremburg. Knight kills one and goes elite, MDI kills one. I send two more knights over to close it down next turn.

880AD:
Start Theo in 4. Salt is getting a road now, so cavs have to wait.

910AD:
Theo next turn. Start disbanding the new Crusaders. I still have to pay support, due to all the workers. I have upgraded some knights and it is a long ways to the front now.

920AD:
Start Education in 4 turns. GLB turned out about what you would expect, it got one tech that was optional. I could have traded for it and got nothing out of the Lib.

960AD:
I have been disbanding swords or archers from time to time. Start Astro in 6. Only go at 60%.

1020AD:
Start Banking and I see the French.

1030AD:
Embassy with Joan shows she has started Sistine, which I will not build anyway. Everyone is down at least 4 MA techs and Japan has no MA techs, but entered the age.

Japan 37, Spain 27, Russia 30, France 15, China 25, Germany 37. Japan actually has more land than I.

1080AD:
Start Physics. I do not go for Econ as I will probably not make many banks anyway.

1140AD:
Starting Mag last turn. Still a lot of land to fill and a ton to clear.
No one added a town except me and now have 43. Japan still has more land than me, due to their wide spacing. Not sure why they have not filled some of the open land.

1200AD:
Not sure if I started ToG this turn or last. I finally got around to the Incense and now have 4 lux.

1255AD:
More luck as I get Steam for my free tech. Start Electricity to get to RP.
Japan now has 39 towns, it could be they had them and I did not read my own writing. It is certain that the others are not adding towns. It could be they had filled the land. I have 47 now. Will start rails.

Copes will be done as will an army. Will start Newton next turn. I have about 1700 gold. I did not even drop the slider on lux.

1260AD:
Shocking bad news. No coal. I see only 3 sources on the land and they are all in Japans hands.

All the jungle, hills and mountains and forest that could have had coal, not one. No point in going to war right now as I do not even have the gap to the next coal filled.

Will have to get a settler up to grab that space and then one to replace the town near the coal.

It is a long way to the front, about 7 turns to get them there. I will fill the 2nd with cav. I upgraded the only pike I built. I made a few musket.

1275AD:
Looks like Japan has a similar problem as they tried to demand Iron. I expect a sneak attack soon. That will work out just fine.

 

[vmxa]

Spoiler :

1305AD:
Start RP.

1340AD:
Working on Industry. Upgraded MDI, LB, cannon and muskets. Now we have a few infantry and guerilla's. Faster workers will help.

I will wait for the 3rd army and then declare. I doubt Japan will attack now. We have just a little open land, so it is not a sure thing. Anyway I need coal, so I will go then, if they do not come first.

1380AD:
Start Medicine. Kicked off the war last turn. Right now using only 2 cav armies. Newtons will finish next turn. Switched army to factory.
Russia 31, Japan 41, Spain 29, China 26, France 15 and Germany 57 towns.

1385AD:
I have razed 5 towns and still no one will attack.

1390AD:
A reminder as to why I do not build many boats. My frigate sunk attacking a very dangerous galley. Cannon fire is not enough to deal with oars. Regular Sami shows up an the 21 HP AC army manages to deal with it. A pair of horses are cut down by a crusader and a cav. So they are sending a few uints.

1400AD:
6 units arrived and died.

1405AD:
Japan sent in 19 units. The bad news is that all have 2 moves.

Got a leader and killed or retreat all the units on my roads. Some of the 19 are on hills/jungle and will wait.

1410AD:
Start Sci Meth.
Another frigate is dropped by a galley,

Guerilla makes leader, form an AC army as I do not have any cavs in the area.

1415AD:
Cleared them out again and I think they are about gassed now. I had to put one army on the workers hooking up the coal. I was able to attack a city and kill a Sami and a pike. Japan finished Bach.

1420AD:
Razed the city and no units in my land now.


1435AD:
Finally have the coal and can get some rails up.
Started Corporation.
I guess they were no quite gassed. Been killing 6-20 units per turn, counting those in towns.

I would normally not go to peace, but this is Republic, so I make peace for two scrub towns. I want to concentrate on rails for a time. China and Japan are still in the MA.
Towns:
Japan 35, Spain 29, Russia 31, France 15, China 27, German 65.

1455AD:
Nearly have all the coast railed. Rails run from top to bottom. ToE next turn and another army just came out.
Corp will finish, so I will get AT and Elec from the ToE.

1460AD:
Start on Refine and switch army build to Hoover. Too many turns, so I switch it to a coal plant and then will do Hoovers. I found enough crusaders and AC to rush the last bit of the coal plant and one market. Still not enough to cover the unit support. Need more towns. I am able to get rails in a few places that allowed more specialist. That shaved another turn of Refine.

There is room for two more towns and I have 1 settler and the second will be out next turn. I just need to beat Japan to the spots. No roads there, but I am getting rails as close as I can next turn.

I only managed to get a little over 70 workers and now a dozen or so slaves. I shut down the worker factories after I saw no coal. No need to pile up support cost.

1475AD:
Spain and France sign MPP with Japan. That is sweet, so I will get DOW from both when I jump Japan next. I am ready now with rails to all corners.

1495AD:
Working on Steel, forgot if I just start this turn or last as just finish dinner. Anyway I got bored so I attacked the units Japan left in my land. I razed two towns. The MPP partners DOW me.

I think it is Spain and Russia. I am sure about Spain, not about the other one.

1500AD:
No attacks on the IBT. It was France and Spain. Spain got China to embargo, like I care. I do not intend to do any trades in this game anyway. Looks Japan has been busy during the peace as they manged to sent nearly 30 units.

1505AD:
Spain landed 1 archer. 17 units in the land and 3 next to it. I lost a few guerilla's on Sami's last turn. I now have cut the land in half and a number of Japanese towns are behind the lines.

Those I will take little by little, faster once the incoming slows down.

Frigate barley kills a galleon and goes vet, but is yellow.

Another embargo with someone.

Got them all, but one archer.

1510AD:
First Cav from Japan this turn. I know they had salt in their land, maybe they did not know MT, never checked.
Started razing town in the rear area now.

1520AD:
Tacitus says the Japanese are the happiest nation? They are happy to lose all their land?

1525AD:
Start Combustion. Level a few more towns and they have 4 left in the coastal tundra. One is already being attacked, but reaching the rest will take a few turns. This is an ugly map as I have no oil either. All the desert tiles and tundra. There is one under Japan's control and it has volcanic pollution on it.

1530AD:
AC makes leader and then I disband the AC. Form 7th.

1535AD:
Hoovers done so I sell off the coal plant.

1540AD:
Leader and form 8th. One town left in the rear tundra and then off to the front. I will need to get roads and rails up back there before all the armies can be used. I started making armies in the MA again. I have not bothered to set up farms or even manage the cities. I am not even running at max research, just 70%. I may up it as I am piling up cash that I don't really need.

I see that the others are expanding a bit. May be using islands.

Japan 28, Spain 31, Russia 34, France 20, China 29, Germany 82. We have expanded a bit as well.

 

[Ringo Kid]

1) at the highest levels or variants, you won't get this wonder.

2) it requires you to learn two optional tech's and that slows your getting to the next age and some key techs.

In addition this game has so much land to fill and it needs to be filled before the rest of the nations get ocean travel.

This isnt a high level game, and an early size 20 city with science wonders speeds your research getting the key techs sooner.

Doesnt slow down filling the land either.

 

[Spoonwood]

This isnt a high level game, and an early size 20 city with science wonders speeds your research getting the key techs sooner.

It doesn't matter about the level. As long as you have a decent sized empire, 12 turns to get to Shake's slows down the overall tech pace. Shake's may increase your beaker count, but that doesn't speed up the overall tech pace by itself.

 

[vmxa]

IF this was a high level game, we would not have any conversation about Shakes, we would have little or no shot at it. A high level game to me is Deity or Sid. What I am talking about is games played by Regent players that are not crushing Regent.

Spoonwood was saying 12 turns, but those players are not likely to research all three tech in 20 turns. Even a good player is probably doing 5 and 6 turn techs. In a large map the those techs cost 1152, 2176, 1664. That is almost 5000 beakers.

How are you going to make that up with a single metro? Talk about not getting to Steam sooner. By the time you get to it, you could have railed much of your empire. The rails let you get many towns pumping put 9 beakers and some cities doing even more. Places that otherwise are not doing any beakers or just a few.

These extra beakers for about 20 extra turns, how will you make that up? With a few extra pop in one town? How soon will you get to size 20? Are you going to add in workers at a time when Steam is coming? Not to mention I would not have those 21 tiles to use anyway. How about instead of learning 3 extra techs, you learn one and make a hospital? It is not that far away, if you skip those three techs.

My points are that I am talking about players that are just trying to beat Regent, not those that have mastered higher levels. I want them to be able to win the game and then they can come back and take a stab at Free Art, when they know the AI is not going to be a problem for them.

 

[Spoonwood]

Spoonwood was saying 12 turns, but those players are not likely to research all three tech in 20 turns.

I agree. I just meant that *even in* the most ideal scenario of 4 turn research, Shake's doesn't pay back in terms of research... except in an OCC or something like that.

 

[Von Naumann]

Hey, VM.... I'm not trying to crush Regent, not just yet. I'm just trying to methodically win... btw... my startover is progressing what appears to be nicely... after abandoning my silly vengeful approach to Japan...

going from 1270AD, I contacted the Spanish, and bought two techs from 'em (Theology and education) for 2500 g, allowing me to complete astronomy so that I can build explorers (on a tip from elsewhere; explorers move pretty quickly, AND they can pillage; great for underground espionage work against an enemy when you haven't gotten the espionage tech)....

Once I got back to despotism (for the time being) I forwent (is that a proper word??) my "revenge" on Tokugawa, and focussed more on expansion and military development...

I'm now at 1475AD and am starting to flank the Japs. Russia got a bit butt-insky (i.e., settled a town in "my" territory) and then demanded tribute. Told Catherine to shove it, whereupon she declared on me. Remembering some diplomacy stuff, I approached the other civs (incl. Japan) with an MPP plus one or two luxes. Easy sale. Everyone declared on Russia, and I wiped out their one settlement. That's pretty much where I'm at...

 

[Ringo Kid]

Well, I played it out just to make sure I was right, and what I did was to trade the optionals for the skipped required techs. That way the extra techs don't slow you down a bit. Same amount of beakers, but you get more techs for them this way. That has to be better, right? Or faster, anyway, overall since you can still build the rest of the empire you would have had without Shakes,Copernicus and Newton. I mean they only add beakers without taking any away.



Although conmparing vmxa's log, the overall progress was not much different. I conquered Japan circa early 1400's, built factories and Hoovers then massed out Panzers and then conquered Spain circa 1720's . Stopped at that point. It was just silly throwing Panzers at stacks of spearmen and the occasional Rifleman. This map is a bit light on resources and that really hampered the AI progress, I think.

Anyway the OP wanted advice on beating Japan in his game, and obviously either method will do that.

 

[Ringo Kid]

Once I got back to despotism (for the time being) I forwent (is that a proper word??) my "revenge" on Tokugawa, and focussed more on expansion and military development...

Everyone declared on Russia, and I wiped out their one settlement. That's pretty much where I'm at...

Good for you! Expansion and controlling the real estate is the important thing.