Getting Started

[skodkim]

Thalassicus

I think you need to update the compatibility - ingame.xml mod

I run a lot of mods and some of them use the Ingame.xml file including InfoAddict and therefore use the compatibility mod (great idea btw!).

1:
yesterday I couldn't get InfoAddict to work.

After downloading InfoAddict I deleted the xml (after backup) from it and used the compatibility - ingame.xml mod. Didn't work though.

Then I noticed the Lua\ path prefix in InfoAddict's ingame.xml which differs from the one in the compatibility mod where the prefix isn't there. Whether it should be I don't know. Just raised the question on InfoAddicts thread.

Anyway the game was kind of sensitive to me meddling with the files and the only way I could get InfoAddict to show up was to delete the mod and download/install it again - even though that meant I had multiple ingame.xml files.

2: I also noticed that the additions to the ingame.xml from Emigration v2 is different from the additions you've made to the compatibility mod concerning the same mod.

Hope it helps!

\Skodkim

 

[Thalassicus]

Including the path is actually not advisable, since you'd have to manually change it any time the modder moves the file around in the project. The game uses the md5 code to refer to the file, which includes the path and is automatically updated by ModBuddy in the appropriate mod.

Patch 1.0.0.62 altered some things that conflicted with InfoAddict, make sure you have the latest version and it should work alright (I currently have InfoAddict v6).

You're correct that I need to update it to reflect the file name change in Emigration. I've done so and uploaded a new version.

 

[Zeppelin4]

I've uploaded a new version of the Combined package with some additional user-interface fixes in Attila's mod.

@Zeppelin4
The "Combined" download includes Attila's mod.

Does this mean I have to setup your version of Attila's mod manually? I prefer to just download from the mod database if I can.

 

[Thalassicus]

Naw, you can get the one from the mod browser.

The reason I provide the combined pack is you can install all the mods with 1 download and 1 menu action.

The action is "extract each archive to separate folder". This is a context menu option available with some zip extractors... I know for sure the free download version of WinRar provides it.

 

[ezysquire]

Congratulations on your great work in making much needed adjustments to CiV Thalassicus.

I am an old time Civ plaver - going back to the original game, followed up by fairly consistent experience over the years in the various versions.
After having CiV for about a month now I have found myself a bit annoyed by the strong militaristic flavour of it. As is much talked about on this and other forums (to which I have only started visiting since playing CiV) the game has become too easy - more of a military campaign and less of an 'all conquering through empire building' challenge.

Your Balance - Combined mod has gone a long way to improving this situation and I was particularly pleased to see you change some of the civ characteristics (eg Barbary Corsairs to Lawmaker) and it is in the civ characteristics that I see a potential to vastly improve the game.

In Civs of old the player's ability to be at war for long periods of time and in large theatres was typically difficult (war wariness, unit cost etc). This is no longer the case and it is in this fact that I see as one of the main causes for the easiness of the game.

This is compounded by many civs having militaristic traits. This only serves to make it even easier to be at war with a smallish military.
The traits are only of any use to human players as the ai is rubbish at maximising these advantages owing to its tactical ineptitude.
In all Civs of old, ai depended on numerical advantage - and it still does.

In old Civs the challenge to be at war was to build an economy that could sustain it.

This is no longer the case and I think that this is the game concept that needs to be restored to aid in further 're-balancing' the game.
An immediate starting point is to reintroduce war wariness (maybe -1 happy every 10 turns; or whatever)
I think a second key step in achieving this is probably through giving an overhaul to the civ characteristics.

Yes, some civs need to retain military focused - but I think overall the focus of the traits needs to return to notions of empire building.
This is why I was pleased to see the introduction of Lawmaker - honestly, what were devs thinking with Barbary Corsar?
Furthermore, giving empire boosts to civs instead of military traits will enable the ai to build more units, thus helping it get back to its good ol' fashioned 'strength in numbers' approach.

*An issue to be aware of when thinking about the following trait changes is that a classic dimension of the Civ series is that you could always start with any civ (random if you like) and end up playing any way you want regardless.

The CiV traits seem to force you into pursuing certain victory conditions from the outset. I don't like this. There is always satisfaction in being a war mongering Mongol and seeing some wonders pop up in your advanced cities. (A lost fantasy element made fun by the historical immersion factor of civ.) Honestly? Mongols building wonders? - brilliant satisfaction amusement factor.

(Deciding on a victory condition should be a decision made mid-game once you have a strong enough grasp of the world's make-up - not something determined in the ancient era.)

Anyways - onto the trait suggestions (ideas without doing the maths on it):

English - Sun Never Sets (almost as bad as Barbary Corsars)
replace with some combo of the following (staying sea orientated - but not committed to...):
*Give Ship of the line +1 move.
*Elizabeth introduced 'poor law' so give the English a small production bonus to represent this. Maybe +1 hammer per city.
*Prodcution cost discount on coast-only buildings
*Harbour gives +1 hammer per sea resource

Chinese - Art of War
replace with:
*Social Policy cost reduction to signify traditional Chinese ability for leaders to force their will on the people.

Japanese - Bushido - remove: as much fun as the kamikaze trait is...
replace with:
*Increased great general generation rate to symbolise samurai warlords.
*reduced hammer cost of military buildings

Bismark - Furor Teutonics
replace with:
Bismark was a brilliant statesman.
*Give him some 'patronage' style benefits like Alexander the Great (or city state bonus boost?)
*influence in dealing with the major civs - perhaps ability to break certain agreements without penalty or 'more favourable trade terms more likely'

America, Arabia, Aztec, Ottoman - Balanced Combined changes are good and should stand.
Egypt, France, India, Rome, Persia, Russia, Siam - status quo acceptable

Iroquois - still map dependent.
*give them a bonus scout at the start
*+1 food bonus on food resources

Babylon
*remove free great scientist
*replace with a science slot in the walls of Babylon (notion of: safe city allows for more specialist) - double great scientist rate retained

Mongol
remove anti city states bonus.
replace with: unit purchase cost and upkeep reduction

Songhai - retain ability

These changes (including trait changes already in Balanced Combined) reduces the number of overtly militaristic civs to four (mongol, aztec, songhai and japanese) from nine.

Well anyways, this is a monster post so I will stop here. I have no idea how to write mods , this is why I am expressing these ideas in this forum. I'd be happy to give modding a go, but before I try and spend ages learning it, would be better to get some feedback on these ideas.

To finish: big ups again to Thalassicus for his hard work on the Balance Combined mod. I'm sure the whole CiV community is rapt with it.

 

[Thalassicus]

I agree the economic side of 4x seems to be less emphasized in V, I'll leave it up to others to speculate why since it's beyond the scope of this thread.


English
Been thinking about renaming this civ to "British". Elizabeth was admittedly part of England, the last monarch to not be joint sovereign of England and Scotland (this is likely why they chose the name)... but even at that time period it already included Wales. It hasn't been a separate nation since the 1200's. Anyone have an opinion on the subject?

I agree this civ needs some work. One important consideration is the Sun Never Sets trait is actually not most valuable for ships (since they already have high movement points at sea). It's embarkation where it shines. At 4 moves, embarkation is the fastest form of movement for Elizabeth until roads thoroughly cover the landscape. As such, I feel her Ship of the Line UU is actually the weakest link, it's military-only and rather useless for anything but archipelago maps where navy is important. It's the item I've been thinking about replacing, possibly with a unique building tied to the British knack for trade.


Chinese
One advantage of the Chinese UU is its broad usefulness. It doesn't have to be used for offense, defense, or even during a certain era... simply makes units more powerful across the board. China also feels one of the best-balanced between their 3 unique attributes, so I'm hesitant to alter that significantly.


Japanese
I agree this civ also needs some work, it was rated rather poorly in a poll of favorite civs.

A Great General bonus would essentially be moving the Chinese trait here, I'm not really sure that would be an effective solution. Faster production of military buildings wouldn't really fit the characteristics of unique abilities, either (building effects in CiV always go on a unique building). I think the biggest problem with this faction is the Zero... though that might be due to the fact air power in CiV feels very unfinished:

• AI doesn't build air.
• No combat odds panel for attacks.
• No range circle when selected.
• Cumbersome 2-click selection method.
• Agonizingly slow bombing animation.

Especially due to the first point, a unique fighter is completely useless.

One aspect of Japanese history is long periods of autocratic rule, this influenced the culture significantly too, and the relationship between individuals, the community, and rulers. I've been thinking this aspect of Japanese culture might make for an interesting unique Courthouse. Currently, no faction's unique attributes interact with the Annex/Puppet/Raze dynamic.


Germans
Two civs already have unique traits dealing with city-states, I'd be hesitant to add another. It'd be interesting to have some sort of other diplomatic trait. I'm not really sure how it could be done though.


I'll get back to discussing the others later, gotta go.

 

[Seek]

Japanese
I agree this civ also needs some work, it was rated rather poorly in a poll of favorite civs.

A Great General bonus would essentially be moving the Chinese trait here, I'm not really sure that would be an effective solution. Faster production of military buildings wouldn't really fit the characteristics of unique abilities, either (building effects in CiV always go on a unique building). I think the biggest problem with this faction is the Zero... though that might be due to the fact air power in CiV feels very unfinished:

• AI doesn't build air.
• No combat odds panel for attacks.
• No range circle when selected.
• Cumbersome 2-click selection method.
• Agonizingly slow bombing animation.

Especially due to the first point, a unique fighter is completely useless.

One aspect of Japanese history is long periods of autocratic rule, this influenced the culture significantly too, and the relationship between individuals, the community, and rulers. I've been thinking this aspect of Japanese culture might make for an interesting unique Courthouse. Currently, no faction's unique attributes interact with the Annex/Puppet/Raze dynamic.

Definitely like the unique courthouse idea, but a unique palace, temple, theater or castle may be more historically accurate, IMO. I think a culture buff for the UB would not be out of place here.
Also, I'd suggest that the Japanese should have a UA that reflects their historical protectionism. How about this: Enemy units get a sight penalty within Japanese borders, perhaps with a small buff to combat in friendly territory. As it is, the Japanese UA is pretty expansionistic. I don't know if this is possible with the current tools (seems most of my ideas aren't ) but I've had this kicking around in my head for a while and thought I'd share.

 

[Perkus]

Re: Ship of the Line - I think the frigates fairly were useful in my Small Continents game, but it's been a couple of weeks. Maybe we could boost a more useful ship type instead, like the Caravel or Destroyer?

I'm working on a mod to improve the air attack interface somewhat, I'm getting close to having air strike combat odds working adequately. I've also found a few other bugs in the combat odds display while testing it. I suspect the bombing animation speed can be modded, although I haven't looked into it. "No range circle when selected." - I *think* generally see these, which air unit(s) doesn't that work for? Are you referring to attacking, or rebasing? If it's broken, that's probably also modable.

I really wish the AI built a larger variety of units types, as many of the counter units are currently almost useless (anti-mounted, anti-air, anti-sub), and the ones that have a use (e.g. anti-tank) become over-powered. I think the next official patch promises some possible improvements there.

 

[Txurce]

@learner gamer
I originally buffed fish, but there's a few tricky things about them:

• Fish can be very clustered. It's rare to see 4 or more cows/deer/sheep in one area, noticed it a few times but not too often. On the other hand, clusters of 3-5 fish appear to be much more common. I've had capital cities start next to 4 fish resources.
• Fish also provide +2 to the tile from turn one, unlike land food, which are +1 until improved. With an additional bonus, Fish could all be 41 tiles soon after researching pottery, very early in the game to have tiles that powerful.
• Land resources require more techs to improve (with the exception of Wheat, one reason I didn't include a Wheat bonus on the building). Cow and sheep require a pasture, and deer are the latest tech. Sea resources don't need a fishing boat to get their food bonus anymore.

One possibility is I could change fish to a base 11, and improving it gives +1 +1. Currently it's 2/0 and +0/2. Then a benefit from a building wouldn't have the potential for multiple high-food tiles so early. I agree it would fit well with the "Smokehouse" name too, since fish were commonly cured in this way (and I think the civlopedia entry I added even mentions fish).

1 for the Watermill is an interesting idea. An alternative might be to increase the production of engineers +1... something I've considered since I increased mine production slightly. Even in vanilla 2 for an engineer isn't entirely appealing when a vanilla mined hill gives 3, more during golden ages, benefits from building and policy multipliers, and extra gold next to a river.

The smokehouse's boost is specific to certain meats (or fish, if you add that). The watermill's effect boosts food in a city with a river source. The latter is more common than the former. So its net effect being less powerful makes intuitive sense to me. It makes building near a meat source more enticing.

 

[nitroglycerine]

I just want to say, thank you so much for this mod. It has made CiV far more playable for me and no doubt countless other people. Keep up the good work!

 

[Tomice]

Thal, I've been thinking a lot about one problem:

Due to the long build times for units and city defenses, once you crush the main army of an AI and the few units they could rush-buy, the whole civ is a pushover and you can easily puppet or raze all of their cities.

I've made a few suggestions in the "Emigration" thread, but since you are co-creator and this seems interesting for overall balance, I wanted you to know:

Link

IMO, some citizens should escape from captured/razed cities and settle into some other city, or turn into military units.

This way, a civ that lost the initial battles would have a second chance, first of all due to a few additional units possibly forcing the attacker to stop his offensive. Secondly, a civ that lost some cities would most likely have excess happiness and profit from the additional citizens. Finally, a lot of citizens would not disappear from the game, making lategame cities bigger overall.

And it's very realistic, too!

What do you (and all of you here, of course) think about it?

 

[Txurce]

Thal, I've been thinking a lot about one problem:

Due to the long build times for units and city defenses, once you crush the main army of an AI and the few units they could rush-buy, the whole civ is a pushover and you can easily puppet or raze all of their cities.

I've made a few suggestions in the "Emigration" thread, but this is most likely a job for you

Some citizens should escape from captured/razed cities and settle into some other city, or turn into military units.

This is a terrific idea. It feels real, and gives the AI a real boost. X % flee, and Y% of those take up arms. It may be tricky to implement, though.

 

[Thalassicus]

Your suggestion Tomice made me realize they removed partisans! It's really amazing how much stuff we took for granted in earlier versions of Civ. Not having partisans spawn around captured cities really does make it easier for the attacker.

It should be possible with the current tools, I'll see what I can do.


@ezysquire
Continuing from earlier...

England
What if the Ship of the Line is replaced with 50% cost Factories? This would let Britain industrialize earlier and faster. After all, Britain starting the Industrial Revolution isn't reflected in the current traits (neither is their merchant empire). I'm not sure what to call the building though.

Iroquois
Starting with an extra Scout is a really interesting idea, sort of paralleling the change I made to Jaguars starting with Woodsman. Giving them a bonus on food resources is also intriguing, sort of like Russia's bonus on strategic resources. I'll see if I can figure out a good way to fit one or both of these in, either with the Iroquois or other civs.

Babylon
One interesting thing about this civ is it's the only one that gets a free unit from any technology. That's very unique and cool, which is why I've been hesitant to remove it, instead altering the great scientist creation rate.

Mongol
I think the problem with the anti-CS bonus is it's just not valuable enough to kill off CSs. Their bonuses are far better. I'd prefer to find a way to improve capturing CSs instead of removing the trait. One idea is a one-time bonus when captured:

• Maritime: +2 in capital
• Cultural: equal to 15 turns of the normal bonus
• Militaristic: 1 free unit equal to the capturing unit

 

[Txurce]

Your suggestion Tomice made me realize they removed partisans! It's really amazing how much stuff we took for granted in earlier versions of Civ. Not having partisans spawn around captured cities really does make it easier for the attacker.

It should be possible with the current tools, I'll see what I can do.


@ezysquire
Continuing from earlier...

England
What if the Ship of the Line is replaced with 50% cost Factories? This would let Britain industrialize earlier and faster. After all, Britain starting the Industrial Revolution isn't reflected in the current traits (neither is their merchant empire). I'm not sure what to call the building though.

Iroquois
Starting with an extra Scout is a really interesting idea, sort of paralleling the change I made to Jaguars starting with Woodsman. Giving them a bonus on food resources is also intriguing, sort of like Russia's bonus on strategic resources. I'll see if I can figure out a good way to fit one or both of these in, either with the Iroquois or other civs.

Babylon
One interesting thing about this civ is it's the only one that gets a free unit from any technology. That's very unique and cool, which is why I've been hesitant to remove it, instead altering the great scientist creation rate.

Mongol
I think the problem with the anti-CS bonus is it's just not valuable enough to kill off CSs. Their bonuses are far better. I'd prefer to find a way to improve capturing CSs instead of removing the trait. One idea is a one-time bonus when captured:

• Maritime: +2 in capital
• Cultural: equal to 15 turns of the normal bonus
• Militaristic: 1 free unit equal to the capturing unit

The England-as-economic outlier approach is a no-brainer, no matter what the specifics are. The Iroquois one may even have existed in an earlier version of Civ. The Mongol one is a goof fix to an underpowered SA. But I'm not sure the civ as a whole needs it, and I also don't see how it pertains historically (as opposed to for Alexander).

 

[ezysquire]

Your suggestion Tomice made me realize they removed partisans! It's really amazing how much stuff we took for granted in earlier versions of Civ. Not having partisans spawn around captured cities really does make it easier for the attacker.

Ha! Partisans - bring back Civ 1 awesomeness of the pirate looking partisans.

 

[Tomice]

Your suggestion Tomice made me realize they removed partisans! It's really amazing how much stuff we took for granted in earlier versions of Civ. Not having partisans spawn around captured cities really does make it easier for the attacker.

It should be possible with the current tools, I'll see what I can do.

I'm not sure if making them appear next to the captured city is a good plan. They might pop up somewhere between wounded and ranged units, killing a valuable unit through a random event. Or they might end up being sitting ducks (on flat land between strong units). I guess making them appear next to their capital to join the reinforcements might be better (for both human and AI civs).

But thx for looking into it!

 

[ezysquire]

@ezysquire
Continuing from earlier...

England
What if the Ship of the Line is replaced with 50% cost Factories? This would let Britain industrialize earlier and faster. After all, Britain starting the Industrial Revolution isn't reflected in the current traits (neither is their merchant empire). I'm not sure what to call the building though.

Iroquois
Starting with an extra Scout is a really interesting idea, sort of paralleling the change I made to Jaguars starting with Woodsman. Giving them a bonus on food resources is also intriguing, sort of like Russia's bonus on strategic resources. I'll see if I can figure out a good way to fit one or both of these in, either with the Iroquois or other civs.

Babylon
One interesting thing about this civ is it's the only one that gets a free unit from any technology. That's very unique and cool, which is why I've been hesitant to remove it, instead altering the great scientist creation rate.

Mongol
I think the problem with the anti-CS bonus is it's just not valuable enough to kill off CSs. Their bonuses are far better. I'd prefer to find a way to improve capturing CSs instead of removing the trait. One idea is a one-time bonus when captured:

• Maritime: +2 in capital
• Cultural: equal to 15 turns of the normal bonus
• Militaristic: 1 free unit equal to the capturing unit

To more serious issues: England better factory - good idea.
Name suggestion for 'improved factory' = workhouse - a low cost but production heavy institution
I still think the +2 move for ships has to go. This is where the merchant aspect of Britain probably needs to be included. Maybe the answer is to make England good with luxuries in the same way as Russia is with strategic resources.
If the iroquois get the equivalent food bonus, then 'Bob's your uncle' for those three civs.

Babylon: point well taken on the unit from tech point.

Mongol: I think the idea has to be to get away from city-state bonuses, in much the same way as I think Bismark's trait should not be related to barbarian camps. Remembering the basis for these trait changes is to restore some emphasis to economy, perhaps for Genghis the trait should be to do with city happiness. While cities did not particularly like being part of the Mongol empire, they did not wish to revolt either in fear of their city being burned down (probably for a second time). Perhaps instead of having the unhappiness levels measured at bad at -1 and then horrific at -10, for Mongols the meausre should be -1 then -5, then -10, then -15. And in this scale -5 is not too bad and -1 is hardly noticeable.
This trait would benefit during both war and peace.

Japanese: unique courthouse is a good idea.

Bismark: need to get the thinking cap on again

 

[Thalassicus]

Wasn't a workhouse more of a homeless shelter though?

I've been thinking of naming the Japanese courthouse "Shiro," the word for castle. Many towns in the feudal era were centered around castles as administrative centers (much like feudal towns in Europe). Since it's only available to occupied cities I don't plan on including a defensive bonus, but will instead do something simple like reduced cost or maintenance.

@Tomice
Good point, partisans should appear near the capital.

 

[ezysquire]

Hmmm, yeah the workhouse idea is a bit off...
I'll put my thinking cap on.

 

[Tomice]

@Tomice
Good point, partisans should appear near the capital.

Thinking it a bit further, when the last city is taken, the remaining units simply disappear AFAIK (except the "require total kill" option is selected). Am I right?

Turning them into barbarian units seems appropriate and realistic, a little aftermath after a huge war campaign.

Also, the suggested mechanic of refugees and partisans would not work with the last city. While the refugees could simply escape to another state instead of their own remaining cities, The last partisans could spawn as barbs in rough terrain close to the last city, but NOT within the control zone of the attacker's army.