Getting Started

The main point I was making with puppets was that *given* the vanilla changes to other mechanics which have been adopted here, we should consider moving puppets back closer to vanilla (ie: more powerful), because the reasons why we nerfed the puppets are not as valid anymore.

I also think that if we are keeping the general vanilla changes, we might need to revert the changes to Liberty, and push it back to +1 happy, or at least give it a flat +X happy. +0.5 per connected city is not enough.

My recollection is that one big reason why puppets were nerfed is because they're not as interesting as an annexed city. Puppets were positioned as an interim state, with plenty of reason given to move on to annexed status.

I think the change to Liberty has made the game more difficult, but still quite manageable. I prefer it this way... and if it were to change, I don't think it should be by altering mechanics in piecemeal fashion.
 
The reason for puppet/raze nerfs is also the key difference between Civ 4 and Civ 5 warmongering. In Civ 4 there was an gold & science downside to rapid conquest that is largely nonexistent in vanilla Civ 5.

Civ 4

  • A small peaceful empire has a better economy, and therefore more advanced but fewer and less-experienced units (tech over military).
  • A large conquest empire has a slower economy but a large army. Each new city adds an economic cost, so rapid conquest is very difficult, and often pushes :c5gold: and :c5science: to near-zero for a while until we can readjust. Conquest has the advantage of a larger, more experienced, but lower-tech army (military over tech).
Civ 5

  • A small peaceful empire has a weaker economy, since they have a smaller population and therefore less gold and science.
  • A large conquest empire has more research, gold, experience, and troops. We can conquer at 100% :c5gold: and :c5science: income, only incurring a potential :c5production: hit at very-unhappy status. A warmonger has all the advantages of both quantity and quality (better military and tech).
(Happiness penalties for warfare exist in both games; the main difference is gold/science.)

This big economic change for warfare made rapid conquest much too easy in Civ 5. It was so bad people discovered we could ignore happiness entirely and just blaze across the whole map with 5 horsemen. Firaxis mitigated the ignore-happiness exploit but the fundamental problem is still there: quick conquest is much too easy.

Conquest is my preferred playstyle, so half a year ago I decided to make it more challenging. The most direct ways to slow down conquest are puppet/razing nerfs. Puppets and razing are two things only associated with conquest (happiness/gold/science affect peaceful empires too). Once a courthouse is built the city is identical to one built normally, so it does not penalize conquerors in the long term, but encourages us to go at a more gradual pace.

In addition, to ensure peaceful empires have a tech advantage to defend against warmongers' experience/quantity advantages, I changed research agreements in two ways:

  • Requires a Declaration of Friendship. This prevents warlike players from accessing it as easily due to diplomatic penalties. (I'd prefer a DoF to just unlock RAs, but since we can't do that I tied the two together).
  • Combines the research of both players. This helps players who fall behind, and slows down players who race ahead. This also has the advantage of automatic difficulty adjustment: it makes runaway too-easy games harder, and too-hard games a bit easier.

Right now TBC is so very different from the vision and the vanilla game is so good now TBC doesn't have the same appeal to me personally as it did prior to the patch. I know once the patch settles I hope TBC hasn't become just another MOD.

It's the opposite. :) Each vanilla patch adopts things from the mod, so the two become steadily closer and less different over time. I haven't made any fundamental gameplay changes in several months. It's vanilla that's changing, and here's a list of the ways vanilla has become more similar to the mod. You can see the devs are actually including things from the mod at an accelerating pace, with more in recent patches:
Spoiler :
Included in patch 1.0.1.332

  • City Development
    • Unhappiness per city increased to 3 from 2.
    • Production cost adjustments for units/buildings/wonders.
    • Burial Tomb now correctly has an Artist slot.
    • Great Wall now obsoletes with Dynamite.
    • Buffed:
      • Hagia Sophia
      • Eiffel Tower
      • Chichen Itza
      • Machu Picchu
      • Notre Dame
      • Colossus
    • Nerfed:
      • Big Ben
      • Cristo Redentor
      • National College moved to Philosophy.
  • Combat
    • Several more promotions are now lost with upgrade.
    • Extra Sight promotions are now lost with upgrade.
    • Reduced Tank, Panzer, Modern Armor to lower tier city attack penalty (-25%, instead of -33%).
    • Mechanized infantry moves reduced from 4 to 3.
    • Ironclad now upgrades to Battleship.
    • Increased combat strength of siege weapons to 50% of their ranged strength, increased intrinsic city attack promotions (10%/30% -> 20%/50%).
    • Increased Crossbowman and Chu-Ko-Nu combat and ranged strength.
  • Diplomacy
    • Research agreements now give a finite amount of research instead of unlimited.
    • Reduced the amount of gold the AI offers in trade for resources.
    • Influence from killing barbs near citystates.
  • Leaders
    • Arabia: Bazaar now gives gold on oil/oasis.
    • America: Remove river start bias.
    • America: Increase plot buy modifier to 50% from 25%.
    • China nerfed.
    • Babylon nerfed.
    • Jaguar now gets Woodsman promotion.
    • Minuteman now start with Drill I.
    • Mohawk Warriors no longer require Iron.
  • Policies
    • Policy cost formula adjusted.
    • Per-city policy cost adjusted.
    • Culture from cultural citystates adjusted.
    • Reduced the impact of culture from ancient ruins.
    • Liberty and Autocracy are no longer mutually exclusive.
    • Liberty
      • Increased the production of Republic.
      • Removed the free great person from Meritocracy.
    • Honor
      • Gold from killing units.
      • Culture from warfare.
      • Culture from garrisons.
      • Unit production bonus.
      • Professional Army buff.
    • Commerce
      • +1 moves for embarked units.
      • +1 Gold per Specialist.
    • Autocracy
      • +15 XP for new units.
  • Research
    • Metal Casting requires Construction.
    • Scaled up costs of all sciences starting in the mid-renaissance era and on (larger increases later on).
  • Terrain Improvements
    • All great person tile improvements now connect all strategic resources.
    • Academy, Customs House, and Manufactory improve yields with techs.
    • Marsh and Fallout terrain penalty reduced from -33 to -15.
  • CiVUP
    • Gunship anti-armor promotions now work correctly.
    • Civilian unit flags are offset from military flags when stacked on the same tile.
Included in patch 1.0.1.217

  • Scaled up tech costs throughout the game (slight change for early eras; close to double for Modern)
  • Aqueduct building added for early food storage.
  • Moved an artist from Temple to Opera House.
  • Moved a merchant from Bank to Stock Exchange.
  • Liberty tree policies give free units.
  • Colossus no longer goes obsolete.
  • Permanently fixed the Krepost/Angkor Wat bug so they use independent plot cost attributes.
  • Mine and Trading Post improve yield with techs.
  • Lumbermill improves yield with earlier techs.
  • Improves yield of nearby resources:
    • Granary.
    • Stable.
    • Forge.
    • Lighthouse.
  • Buffs:
    • Market.
    • Stable.
    • Workshop.
    • Nuclear Plant.
    • Solar Plant.
    • Lighthouse.
    • Palace.
    • Great Person improvement base yields.
    • Tradition tree.
    • Liberty tree.
    • Aztec culture gain from kills.
  • Nerfs:
    • Paper Makers.
    • Base yield of fish.
    • Food from Sugar plantations.
Included in patch 1.0.1.135

  • Combat
    • City Defense buildings better
    • Naval damage boost
    • Horsemen and mounted units nerfed
    • More units can upgrade
    • Vs unit/city Catapult and Trebuchet changes
    • Less flat land defense penalty
    • Dynamite requires Military Science
  • City Development
    • Medici Bank (new national wonder)
    • Baths of Trajan (formerly a new national wonder) is now a small modification of newly added Circus Maximus.
    • Library specialist nerf
    • Research Lab specialist buff
    • Watermill buff
    • Colosseum nerf
    • Stadium buff
    • Courthouse cost reduction
    • City Defense maintenance reduction
    • Forbidden Palace nerf
    • Kremlin (game now has better AI)
    • Ironworks production modifier
    • Per-city unhappiness increase
    • Per-population unhappiness decrease
    • Happiness-based golden age buff
  • Diplomacy
    • Maritime nerf
  • Policies
    • Tradition policy gives %-based capital growth modifier
    • Landed Elite buff
    • Monarchy buff
    • Reorganized prerequisites of policies in the Tradition tree.
  • Terrain Improvements
    • Natural Wonders yield buffs.
  • Civ V Unofficial Patch
    • With luck a Scout could turn into a Rifleman or better in the ancient era and wipe out a continent. Ancient Ruins no longer can provide such a dramatic tech leap.
    • Happiness calculation now includes garrisoned units (display bug only).
    • Fixed bug with pipes between techs (display bug only).
    • Floating Garden now correctly states it can be built adjacent to any freshwater.
    • Cities heal more quickly (part of next official patch).
    • Advanced Ballistics quote matches voiceover quote.
    • Corrected tooltip of Ramkhamhaeng to indicate his 100% increase to city-state food bonuses in cities outside the capital.
Included in 1.0.0.62

  • City Development
    • Engineer buff
  • Civ V Unofficial Patch
    • Free Thought social policy tooltip displays the correct 1:c5science:.
    • Building the “Wealth”city process now gives 25% :c5gold:/:c5production:ratio.
    • Workers will no longer override previous improvements when automated.
    • Engineer specialists provide 2:c5production:.
    • Corrected promotions for Minuteman and Helicopter. The ground unit can now use roads, and the flying unit cannot. This was reversed, as shown by the domain-color on the promotions being swapped. (Partially fixed, but not completely. I removed the Minuteman part that was fixed.)

This is documented on the civmodding.wordpress.com/included page. Vanilla actually made a much more radical change than anything I've done in TBC: policy finishers. ;)
 
My recollection is that one big reason why puppets were nerfed is because they're not as interesting as an annexed city. Puppets were positioned as an interim state, with plenty of reason given to move on to annexed status.
As I recall, the main reason why puppets were nerfed is that they were too strong, and it was too easy to run an empire of puppets.
I don't think it is reasonable to expect that every puppet should eventually be annexed, I think we lose the possibility of an interesting intermediate state; a low productivity city that has lower happiness requirements but still gives you territory.

If we thought the TBC puppet balance was good before, it seems that changes that reduced the value of puppets further should be an argument for countervailing changes that increase the value of puppets, either by reducing their happiness cost or reducing their yield penalties.
Another possibility; since the happiness cost of extra cities has declined dramatically, we could reduce the puppet culture penalty from -75% to -25%.

I don't think it should be by altering mechanics in piecemeal fashion.
When someone poses a specific change, you seem to oppose it because you don't think changes should be made in a piecemeal fashion. When someone poses a general set of changes, you seem to oppose it because you argue that changes should be made on a case by case basis ("balance only one tree at a time". When I argued for a change away from vanilla for Meritocracy (because +1 happy per city seemed too strong), you said that I was wrong because all the vanilla changes work together. When I suggest a possible change back towards the vanilla value because my earlier judgement might have been wrong, you say I am wrong because the change was a good one.
This seems inconsistent. Please discuss changes on their merits.
 
1. I don't think it is reasonable to expect that every puppet should eventually be annexed, I think we lose the possibility of an interesting intermediate state; a low productivity city that has lower happiness requirements but still gives you territory.

If we thought the TBC puppet balance was good before, it seems that changes that reduced the value of puppets further should be an argument for countervailing changes that increase the value of puppets, either by reducing their happiness cost or reducing their yield penalties.

2. When someone poses a specific change, you seem to oppose it because you don't think changes should be made in a piecemeal fashion. When someone poses a general set of changes, you seem to oppose it because you argue that changes should be made on a case by case basis ("balance only one tree at a time". When I argued for a change away from vanilla for Meritocracy (because +1 happy per city seemed too strong), you said that I was wrong because all the vanilla changes work together. When I suggest a possible change back towards the vanilla value because my earlier judgement might have been wrong, you say I am wrong because the change was a good one.
This seems inconsistent. Please discuss changes on their merits.

1. I don't see what's so interesting about "a low productivity city that has lower happiness requirements but still gives you territory," but regardless, that is how I would describe puppets in their present state. What the equation was before isn't particularly relevant to me.

2. Changes should not be made in a piecemeal fashion because the game has been changed systemically. An example: recently you said city spamming is now back (a nerf to tall empires), and then today say Liberty's happiness has been nerfed too hard (a nerf to wide empires). I don't care about the seeming contradiction - my real point is it's quite possible that these perceived nerfs work hard in hand. And it takes time to arrive at a conclusion on this... which is why when you posed a general set of changes without (in my opinion) sufficient playing experience, I opposed it on general principle.

This doesn't mean that I think the present state of vanilla or TBC is perfect. But if we were to, for example, approach the SP's one tree at a time, and pause to discuss the overall effect proposed changes may have on the game, then I would be more comfortable. As I keep acknowledging, I very much like that the game now requires more effort. Whenever I see any proposal that makes it easier without balancing it somewhere else, I'm going to oppose it.
 
I prioritize the order of doing changes by:

  • How important it is.
  • How easy it is to implement.
Dozens of simple data edits to the various policy trees, wonders and buildings in v8.1-8.2 took about 10 hours in total, a few minutes per change. One new manually coded effect like spoils of war (the new honor finisher) took ~40 hours to create and adjust over the span of a week! :crazyeye:

I do the quick one-minute adjustments first, then go back and do harder things later. This is why the changes might appear to be scattered around the game at first, but I do have final goals in mind on my todo list, and other more difficult adjustments to make. It's a combination of global top-down and piecemeal bottom-up approaches just due to the fact some things are literally ten times harder (or more) than others.
 
Longish post
Spoiler :
1. I don't see what's so interesting about "a low productivity city that has lower happiness requirements but still gives you territory," but regardless, that is how I would describe puppets in their present state. What the equation was before isn't particularly relevant to me.
In their present state, they aren't really worth the happiness, because they still cause almost as much unhappiness as a regular city.

If they caused less unhappiness, then they might still have a role.

What the equation was before isn't particularly relevant to me.
If you didn't think they were too weak before, then changes that nerfed them should presumably want to make you want to compensate for that in some way, no?
I am worried that if puppeting is too weak, then we go back to a situation where razing the city is better, or we end up with a situation where the rewards for warmongering are too low.

recently you said city spamming is now back (a nerf to tall empires), and then today say Liberty's happiness has been nerfed too hard (a nerf to wide empires)
I don't think I said city spamming was back (if I did, then I probably mis-spoke, and should correct my impression), I think I said that the balance in TBC has shifted away from tall empires towards wide ones. I think this is correct, and a bit unfortunate. I dislike the general shift from +X% modifiers towards +X modifiers from buildings.

and then today say Liberty's happiness has been nerfed too hard (a nerf to wide empires)
Yes, I think my initial impression on Meritocracy may have been incorrect, given all the other happiness changes. I don't like forcing happiness onto Wonders and social policies, but if this the design we are going with, then they need to give significant happiness.

Changes should not be made in a piecemeal fashion
when you posed a general set of changes ..., I opposed it on general principle
So, you oppose both general and specific changes I suggest on general principles. Nice.

But if we were to, for example, approach the SP's one tree at a time, and pause to discuss the overall effect proposed changes may have on the game, then I would be more comfortable.
Why? What is so special about the individual tree structure?
Why is the relative value of policies within a tree more important than the relative values of policies across the trees?
You are not forced to pick policies only from 1 tree at a time, you can play across trees. I don't see any reason why the tree is the appropriate scale for changes.

I prioritize the order of doing changes by:
How important it is.
How easy it is to implement.
This sounds like a good approach to me. I think there is room for a lot of gradual tweaking and changing things; you test something out, if it works, you keep it, if it doesn't, you change it back.
 
... the balance in TBC has shifted away from tall empires towards wide ones. I think this is correct, and a bit unfortunate. I dislike the general shift from +X% modifiers towards +X modifiers from buildings.

Both prepatch vanilla and TBC were a little too tall-empire-centric, because the specter of ICS still haunted the game. Now that that's been effectively dismissed I think it's good that the devs and Thal are allowing for some more power in wide empires - they should be balanced so that either playstyle is viable and it seems to me that there has been some success here.

As I peviously suggested, I think National Wonders should be heavily %-based. Another tactic could be to trade off between flat bonuses and % bonuses in each building line, similar to how the science line works: Library=(somewhat) flat bonus, Uni=% bonus, etc. This is one way to approach it, but what the devs have decided is to simply give each building (at least in the gold and production lines) a small flat bonus and a small % bonus. Perhaps the other lines (science and food) should be normalized like this (and the production line made so that prereqs are required - ie, make it a proper "line" of buildings).

Ultimately both wide and tall should be of roughly equal value.
 
I don't think I said city spamming was back (if I did, then I probably mis-spoke, and should correct my impression).

Yes, I think my initial impression on Meritocracy may have been incorrect, given all the other happiness changes.

So, you oppose both general and specific changes I suggest on general principles. Nice.

Your changes of mind about proposals you made so recently support my original point about doing more testing before proposing piecemeal (or worse, sweeping) changes to the mod. As you found out, the other happiness changes do affect Meritocracy. That's why it pays to step back and consider the patch more holistically.

Speaking more broadly, it's clear that we have a significantly different feeling about the effects of the new patch. I've made no pretense about my really liking the new patch, and therefore preferring to be more conservative as to how TBC alters it. Thal has a pretty exemplary record with TBC, so I'm optimistic that I'll be happy with where it will wind up post-patch.
 
Another tactic could be to trade off between flat bonuses and % bonuses in each building line, similar to how the science line works: Library=(somewhat) flat bonus, Uni=% bonus, etc. This is one way to approach it, but what the devs have decided is to simply give each building (at least in the gold and production lines) a small flat bonus and a small % bonus. Perhaps the other lines (science and food) should be normalized like this (and the production line made so that prereqs are required - ie, make it a proper "line" of buildings).

Regardless of which we would go on this - presumably whatever's easier for Thal - I like this sort of approach to balance.
 
In general:

  • Easy - copying an effect already in the game (minutes).
  • Hard - creating a new effect (hours). Once added it becomes type A.
Past examples:
  • Resource bonuses with Steam Mill (copied from Mint, Seaport, etc).
  • +50% surplus food with Pioneer Fort (did not exist on any other building).
Copying the tall/wide combo :c5production: use to :c5science: buildings is type A, very easy to do. The question is... should we? I think the variety of improving yields in different ways is interesting. :)
 
The question is... should we? I think the variety of improving yields in different ways is interesting. :)

I agree: I would hate it if every t1 building was +4, t2 building was +25%, etc for all yields. It would be boring. Ahriman had mentioned more than once that he feels the balance is tilted toward wide empires now, and I wanted to respond. I was just giving examples of various methods of balance that could be used to balance between wide and tall (and showing what direction the devs have decided to go) and *not* suggesting that any specific change be implemented - except that National Wonders be more %-based. Sorry if that wasn't clear.:)
 
I like %-based national wonders as well, which is why I shifted them more in that direction from vanilla. I might alter that further... will think about it for a while.
 
I have another point to raise: The Monarchy policy is definitely overpowered. It grants production bonus to wonders AND grants a Great Engineer, which = instant wonder. With the Hagia Sophia, you can get 2 instant wonders (HS provides GP of choice). And the AI seems to know this, resulting in wonders popping up everywhere in the first 50 turns. Their construction is now determined by whoever has the most advanced tech level and a great engineer handy, not necessarily by the one with the production to spare. Intentional or not, I find this seriously OP, and one AI player in my game is running riot with a score of 100 more than the rest in part because of the Great Engineer wonder exploit.

Also, I would again like to reiterate that with the patch's re-haul of Happiness values could you consider changing the Puppet unhappiness value / penalties to hew more towards vanilla? Just a suggestion.
 
I have another point to raise: The Monarchy policy is definitely overpowered. It grants production bonus to wonders AND grants a Great Engineer, which = instant wonder. With the Hagia Sophia, you can get 2 instant wonders (HS provides GP of choice). And the AI seems to know this, resulting in wonders popping up everywhere in the first 50 turns. Their construction is now determined by whoever has the most advanced tech level and a great engineer handy, not necessarily by the one with the production to spare. Intentional or not, I find this seriously OP, and one AI player in my game is running riot with a score of 100 more than the rest in part because of the Great Engineer wonder exploit.

That's a very good point. In my current game I was curious how the Hagia Sophia & Angkor Wat both got built so close together. I confess I also cheated-using Monarchy to instant-build The Great Wall!

Aussie.
 
So, might have gotten missed with some of the deep philosophical modding conversations going on, but...

What happened to the Victory Progress screen? To be honest, I don't know if this is a Vanilla item, a TBC item or what, but it's not there anymore and it's quite useful...

It's definitely useful. I know it's there in vanilla, because I've used it post-patch. I haven't had the occasion using TBC, but wonder if anything in the mod would make it disappear.

I have another point to raise: The Monarchy policy is definitely overpowered. And the AI seems to know this, resulting in wonders popping up everywhere in the first 50 turns.

OP or not, is this different from pre-patch with the Liberty policy that gave you a GP? I seem to recall the same circumstances - all of a sudden all of the Liberty Ai would be knocking out Wonders, and if I was in Tradition going for a cultural victory, only had an outside shot at Stonehenge.
 
Liberty gives any great person of our choice. It's somewhat later but there's not much difference there. I do feel the Liberty policy is overpowered and intend to remove it again, but I don't see a problem with a wonder-building policy helping us get wonders. :)

I actually feel building a Manufactory is more useful than a wonder. Manufactories get very powerful now and can be used for wonders, units or buildings.

Also, I would again like to reiterate that with the patch's re-haul of Happiness values could you consider changing the Puppet unhappiness value / penalties to hew more towards vanilla? Just a suggestion.

Puppets already have the same happiness values as vanilla.

I detailed the need for reducing warmonger research in the thread below:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=10653867#post10653867
 
I came across a thread on another forum where they were discussing the city states. Basically they were saying how the CS AI likes to raze where it can instead of capturing the cities.

The quote "Well if that is the case, I feel that the AI of the CSes should be tweaked to burn less based on what I stated in my OP. I think it would add a whole new dynamic knowing that the lowly CS to your side can become a significant threat it left unfettered."

Wondering if this has been tweaked in your mod?
 
Thank you for the suggestion. I checked, and there do not appear to be any variables controlling CS decisions available to us, so it's not possible. The AI is mostly done in the c++ part of the code only Firaxis has access to. Aside from some minor tweaks (to attitudes and building priorities in cities) we cannot alter the AI. :)
 
I came across a thread on another forum where they were discussing the city states. Basically they were saying how the CS AI likes to raze where it can instead of capturing the cities.

If you think about it, that means they would burn every city except capitals - but I have seen them take quite a few non-capitals. I think CS burn a city if they can't handle the happiness hit.
 
Thats a shame. One day when the code is accessible it would be a nice change to see. Until then I will keep playing with your mods. Thanks for your work on these.
 
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