[R&F] Getting Rolled on Deity

[Bro]

Terrain advantage
A warrior on a wooded hill double fortified is +8 that's pretty good defense, over a river +13. So being aware of this and using it fully is really key. A scout can hold off a warrior using terrain.

City
It is about settling on a hill now for the additional terrain and having a full health warrior in there to get the strength to around 27. A strong city, especially one that heals is also a great way to reduce the large army. Attacking from a city is a problem because your warrior will get damaged and every 10 HP it looses is one defense off the city. I'm not saying do not do it, there are times its worth reducing a unit but not that often. If you get a chance to build a better unit like a spearman that gives +5 more than a warrior on your city then do so but bronze working normally feels a long way off in the early game.

Scouts
Scouts are just so useful its hard for me to ignore them early. They have the ability to lead one of 2 warriors in another direction, the are a high priority target so even can be sacrificed to save a more important unit, their ability to flank and support is also good and if need be last hit that unit. Scouts have the added advantage that if it looks like you are not going to be attacked before archery then you can send them off to ensure no dark age.... its quite easy to end up in a dark age on deity if you are not careful. The scout also initially makes you more aware of whats around you, knowing your terrain and your neighbours... remember of you find a neighbour you do not have to tell them where your capital is... but if they find you they know. If you find the civ first, just sending your warriors toward them tend to makes them go a bit defensive. People seem to use scouts wrong... I mean finding a nearby civ that has already improved horses allows you the ability to stop horses being built and getting god gold loot as well... declare on the civ first... equally a CS with something lootable can be the same... provide enough gold for more army or upgrades. That extra MP helps a lot.
Enemy scouts or settlers often go the other way when confronted by a scout head on Scouts and warriors can manipulate the travel path of enemy units before they fond you
Your scout also makes a superb early city siege enforcer.

Using the terrain strategically has become a thing now more than it was before. A strategically well situated city can defend well against the first wave of AI attack. Sometimes of course you have to settle the first city to flat land, but then you just have to cross your fingers that there is no AI 7 tiles away from you.

Scouting is a double edged sword. I have found that if the AI has not met you, it will not attack you. Staying hidden is sometimes a good option.

EDIT: As I mostly play Qin, I have the advantage of the Great Wall. That thing is +10 defense for your unit right from the bat. Downside is, if your unit on the wall dies and the AI moves to the GW, the AI now has +10 def on it's unit.

 

[Victoria]

EDIT: As I mostly play Qin, I have the advantage of the Great Wall. That thing is +10 defense for your unit right from the bat. Downside is, if your unit on the wall dies and the AI moves to the GW, the AI now has +10 def on it's unit.

lol, and you said the scout was a double edged sword.

Scouting is a double edged sword. I have found that if the AI has not met you, it will not attack you. Staying hidden is sometimes a good option.

unconvinced. Scout available T5-8, 3 turns min to travel to AI = T8-11 AI responds in minimum time T11-14... right in the danger area... thats why I prefer builder first now, it te AI responds at T20 its normally OK... normally... mostly

Here is a classic example of why I would not always start slinger on deity... just random, first roll playing deity as England is a joke now

 

[Bro]

lol, and you said the scout was a double edged sword.

unconvinced. Scout available T5-8, 3 turns min to travel to AI = T8-11 AI responds in minimum time T11-14... right in the danger area... thats why I prefer builder first now, it te AI responds at T20 its normally OK... normally... mostly
View attachment 497139

One does not negate the other. And now we are talking about the opportunity costs. Building a scout or building something else.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

You certainly can fall into some trouble going slinger first as you can fall into trouble building anything first I suppose. I had a game yesterday where I had a barb camp north and south and was horse/horse archer rushed by turn 7. I thought I was going to be dead soon since the AI would be showing up but I played it out going with a few warriors out the gate since the scout showed up on turn 3 and another scout on turn 4. I let the horses run into my walls and if Barbs could take the Capital it would of been game over but I managed to beat all the Barbs back by turn 20 or so. After that I found that I had a large mountain range to my West and Ocean to my East. The Land wasn't great but it was manageable and I had 4 CS's close to the South and South West so I was basically protected and pushed out 5 cities and due to rough terrain it took some time get rolling but I drove the Army out taking over all the CS's and playing a slow, friendly Diplomatic game and fought late wars through Arabia with Defender and next was Amsterdam with Crusade. It took some time and I got tired so I just blasted off into Space instead of continuing on with Domination.

The times that I was getting rolled I noticed it was when I was on flat terrain and the Capital was not on a Hill and I didn't build an Army. I am interested in this Builder First theory though. That doesn't sound as safe as other approaches but I get it. I have read that some players play less Army oriented and have a high success rate of not getting attacked. I tend to like Warrior, Slinger, Builder or Scout, Slinger, Builder, Warrior. I guess it just depends if I am going to try for a 4 Archer/2 Warrior Rush or not. Still learning so keep the information posting if you can and thanks!

Victoria... I don't understand... your England looks like Denmark in that Picutre? LOL! Are they a close neighbor... I had them as a neighbor a few days ago and the waves of Warrior/Archers was Real! It took some serious time to beat them back and take a couple of cities!@#$

If I am wrong and that is your Capital... that start doesn't have much eh?

 

[Fluphen Azine]

I just had a fun 35 turn game! I tried this Builder First but like usual when I don't go Army First I get punished. I had two scouts find me on turn 3! It seems I had 3 Barb Camps near me and I couldn't find/clear two of them. I had some Fun Neighbors as well and Japan actually tried to help my War and DoFed me but the Barbs along with Kahn proved to be too much. I made a mistake and left the Capital for a turn without a fortified unit... that is instant Death

I still just like all Army First when I play Deity/All Random/All Standard... just seems safer to me in my experience.

[/ATTACH]

 

[eleven11]

I wouldn't go builder first unless I could see the coast/mountain range on one side and could focus my small military in a general direction. If you load in the middle of a continent, definitely prepare for battle.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

I wouldn't go builder first unless I could see the coast/mountain range on one side and could focus my small military in a general direction. If you load in the middle of a continent, definitely prepare for battle.

Victoria got me kinda hyped about builder first so I decided to give it a go and I messed it up pretty good lol... So I rolled another game and got Spain as the Random Civ... Deity/Pang/All Random Standard. This time the game was pretty simple. Emergencies are pretty OP and I ran over a weakend Shaka and Persia and moving on two others now. I just went straight military and got Friendly with the Neighbors and even though my Land wasn't very good it worked out. The game is in the bag since I am far ahead but this time I focused on building Theatre Districts as the third District and it seems when you get Great Works or Relics or things like that the AI will pay just about everything for it on the same turn. Of course that is an exploit and I am sure everyone knows about it and nobody uses it but I find it funny.

 

[Victoria]

Victoria... I don't understand... your England looks like Denmark in that Picutre?

My very poor English led you to that conclusion. What I was saying is I used to play England all the time but they are now too nerfed. I did a random game and got Denmark.

If I am wrong and that is your Capital... that start doesn't have much eh?

WTH? Its has plenty... I tend to play with what I am given unless flat grass. River mouth coastal start with Jade and sheep... Do you use abundant resources then?

I wouldn't go builder first unless I could see the coast/mountain range on one side and could focus my small military in a general direction. If you load in the middle of a continent, definitely prepare for battle.

All advice from you is sound... startimng in the middle of the continent on deity is asking for trouble but with mountains it is more defensible. definately a warrior build first after the patch I guess although I played Gorgo and swapped to warrior and survived.

Victoria got me kinda hyped about builder first so I decided to give it a go and I messed it up pretty good lol.

My bad, I seem to get a lot of safer start positions for some reson. Will play a game this morning and Mvemba and see.

EDIT: This position may look like no reasources to you but its better than most England starts and its more challenging. In this case i'll start Warrior, nothing to build and my warrior is not near the fast way to my city

 

[Fluphen Azine]

I agree, Victoria, I seen your start and I was thinking you don't have much in the way of resources or luxes or anything. However you did have plenty of production. Nothing wrong with that start in my opinion. I play all the starts... I always go random everything Deity Pang/Stand/Stand on everything. I get many poor starts but I get some nice ones too. This last one with Spain is not very good but it had enough production to get the ball rolling. No Luxes close but it did have a ton of Iron which I sold.

Jungle starts can be tough but you have a lot of chops... I don't mind that start. I would try to build an Army and put up a perimeter and start to expand with settlers if possible. If not I'd try to club my neighbors lol.

Interesting Note about this run with Spain. I have hardly had any Loyalty problems as I Warmonger along now for about 150 turns. Usually I run into Dark Ages or something but I guess since I have had all Golden Ages with these wars it is really different compared to Normal or Dark lol. I have even flipped 4 or 5 cities. I have two Armies but my Army to the East just decided to party in the Rear. I guess I could upgrade them and fight a couple fronts and make things go faster but I get too lazy and one dimensional.

I have lurked your posts for a few years actually so I know you are big on England

 

[Victoria]

but I get too lazy and one dimensional

I am similar. I prefer to play fast, a bit like speed chess. This is quite a limiter

and on my start, once again... I could have started scout/builder ... neither camp got to see my base... yet

EDIT: Turns out its a big island I am on with no-one else but the shocker is its T39 and I'm just being offered goddess of the Harvest!

 

[kb27787]

I used to play Kongo extensively... Now it is my humble opinion that rainforest starts suck...
You need to go all the way to bronze working to harvest them AND they give rather lousy production... Basically half the hammers for twice the techs as a forest. Feels like not worth using builder charges on them but yet they get in the way of movement and so I want to remove them.

Kongo is still fun to play though but you will have way faster finish times with woods starts than with rainforest ones

 

[eleven11]

Here is my game from last night. Deity Pangea - Gorgo. Standard everything but 14 CS.
Great start! Production, Food, chops. I love Greece's start bias. BO Scout -> Settler. Risky business that is...

Spoiler What's this? An unprotected settler on Turn 10? For shame Georgia...To war! :

I love free settlers. I just hope I can end the war before the AI rolls me because there is no way I can match them on Turn 10.

Spoiler Oh my... Mongolia to the north. And another free settler. What to do... :

I took it of course... flash forward a few more turns...

Spoiler It's now turn 25. I have stolen 2 settlers at the cost of 2 wars. And I have 2 barbarian camps spawning hordes... This is opportunity cost at play. I did other things besides killing Barbs. Oh.. and Brazil is on my doorstep. This will be an interesting game. :

My settler survived. Mongolia attacked the barbarians rather than my city which gave me 10 turns of reprive to build my army. I settled the hills NW of the diamonds to strengthen my loyalty. This is going to be a slugfest. I accepted a peace offer from Tamar and had to push my military to Mongolia's borders to get a peace offering from him. Germany DOWed me a few turns later. Mongolia will be back. As will Tamar and Pedro. Good thing I get culture from killing because this game is going to be all that!

Edit: BTW, I did end up loosing this round. The combo of Germany and Mongolia's DOWs around Turn 55 was too much. Mongolian horseman are.... good in early game. I didn't have enough Hoplites to make a difference

 

[Fluphen Azine]

Thanks for sharing eleven11 a difficult game that ended in a loss. Usually on these boards everyone is winning Deity in 100 turns or so and talk about how easy it is. I remember in Civ V we had a patch where the AI was very aggressive and they would show up with huge armies by turn 25 and players were getting rolled pretty good until they nerfed it down a tad. Not that I think Civ VI is harder than Civ V but I feel Deity is getting more challenging compared to what it was.

I love playing Gorgo though... you can really get a ton of culture. I still find Hoplites to be a weak unit... do they still have that bug where the bonus stacks? Every time I try to use them they get wrecked by archers lol so I try to get swords up instead.

I look forward to more of your games and advice and I look forward to everyone's input as well. Especially those of you who seem to be able to sweep the map in 150 turns or less.

 

[kb27787]

Thanks for sharing eleven11 a difficult game that ended in a loss. Usually on these boards everyone is winning Deity in 100 turns or so and talk about how easy it is. I remember in Civ V we had a patch where the AI was very aggressive and they would show up with huge armies by turn 25 and players were getting rolled pretty good until they nerfed it down a tad. Not that I think Civ VI is harder than Civ V but I feel Deity is getting more challenging compared to what it was.

I love playing Gorgo though... you can really get a ton of culture. I still find Hoplites to be a weak unit... do they still have that bug where the bonus stacks? Every time I try to use them they get wrecked by archers lol so I try to get swords up instead.

I look forward to more of your games and advice and I look forward to everyone's input as well. Especially those of you who seem to be able to sweep the map in 150 turns or less.

Hoplites suck... They are the +4 era score unit which is completely useless against everything, warriors included. Against mongol horses it's always tough but a clump of double promoted archers and walls generally are better than spearmen.

I only manage t170-200 usually (culture), with Gorgo maybe on the lower end of that range... never have been able to do it without computers though. T150 is too fast for me (not talking domination of course). I do not conquer unless I have an emergency or someone DoWs me though (I like my different VCs to be varied otherwise everything is an offshoot of domination)

 

[TheMeInTeam]

As I mentioned, since the last couple patches, the AI rush will generally ignore your defensive troops (unless they are weak enough to kill, or blocking access to the capital) and just suicide rush your capital with attacks until it is conquered. Thus, old strategies like carefully positioning warriors as bait will no longer work in most instances. As a result, warriors are less useful against the bum rush. On Deity, AI warriors are just more powerful than player warriors, so you can't really expect a couple of your warriors to defend against 5 or 6 AI warriors, plus whatever ranged support they manage to bring.

Warriors choking AI path into your capital get attacked, and to be fair they must be. It's very difficult to take a city with only 1-2 hexes being valid attack angles, and warriors positioned this way can ZoC AI warriors like crazy limiting their ability switch healthier ones to attack more. How viable pure warrior defense is varies wildly on terrain, but they're an important part of the defensive setup because of the blocking/ZoC.

Starts like the ones Victoria posted here are very defensible. Two warriors fortified on the N or S border (depending on AI attack vector) forcing to attack fortified from 3 hexes each on horrible terrain just shuts down most aggression for plenty of time to get archers going and start really killing things.

Nidaros is even harder to break 2 fortified warriors. From the S the pathing takes ages and opens up only one hex. From the N you'd leave river crossing attack on city open and post up on hill across river. These are miserable positions for AI to break.

The general gist is to force AI into attacking city from one hex, otherwise it's stuck attacking your warriors. This allows warriors to be either adjacent to city (blocks attack entirely) or an extra tile away (ZoC). One slinger in city means any unit attacking city must eat damage from doing so + slinger shots as city heals.

Defending a 2nd city is a bit more situational, since you need to predict where the AI will approach. If you're between AIs you are going to need a few extra units to be safe.

 

[Forster]

eleven11, for some reason your hide boxes are not opening to a picture.

 

[eleven11]

eleven11, for some reason your hide boxes are not opening to a picture.

Yeah... so they were linked from my steam online account and I accidentally deleted every single picture I had in there. Too bad because this was one of the more amusing games I've ever played. I was at war with 2 civs north and south and had 2 raging barbarian camps storming my cities. I probably killed 50 things in half as many turns. The only reason I lasted as long as I did was Mongolia's warrior swarm started taking out the barbarians

 

[MarigoldRan]

After the Spring Patch I have been getting rolled pretty good lately. Not every game but the AI seems to be showing up more on my doorstep by turn 20-30 with a pretty good sized army and attacking the Capital. Am I the only one this is happening to? I always play Pangea Deity/Stand/Stand/Stand. I notice it happens when I get a little greedy and move 2 turns to get double horses or something like that. Perhaps I need to just Settle In Place to prevent this? Anyone have a standard Build Order to prevent a rush or other tactics I might not be aware of? Do I need to pay more attention of my map location? I think that might be part of the problem... I notice this happens when I am in the middle.

Play Nubia and go MINING first. Slinger-builder. Chop forests if you feel threatened.

Don't get greedy. You can always build a second builder after you're safer for Craftsmanship boost.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

I just played a game as Gorgo.
Deity/Standard/Standard/Pangaea
Usually I just roll with this Civ and generate so much culture it is a joke.
I thought I had a really good start with her and was friendly with all neighbors.
I was getting boxed in right from turn 5 but I figured I would build a military and either defend or get someone to 2v1 one of my neighbors with me.
Monty was a +15 Green Modifier but would not DoF me!?
I was clearing two barb camps and didn't have enough defense when he brought his Eagle Warriors.
I guess the only way to defend this was to BLOCK him before he got close enough.
I felt I didn't need to block because I thought we were going to DoF.
He refused and I couldn't hold back the attack.
I haven't been rolled in about 40-50 games but it still can happen if you make early game mistakes.
+15 Green and he refused DoF and just rolled me!
I am still in a bit of shock but I should of stuck to my original plan of a blocking wall.
It is rare but even Civ VI Deity still can be cruel in the early game.

 

[liv]

Monte is treacherous. If he is close he will surprise attack. I have had success with archers and lucky city placements but he can get me for sure