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[R&F] Getting Rolled on Deity

Discussion in 'Civ6 - Strategy & Tips' started by Fluphen Azine, May 25, 2018.

  1. Fluphen Azine

    Fluphen Azine What is Fluphen Azine?

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    After the Spring Patch I have been getting rolled pretty good lately. Not every game but the AI seems to be showing up more on my doorstep by turn 20-30 with a pretty good sized army and attacking the Capital. Am I the only one this is happening to? I always play Pangea Deity/Stand/Stand/Stand. I notice it happens when I get a little greedy and move 2 turns to get double horses or something like that. Perhaps I need to just Settle In Place to prevent this? Anyone have a standard Build Order to prevent a rush or other tactics I might not be aware of? Do I need to pay more attention of my map location? I think that might be part of the problem... I notice this happens when I am in the middle.
     
  2. marcopolothefraud

    marcopolothefraud Chieftain

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    Do you go double slinger and Animal Hisbandry->Archery?
     
  3. Fluphen Azine

    Fluphen Azine What is Fluphen Azine?

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    I used to go 3xslinger, builder, 3xslinger. I was getting greedy at times playing builder, settler first and it works many times but I notice now I can't gamble on that like before. I was reading a strategy just now that says to go slinger, builder... chop slinger, slinger, warrior and use last charge to improve. Build another slinger and rush archery and now take two warriors with trailing archers. Something about 4 archers is key to take down cities and try to promote them so that 4 turns into 8. I dunno. I was just noticing that I was getting rolled more since the units attack the city now compared to before. It seems that it is imperative to build army first now. I'll keep working on it.
     
  4. Chibisuke

    Chibisuke Warlord

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    AI units now ignore your defensive troops for the most part and suicide attack the capital. It does make them more dangerous if you don't have enough archers.
     
  5. kb27787

    kb27787 Deity

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    According to the posters on here... Just reroll or play prince... Yeah I was getting quite frustrated with this, but most players seem to like aggressive AI... Until Firaxis decreases AI starting warriors or give palace guard huge buffs this will keep happening and you are stuck with beelining archery as the only viable option in the opening
     
  6. Chibisuke

    Chibisuke Warlord

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    Yea, I would ignore those people. The people saying that Deity is easy are not credible. It is hard but it is beatable.

    The first thing to keep in mind is that there is a sort of ticking clock on Deity, and sooner or later you will be rushed by at least one AI. They seem to just automatically rush the closest thing to them. So if it is a city state, they rush the city state. If it is you, they rush you.

    Often times you should expect the rush between turn 20 and 35. I have seen a few instances where it came around 12-15 but that is rare. An early rush like this will usually be like 5 to 6 warriors, possibly a slinger or two archers, depending on how much that AI advanced.

    As I mentioned, since the last couple patches, the AI rush will generally ignore your defensive troops (unless they are weak enough to kill, or blocking access to the capital) and just suicide rush your capital with attacks until it is conquered. Thus, old strategies like carefully positioning warriors as bait will no longer work in most instances. As a result, warriors are less useful against the bum rush. On Deity, AI warriors are just more powerful than player warriors, so you can't really expect a couple of your warriors to defend against 5 or 6 AI warriors, plus whatever ranged support they manage to bring.

    So yea, I think 4 to 5 archers is a good idea. That will be enough to take out the incoming warriors and then the eventual archers if they have them (they usually do).

    As for build order, I usually do either builder-slinger or slinger-builder depending on the area. Then if there is an AI close enough (with no city state to distract them) I would probably build another 2 slingers before switching to settler. If there is no rush imminent, you can build 2 settlers back to back. By now you probaly have archery, and I would build 2 more archers while upgrading the other 3. This should be strong enough to stop an AI rush and you can counterattack or use it as an offensive army if no one had attacked you yet.

    One of the most challenging parts about Deiy though is that the AI will get to horsemen and knights relatively quickly. You have to keep this in mind and be ready for either of those in a 2nd or 3rd wave rush (possibly by a different AI opponent). Getting up walls early in at least your frontline cities will help immensely. Also, getting at least one warrior uprgraded to a swordsmen will buff all your cities' defenses.

    One other thing, I have learned more and more how useful encampments are. I used to not really build them but if you don't have access to iron and have at least one horse, encampments will help you get out horsemen which can similarly be used to buff your city defenses and prevent a successful AI rush.

    This is mostly defensive talk though. Offensive strategies are a bit different, though since they implemented the loyalty system, to be honest offense is pretty weak for most civs.
     
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  7. Fluphen Azine

    Fluphen Azine What is Fluphen Azine?

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    KB... long time since all those Civ V Deity Challenges... You must be done with school and a millionaire by now. Nice to see you around. I bought Civ VI when it first came out but didn't play it too much since it was really easy to beat. I agree with you though that many Civ VI players seem to reroll until they get great starts/land or it seems they scout the map and restart from turn 0.

    As they made it more difficult I kept coming back to it. Recently with this latest patch I feel that it is getting more fun to play and plenty of Civs to choose from and I am used to the new graphics enough now. For the first year I couldn't enjoy the visual aspects compared to Civ V. I am sure by the time this game gets rolling they will just make Civ VII and stop working on this game as they usually do.

    Up until this latest patch I was pretty much able to do whatever I wanted on Deity with just about whatever Civ I rolled. Of course I like the military aspect so I almost always go that route. I was just noticing since the patch that getting rolled was much more possible now. As Chibisuke stated above you can have rushes as early as turn 12-30 so if you just blindly go builder, settler... you could lose the game outright.

    I played a bunch of games yesterday up to about turn 100-150 without rerolls and I focused on this slinger, builder, chop, chop, upgrade tile strategy where your plan is to build 4 slingers and 1 warrior along with starting warrior. Mining, AH to Archery and use that army to go kill. It works really well with close neighbors or CS's. Use the same idea as before in Civ V and XP Farm. It worked really well just about every game. It hurts the plan with Magnus though since you are chopping early but you can use him in other cities if your Capital is Forest Poor. I noticed the same problems with Civ V that some games the AI was far behind in tech no matter what and other times you would have run aways on the other side of the Pangea Map or at least a Run Away for Civ VI.

    I want to thank you all for your replies so far and keep them coming. If you have other Build Orders or plans or ideas let me know because I enjoy hearing them and trying them out in the game to see if I can replicate someone else's style.
     
  8. gatorsurgeon

    gatorsurgeon Chieftain

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    Diety is harder now since the patch, but still not as hard for me as diety on Civ 5. Diety starts now pretty much have to be AH-Archery, 4 slinger to archers as fast as you can, and either play defense or try to take a nearby city or two. Settling on a luxury might save you from an early rush if you can sell it/gift it to your first neighbor. That might be your only hope for a peaceful game.
     
  9. S3reneTurmoil

    S3reneTurmoil Chieftain

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    Is the AI simply more aggressive or is it more clinical with attacking?
     
  10. Chibisuke

    Chibisuke Warlord

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    Much more aggressive.
     
  11. GeorgeF

    GeorgeF Warlord

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    The AI has such a military advantage they attack the nearest opponent. My last three games in a row I started with a neighbor CIV around 7 tiles away. First was Aztecs, they swarmed my cap with eagle warriors, I barely got a second unit out before I was dead. Next up was Indoesia, saw their cap's borders from my cap. No different there. Both games first meeting was before I had enough gold to send a delegation. Third game was Gilgamesh as closest neighbor so I breathed a sigh of release as he always agrees to be friends first thing. Now we both are dealing with a very agressive and closeby Kongo who is forward settling both of us.
     
  12. Fluphen Azine

    Fluphen Azine What is Fluphen Azine?

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    I have been playing All Random Deity, Pangaea, All Standard. I agree that selling luxuries and sending delegation is key with close neighbors. If you don't have enough gold you can trade 1gpt for 16 gold and that should be enough. You can usually see where you are on the map before turn one. If you are in the middle you better go full army. If you have protection with ocean or mountains you can focus less on military. After a few days it is pretty clear that Deity still is just survive the opening and you should be able to win most games if not all of them. When I made this thread I had noticed the AI was better at taking the Capital or Cities compared to pre patch.
     
  13. kb27787

    kb27787 Deity

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    Greetings Fluphen, long time no see. Done with school, yes, millionaire, not quite.

    I used to do builder opening when I have a mining/camp luxury... meet neighbor AI and gift the luxury, and wait for DoF.
    This may allow you to do early game things in peace (get mining and go for pyras, etc. instead of having to beeline archery etc.)

    Used to work fine pre-last patch where you can "stop" an AI invasion who is right at your doorstep and waiting for the DoW by just offering DoF... once accepted it's like the AI's units are confused as to what to do and start shuffling around your borders.

    Well, the last patch fixed that. Now, no matter how friendly they are at (with several green modifiers) they will always DoW once they have made their mind about launching the attack (even if they have to walk 20 tiles to get to your lands, they will do it); they will never accept DoF. So that opening, for me, is no longer that viable. I just sell the lux for gold and prepare to defend.

    I have to say, I missed the BNW diplomacy--in RnF diplomacy is almost meaningless early game as AIs are complete jerks (and continue to be such throughout the game despite alliances, etc.) they will siphon your gold, neutralize your governers, and conquer your allied CS--worst case scenario surprise-DoW you the turn your alliance expires despite all those green modifiers. The "nice" AIs of BNW who vote for you to be WC host no longer exist (now it feels everyone is BNW Dido)--which I feel perhaps might satisfy some people, but I would've liked to see some variation in personalities. I am a lot less inclined to be "nice" to them as a result (you know in BNW I always give gifts whenever my friends ask, vote for their proposals, not coup their CS, etc. now? forget it!)
     
  14. Fluphen Azine

    Fluphen Azine What is Fluphen Azine?

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    I see your point in that you either have to play defense or offense now. I have been playing two ways the last couple of days but it is pretty clear that all that is needed is to survive the opening again and you should be able to win any game for the most part. Since we don't have any shared challenge threads I usually play up to about turn 150 and I can see that the game is over and I start another. I still can't sweep the map like some of these guys do in 100 turns or so. I guess some of them can finish before turn 100 at times. I still find myself in a slog most of the time and finish around 225-275 but usually it is past turn 250 for me.

    I still have a problem with falling into a dark age during Medieval and usually run into a heroic in the Renaissance. I guess for role playing that isn't so bad since it makes sense to be in the dark ages during Medieval but my game needs to get better so that I can get all golden ages like other plays do. Many times I have to Raze my way to the Capitals.

    I have been trying a few warriors first which seems to help guard my land and I can kill the camps which gives you many era points and it kinda blocks the AI and lets me get into some settler pushes as well. So basically it is something like warrior, slinger, warrior, builder, warrior, slinger, warrior, settler. I notice I try to steal settlers but it isn't so easy anymore and if I notice an AI is close to me with a CS nearby I will try to snipe the CS's and if it has loyalty issues I let it Rebel and Liberate it getting the Suz for awhile.

    I notice some games are crazy where I will get 2 scouts and 2 builders with population from goodie huts and other games I get nothing. As usual the game is unfair and unbalanced but I guess they made up for it making it easier compared to Civ V or Civ IV or any version of CIV... here is looking forward to Civ VII because I know once they almost get this game nailed down they will just make another version for the money grab.
     
  15. eleven11

    eleven11 Warlord

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    I prefer late classical wars on Deity. Sometimes the AI disagrees and comes earlier.. it's important to keep a heads up on them and switch strategies if needed. If they cap a nearby CS then you can be assured that you are next. If Sumeria, Germany, Zulu, America, Aztecs are within 15 tiles.. you can be assured it will be an early war (almost all Civs, really, but these come fast and hard). Macedon I've seen go off and do their own thing so they are 50/50.

    I will always at least punch an AI in the nose with an early war. I roughly do this:

    Initial - Warrior - The AI seems to respect the 2 warrior setup a bit more (I said a bit.. they will still attack). Also can't beat the capability to take out 2 barb camps in the first 15-20 turns. This can be done with a slinger (taking a hit and promoting on rough terrain) if there are hills or trees within 2 tiles of the barb camp.
    Are there 3 improvable tiles? Y = Builder, N = Settler
    Slinger x 2 (sometimes I delay these until I get Archery if I plan to use my gold to buy a monument or settler. The bonus with the delay is that I usually have Craftsmanship at that time.)
    Settler or builder (the opposite of my pick above)
    Settler - skip if there is an AI super close.
    Military until I feel I can take a couple cities. Also mix in at least one monument.

    The first choice for settling cities 2 and 3 are based on production. I want at least 1 3 hammer tile, if not 2. When those cities come online they go Archer heavy. Or if i'm culture starved I may do a monument. The earlier you get to Oligarchy the better. If at any point I see a warrior or chariot where it shouldn't be (i.e. on the way to my territory) I swap back to military. Gotta keep those lines of sight up.

    I'm adaptable though. If I'm production poor unless I improve tiles I may start with a builder - with the caution that if I see the barb situation becoming crazy (horses or in my 1st expansion area) I may switch back to Warrior/Slinger. I also sometimes try to get an early Monument. To rush buy this requires a decent gold tile or two plus a goody hut. I've played a few games where I've started with Monument and rush bought a second. It's an early setback but it gets to Oligarchy much faster. However, this requires a capital with at least 2 lux and good production because fitting a 3rd settler in is almost impossible without chops.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2018
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  16. Fluphen Azine

    Fluphen Azine What is Fluphen Azine?

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    Thanks for the post! Good information and ideas for me to use in the near future. Do you always go with Oligarchy? Do you get into Great Generals building an encampment or two and using the +2 GG card? What is your usual District BO... do you always go with the Gov Plaza in your expo asap?
     
  17. eleven11

    eleven11 Warlord

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    Well, that's where you'll be pulled 10 different directions. If you are playing Macedon, Rome, Nubia - just to name a few - the BO may look different still to take advantage of civ traits. I also need to preface this by saying I mostly play Science or Culture victories.

    Another priority I didn't mention, and it seems counter-intuitive, is to sell your first lux to the AI. You generally don't need it immediately and the 5-10 gpt you can get for it will fast track buying a settler or monument.

    Oligarchy only affects melee but by the time I attack, my warriors and cavalry will need all the help they can get. With the gov't upgrade I also can run 2 of the 3 - Agoge, Maneuver, and Conscription - which helps out immensely.

    You could run a different gov't style if you are just planning defense but I've been really focused on Oligarchy lately. It's game-changing to take over your neighbor and this gov't will help you get that done quicker. Switching to Autocracy or Republic before you build the Plaza T1 upgrade is always an option if you don't care for the Oligarchy legacy card. Speaking of plaza.. i can never build it as quick as I need to on Deity. I rarely play Dom so I try to balance early conquest with setting myself up for later eras. I try to chop in Oracle or Temple of Artemis while I'm warring. Or get a Campus district up.. lots of priorities. When I do build the plaza, generally it's in my 2nd or 3rd city. I need to experiment with trying to fit it in sooner and take advantage of the stacking.
     
  18. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Deity

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    Lots of good advice here and in eleven11's prior post.

    From running my AI victory time tests, where I'm trying to survive on Deity without attacking the AI, here's my current thinking:
    • an early Builder is important for the increased gold/hammer yields as well as the Craftmanship inspiration
    • an early Scout is a real gamble at Deity, and not one I'd recommend unless you don't mind restarting if it finds nothing
    • sell anything you can get your hands on early for lump sum gold, and use that gold to buy whatever is most helpful now, whether that's a Settler or more military
    • moving your starting Settler to settle on a luxury lets you sell it to the first AI you meet, which is nice insurance for having a nearby neighbour (if it takes a while for you to meet an AI Civ, that means you've also had time to get ready for them)
    • a mix of Warriors and Slingers, with more Warriors than Slingers, seems to work best; to survive the early AI Warrior rush, you need to avoid your city being put under siege, and Warriors fortified in tiles adjacent to the city do this; the AI will divert attacks from the city to your fortified Warriors to try and put the city under siege, leaving it's attacking Warriors vulnerable to counterattack
    • you need to plan for two waves of attacks: a Warrior rush, and then a follow up Horseman or Knight rush; so once you've survived the Warrior rush, your next priority is to figure out how you'll survive the next attack
    • walls and Archers will not guarantee survival against a Horseman rush and won't even dent a Knight rush; you need better military; if you have Iron, you can upgrade your Warriors, if you have Horses, you can build your own Horsemen, otherwise Spearmen to Pikes is ugly but may be your only option; note that Crossbowmen on their own against Knights likely won't cut it if you don't at least have some Spearmen to position in places where the Knights must attack them to put your city under siege
    Note that all of the above presumes you are not taking the fight to the AI. Its much easier, after you've survived the initial Warrior rush, to go on the offensive and capture cities from your attacker, as long as you don't have a second neighbour attacking from a different direction.
     
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  19. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Its a tricky situation now because they do beeline and swamp more.
    All of the above advice is good because there is more than one way to deal with it depending on situation.
    Some things to consider

    Warrior vs slinger
    You will sometimes get swamped before you can get to archery, the difference in defense between a slinger and a warrior is huge. This is especially the case when you consider they will attack troops before city if not adjacent to the city and they will still often do so regardless of terrain advantage. A slinger just gets damages too fast and has no real ability to mas reduce a unit. A half health slinger (from 1 attack) is just of no use whatsoever. A slinger is not of much use fortified while a warrior if often more efficient to heal fortified rather than attack, especially in home territory.

    Terrain advantage
    A warrior on a wooded hill double fortified is +8 that's pretty good defense, over a river +13. So being aware of this and using it fully is really key. A scout can hold off a warrior using terrain.

    City
    It is about settling on a hill now for the additional terrain and having a full health warrior in there to get the strength to around 27. A strong city, especially one that heals is also a great way to reduce the large army. Attacking from a city is a problem because your warrior will get damaged and every 10 HP it looses is one defense off the city. I'm not saying do not do it, there are times its worth reducing a unit but not that often. If you get a chance to build a better unit like a spearman that gives +5 more than a warrior on your city then do so but bronze working normally feels a long way off in the early game.

    Scouts
    Scouts are just so useful its hard for me to ignore them early. They have the ability to lead one of 2 warriors in another direction, the are a high priority target so even can be sacrificed to save a more important unit, their ability to flank and support is also good and if need be last hit that unit. Scouts have the added advantage that if it looks like you are not going to be attacked before archery then you can send them off to ensure no dark age.... its quite easy to end up in a dark age on deity if you are not careful. The scout also initially makes you more aware of whats around you, knowing your terrain and your neighbours... remember of you find a neighbour you do not have to tell them where your capital is... but if they find you they know. If you find the civ first, just sending your warriors toward them tend to makes them go a bit defensive. People seem to use scouts wrong... I mean finding a nearby civ that has already improved horses allows you the ability to stop horses being built and getting god gold loot as well... declare on the civ first... equally a CS with something lootable can be the same... provide enough gold for more army or upgrades. That extra MP helps a lot.
    Enemy scouts or settlers often go the other way when confronted by a scout head on Scouts and warriors can manipulate the travel path of enemy units before they fond you
    Your scout also makes a superb early city siege enforcer.

    Agoge Vs Foreign trade
    You really need this... if you can get a builder and the inspiration for agoge to get there early then you are not only 50% on units but more than that because your building has increased production. A lot does depend on terrain you have to hand but builder and mining is always a tempting start because if you can get enough turns in you become string fast. Without it you really take a lot more time to grow.
    Foreign trade can often be ignored as both agoge and military tradition are great early choices. However foreign trade gives joint war ability and oh man you can use this so well. Some of the best uses of gold is when its clear someone is building up to attack me but with a little gold and joint ware we can attack another neighbor together. This is soooo strong its a joke... why? well your friend typically looses units in the fight and you do not (if you fight at all) so two of your neighbors reduce in strength, you are likely to get great gold out of a peace settlement and now have 2 weak neighbors with one liking you a bit which also can be manipulated.

    Barbs
    Truly can be the thorn in your side, last thing you want is a bunch or barbs attacking you at the same time as another civ. Sometimes it can work in your favour with a wearing down.

    Promotions
    The enemy heals when it promotes so be aware of XP and remember what units have roughly how much XP. Often its better to fight a promoted unit than one that does not have promotion as it will not heal though promotion as fast. Its pretty pointless to shoot a warrior in the woods 3 times and not kill it as it will then happily promote while the rest of their army is now closer. Worse, 3 warriors attack one of theirs but do not kill it. next turn it promotes and your 3 units are now damaged and weaker.

    Support and flank with Military tradition
    If/when you can get to military tradition it is useful. While not ground shattering those flank and support bonuses start to tip the balance.

    Archers
    Once you have a few archers you are fine but getting to that stage is the problem part. pushing slingers is risky, certainly without agoge. One thing I do know, if I am attacked early by archers now I do get ready for a new game. they can be hard to get to to remove and do like high ground and protection now. Its in this area I thin the AI has increased in skill particularly as well as city attacking.

    My Approach?
    I will circle with my warrior, especially in the area of the most open ground because attacks come faster that way. I need to find any close barb camp because they spawn a unit per turn for 7 turns and killing a camp stops this, gives my unit a promotion, gold, era points, military tradition eureka and a start toward bronze working eureka. So its more about the benefits than getting rid of the camp. When I do not find an early camp I suffer for it, its a key thing to get on all fronts.
    I will then typically start a builder and research mining or animal husbandry. Its more important to get to Agoge early than get to archer early in my view but I get the other side of the argument. This initial build can be changed at the first sign of an early attack but its rare in the first 10 turns. Its really T10-15 that are the danger turns for an attack with his strat. After the builder it depends a lot on the situation out there. On deity now it will often be a warrior or a scout but if mountains protect me, I'm by a sea or lake and I see no threat it would be worth pushing a settler as this is the best build option but the worst safety option. Trading anything for gold I can is important as gold in the bank is a fast army if need be and trade may also delay attack.
    To me forcing yourself to build early slingers in just limiting your efficiency for growth which you need on deity. they are also useless in comparison to warriors until you have archers and at agoge with some good land you are pumping out a slinger every 2 turns. If I was met by an early enemy scout finding my city, its a warrior I would swap to, not a slinger.

    I personally enjoy defending against 6 warriors with 2 warriors and a scout, its a fun challenge and not as boring as just warriors or warrior /sling. That scout can really be a cheeky chappie.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2018
  20. eleven11

    eleven11 Warlord

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    I truly prefer to use an early scout but it all depends on priorities. They can be invaluable when used right. Lately I've been rushing State Workforce right after Craftsmanship so Magnus is unlocked earlier. I try to fit a wonder in early and that requires sacrifices.. so the scout gets dumped, my builder charges are critical, and my conquest is limited to probably 2-3 cities before I sputter out.

    I also want to put up a caution that if you plan on capturing cities to anticipate when those sold luxuries come back. The happiness penalty to loyalty will tank a conquest. Just had that happen last night. Rampaging barbs took away a 2 lux expansion site and totally killed my conquest plans :(
     

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