Getting a good early military rush going...?

[Micky Onimusha]

Righto, I've gotten back into FFH2 after a long hiatus and I'm remembering why I was so hooked

Anyway, the tl;dr version of this thread is: I am looking to strategy advice on how to execute an early rush successfully.

The longer version helps flesh out what I have gathered so far/what mistakes I've been making/how wrong my entire concept of what I'm doing is:

I played through my first successful game over the past couple of days as Alexis (only on Monarch, but we all gotta start somewhere). I'd decided I wanted to go for an early military rush, hence Alexis over Flauros, and it all went pretty smoothly. In my head, I thought I'd be going for Education as soon as possible and abusing Shock I Blood Pets. That ended up half true. I'd actually started near a set of Goblin Forts that kept pumping out little Gobbos for me to pick off, which meant I had already started to build up a nice li'l collection of Shock I Blood Pets long before Education, making the ones I built after education icing on the cake. Anyway, early rush on the neighbouring Sheaim went smoothly - I timed my attack just as they set up their second city, nicely splitting their forces in two managable stacks, and wiped them out and got two cities for my trouble. Just after Bronze Working, I took out the Malakim - my veteran Blood Pets upgraded to Moroi with fresh Moroi built on the side (and the suicide wallbreakers using Burning Blood) and wiped out their Swordsmen guards with ease. Everything all nicely set up for a good game. A nice core batch of cities in nice areas set me up economy wise and 3 of my little army of veterans from the very start managed to last long enough to become Paladins in my final conquest. A happy ending for all involved... except the many people who got eaten

.... Now though, I'm trying to create that magic on Emperor. And I'm failing. In my head I rushed in trying to get Education (grabbing either Agri/Calender or Craft/Mining depending on what was around) but it comes too late and by the time it does it takes too long to pump out a sizable army of Shock I Blood Pets that's capable of flooding a nearby enemy. And then I realised the reason it went so well in the first game was because the Barbs had kindly sent me some training Goblins that helped me have a good 6-8 Shock I Blood Pets good to go killing before I'd even gotten to Education.

Obviously, realising this has helped solve one problem. Now the problem I'm having is figuring out how to farm Barbs in this way proactively, since it's rare the computer will kindly stack 2 Goblin forts by my capital and feed me a steady steam of Goblins to feed on.

So, yeah, as the tl;dr short version above says: I am looking to strategy advice on how to execute an early rush.

 

[sunbeam]

I don't think these early rush strategies would work if the ai were altered to work more like a player (no I don't have the slightest idea how to do it) in the early going.

Maybe I'm missing something, but in every mod I've played so far (FFH2, FF, Rise From Erebus, Erebus in the Balance) except for Orbis the first two techs should be Ancient Chants->Mysticism to get you to god king. Except for the Lanun who should start fishing then do the two techs.

Orbis is a little different because you really need to get some food techs and the wheel going so your city can grow. I've seen all kinds of statements in these threads about researching Calendar first, or Animal Husbandry but in my experience you'll get a combo of Ancient Chant/Mysticism/Some Food Tech faster going in this order than if you start with a food tech in most mods.

Somewhere in here I made an elder council, and hoped to pop a sage for the academy.

Now after gettin AC/Mysticism out of the way the first priority is to defend yourself. I'll stick a stack of 4 or 5 warriors on my city and build a palisade. My first techs are self defense techs that lead me to either axemen, archers, or hunters. Maybe drowns. Depending on the terrain there is a good chance I'll do this before calendar or animal husbandry.

If I am going to found a religion I pick the defender that goes with the tech needed for the religion. If FoL I go hunting, and have at least 1 strength 4 hunter in the city. If RoK, I'll probably stick a couple SoK in the city, before I build anything else. OO, it's pretty obvious you make drowns. With most civs it's fastest to build the temple then drown a couple troops, if your troops can be drowned.

If I'm not going for a religion I usually go animal husbandry/horseback riding if there are horses available (or you are kurios/hippus). If not I usually go archery or bronzeworking.

Just saying that your fast rush strategy wouldn't work if the ai were prioritized differently in the early going. If you were doing this with me, I don't think it would work unless you were the Hippus or Doviello, who have world spells that can help with an early rush. There is a good chance by the time you get to me I'd have at least one strength 4 defender on the city, along with with around 4 or 5 warriors and a palisade, probably on a hill too.

In my experience it's pointless to build a settler until you've gotten these things done. The only time I'll have a second city before I do is if I get a settler from a goody hut, or I'm playing orbis which functions kind of a little differently from the other mods I've played.

I just don't think this would work against a player character in general, or the ai if it worked a little differerently.

As a case in point with the ai, last night I played a game of Rise from Erebus. Around round 300 the Lanun wanted me to give them Mysticism, and the Svarts wanted me to give them Way of the Forest.

I personally just don't think early rushes are viable unless you do them with horsemen. That's just an opinion though.

Something just hit me, when I play Ilians I pop the world spell first thing. Having a 20 or so round lead on everyone else is the very best use of that spell. What you are doing would probably work better with them than anyone else. Though I usually wait for priests of winter before I rush with them.

 

[Selrahc]

It sounds like your basic plan is solid enough.
Remember that you can bring along bronze warriors to act as fodder. A good old "warriorpult" will probably heavily damage defenders, even if his odds of victory are long. In early rush games, early tech order is very important. Play to your land. It sounds like you're doing that already though.

If you have some good calendar resources that aren't tree choked, go for calendar. If you have gold or gems, go for mining. Get a source of commerce linked up, and you'll drastically speed your early game. If you don't have mining commerce resources or calendar commerce resources your opening is probably going to be considerably slower, and I basically wouldn't play a rush game in those circumstances unless I knew the opponents had a similarly slow start.

Mysticism does very little to help you with teching, so it isn't worth grabbing as a first priority. Particularly for the Calabim, who lack Elder Councils. It's a strong early game tech mainly because God King helps pump out settlers quick... but that isn't quite so vital for a rush game.

Don't go for a rush unless you have bronze. If you tech mining and don't see a source that is a cue to change plans.

The biggest boon for a rush game is the Orthus Axe. That thing will turbocharge a rush like nothing else.

Something just hit me, when I play Ilians I pop the world spell first thing. Having a 20 or so round lead on everyone else is the very best use of that spell. What you are doing would probably work better with them than anyone else. Though I usually wait for priests of winter before I rush with them.

Illians are almost impossible to fail to rush with. The Priests of Winter will win you the game even on diety, if you use them right.
The same can basically be said for Pyre Zombies.

 

[Micky Onimusha]

Cheers for the input guys.

Just a follow-up question. All of this seems to imply things taking place a little later in the game, so I take it I should build up at least a 2nd city before launching an early offensive?

@sunbeam - I'm sure I'd play differently against a human but I've never played MP. Content to face the AI, even with its failings, heh.

 

[Horatius]

God king is necessary for the production (not research), unless you're hiring or upgrading. Use a trade mission for upgrades. Horses are much better then melee. Upgrade scouts to horses. Capture a couple of elephants with scouts and upgrade them = Win.
Rushing with just a few units and one city only works usually until emperor (at least with Tholal's). Exceptions with one city are Doviello, Clan, Ilians and silly Kandros, sometimes Tasunke.
Obviously, of course also mighty early Gilden. But that's a unit not a civ

Dark elves's scouts are good btw in low diff if you're really fast.

 

[Selrahc]

Just a follow-up question. All of this seems to imply things taking place a little later in the game, so I take it I should build up at least a 2nd city before launching an early offensive?

Yes.

Use a trade mission for upgrades.

Hmm. That's getting a little late for an early rush. That means adding festivals into the mix, then grinding out a great merchant. That's an additional what... 30 turns?

Horses are much better then melee. Upgrade scouts to horses.

This is a fair enough point in general, but I think the Calabim Moroi do work as a unit to centre a rush around.

 

[Horatius]

Horsemen > Moroi