Getting whupped on a small map. Any advice for a newb next time?

[splunge the 2nd]

I'm a newb, playing my second game. My first on Chieftan was a snap, rolling over all the AI and winning by elimination in the industrial age. I'm trying the game on Regent now, playing the French on what I take to be a small map. My early expansion looked promising with bonus grassland and the occasional wheat and cows near my subsequent towns, but I ran up against the Japanese who had spearmen to my warriros (I was hurrying to get to Republic first and didn't get the milatarily useful techs early) and jungle on the other side. Japan got iron first and built swordsmen. I had no iron in my territory, horse were hard to reach and I had few towns. Not surprisingly Japan warred on me and other civs declared on me when I resited their demands for techs. Now I'm stuck in on and off war with japan, unsuccessfully trying to get iron, the other civs are expanding all over and it looks like an early retirement for Jean D'Arc.

Any advice if you're squeezed on a small map and lack milatary resources?
Thanks!

 

[Tone]

First point: Chieftain to Regent is a big jump. I'm not saying that you shouldn't persevere with it-just be aware that you've moved from a level where you have a 100% bonus over the AI to one where you are on an equal footing. On chieftain they have to store 40 food to grow a pop point on its towns when you need only 20 and they need to accumulate 20 sheilds to build a warrior when you only need 10. You also benefit from quicker research on the lowest level and they don't tend to trade with one another (assuming that they ever find one another due to a lack of units to explore with in the early game).

Food is key in the early game. Did you head for those cows and wheat tiles first? Did you have enough workers to irrigate those tiles and develop your towns? You say that you didn't have many towns so maybe cocentrating on food to get more settlers/workers out quickly will help you. More towns and more roads = more commerce/research and unit support = greater power.

If you are really boxed in without any strategic resources, a pretty small force of half a dozen archers with support from a stack cats (plus maybe a spear) can take on any Regent AI early in the game. Build a few core towns and then go all out on military. They'll be expanding and certainly won't have more than two spears in any town. Outlying towns may have just a single warrior if you catch them really early. Capture on or two towns, raze another and you'll have space to expand into when you agree a peace treaty. They'll even pay you a few techs for peace. Just don't be half hearted; if it's war, then go for the throat and be decisive.

If you want more specific advice, post a save here and people will be lining up to help you out!

 

[AutomatedTeller]

Going for republic is almost always a good idea - I applaud you for doing it!! It's pretty easy to get, especially as France.

Some specific thoughts:

- Trade more. You start with Masonry and Alphabet, which are the two most expensive starting techs. The AI will almost always go for Bronze working and warrior code, so trade Masonry for those, ceremonial burial and the wheel. Then the AI will usually go for Iron working... so trade Alphabet for that If you can't trade alphabet for that, trade writing for it (though you should probably wait until you have Code of Laws, so you can get Philosophy first)

- Send out scouts. A couple of your early warriors can go out scouting and finding other civs, so you can trade for iron working, etc

- Give in to demands. It sucks to do that, I know, but doing so will buy you time to get stronger. Usually - sometimes, of course, a demand is just a precursor to a stack of legionnaires, but there's nothing to be done about that. In that vein, never run a deficit in the expansion phase, when you probably don't have a lot of money. An AI might demand all your money and if you are running a deficit, you'll have a unit or building disbanded.

 

[Aabraxan]

On trading: Also try to get a raft or two in the water. If you can make contact with the other continent, set yourself up as the tech broker.

 

[Quintillus]

^raft = galley.

For this game, you need to suck it up and give in to the other civs' demands for peace. It sounds like you're in war over your head, no two ways about it. It's better to give in to a demand than to have a war you can't win, and if you have a war you can't win, it's better to end it while you still have something left than when you are down to one city.

Tone has pretty good advice on what to do in these no-military-resource situations. cats = catapults, by the way, not the soft furry cats (Meow!). And if Regent does seem too hard, try Warlord - it's a much easier transition from Chieftan to Warlord than Chieftan to Regent.

 

[Aabraxan]

^raft = galley.

No. Raft = curragh. Getting curraghs across ocean can be terribly frustrating because they sink a lot, but it makes for very early tech trading if you can pull it off. Besides, as a 2-move unit, curragh's are also pretty dandy for exploring your own coastlines, which can put you in contact with other civs on your continent.

 

[splunge the 2nd]

As I said, it's a small world (after all!) and I managed to circumnavigate without having to risk sinking. I have contact with all the AI (as far as I can tell) and it's distant civs who are making demands too.

As to the milatery build up, playing as France, i was hoping for a nice peaceful diplomatic or cultural win, but oddly enough it seems I need "peace through superior fire power"

I'm going to load an earlier save in this game and try to get a bit more offensive units. It's a balancing act of building workers to build infrastructure for cash while keeping a population that can produce milatary force.

 

[Aabraxan]

A save would be tremendously helpful in getting advice. Japan has iron and swords, which (you've noticed) makes the going a bit tougher. Do you have archers or cats yet? You said horses are tough to reach. As Industrious and Commercial, you should be able to scrounge some cash to buy techs and friends. You may have to give in to the demands of closer civs, but don't worry about distant civs declaring on you. Just take the War Happiness and remember that the AI stinks at overseas invasions.

 

[splunge the 2nd]

Here's the latest save (please don't ridicule too much)

 

[Tone]

In that vein, never run a deficit in the expansion phase, when you probably don't have a lot of money. An AI might demand all your money and if you are running a deficit, you'll have a unit or building disbanded.

I remember someone saying recently that when this happens, before you reply to the person demanding tribute you can click on an advisors head and lower your sliders to avoid running a negative budget. I've not played much civ over the past two months and so I've not had an opportunity to test it out but I thought that it was still worth mentioning.

@splunge: Thanks for posting the save. I'm on my way to work now but if others don't comment first, I'll take a look in about 12 hours. I'm pretty sure that someone else will look before then though!

 

[Optional]

Had a look at the save. First thing I noticed, is that two cities are actually rioting. That should really not be happening! Did you overlook that, Splunge? Your lux slider is at 20, so I presume you put it there a bit earlier on to prevent this from happening. Put it at 30, and Paris and Rheims are not rioting anymore.
Another way to deal with rioting cities is to open up the city screen. If you then click on a worked tile, a citizen will turn into an entertainer, and the town will become a bit happier. You can click on the entertainer to turn it into a taxman or scientist. Sometimes this is already enough to get rid of some unhappiness, and you're better of with one of those guys than with an entertainer. A taxman gives you two uncorrupted gold coins per turn, a scientist gives you three science beakers.
Sorry if I'm mentioning things you already knew, but I'm sure that at least I didn't know all of this when I was playing my second game!

There's a good program on this civfanatics site, called Civassist two, to be found in the utility programs section, that can help you managing your game. It will warn you when a town is about to riot, and it will notify you when a new tech has become available for trade. It gives lots of other information as well; it's really handy!

I've seen you before on this site, Splunge, and would encourage you to keep reading these pages. Still some basic mistakes can be found in your tactics, but you're probably progressing fine. I think I'll leave it to others to respond to the tactics...

Edit: Nobody responded yet? Ok, my two cents worth then:
- Build barracks first in towns where you're gonna produce lots of military units. You can really use that extra hitpoint!
- Try not to let your units become isolated. You've got a few units next to Kyoto that are left vulnerable. If you can't mobilize the kind of stack that can take a city, it's better to stay out of enemy territory altogether, unless it's for pilliging. Attacking stray enemy units usually leads to your own units getting counter attacked by the enemy, and you end up just losing units.
- Build more attacking units instead of defensive units. Even for the defense of your own territory you're better off with catapults and archers than with spearmen. It makes you strike first, which is better.
- Lyon (for some reason Firaxis spelt it as Lyons) should have been built on the river. That would have saved you building an aqueduct. I think I would have planted it one tile closer to Paris, that would have left space for one more town on the river, north of Lyon, on the hill. Your city spacing is quite wide, but that in itself isn't wrong.

I think these are the main things I'm seeing. Thanks for showing the save!

 

[gmaharriet]

Ok, I just took a look. Here are some observations and opinions...

1. Your cities are much too far apart. Most experienced players place them at CxxC distance (where C=city and x=space between). Some of yours are at CxxxxC. With cities that far apart, it takes your workers longer to road between them, and a 1-move unit (which can move 3 tiles on a road) cannot get to the next city over to help defend if you are attacked.

2. IIRC, you have 2 archers, 1 horseman, 3 warriors and 14 SPEARS(!). You'd be better off with 14 archers, 1 horse, 3 warriors and only 2 spears. The AI is more afraid of offensive units than defensive.

3. There was a settler wayyyyy over to the west near that Arab town, but no town that included your horses...only a colony. The AI can take colonies away from you just by settling near them.

4. It appears you are playing with "victory points" turned ON, yet you have most of the other victory conditions enabled. I'm not even sure how victory points work, but I believe they're used mostly in scenarios.

5. Your preferences are set so that the game will just keep going without stopping at the end of a turn. It doesn't give you any time to think about what you want to do next, or change your mind. Click on the spoiler tag below, which is how my preferences are generally set. The only one that many of us disagree on is in the right-hand column as "Always Renegotiate Deals", about which reasonable people can often disagree.

Spoiler :

 

[Delphi456]

Here's the latest save (please don't ridicule too much)

Below are a few generally accepted guidelines for newbs.

1. Mine green, irrigate brown. You have mines on brown tiles which usually isn't done. You also mined a cow, which normally should be irrigated.

2. Industrious trade civs should have a ratio of ~1.5 workers per city. You have only 6 workers for 7 cities. Unimproved tiles are costing you dearly.

3. Don't ever build temples or spearmen. There are 100's of threads explaining why, so I won't repeat it here. Build warriors, archers and cats.

4. Build embassies. This can be done after getting Writing.

5. Read War Academy article on Wonder addiction. The AI shouldn't be able to outexpand you at Regent. You can either build wonders, or cities. I think you chose poorly (like many newbs usually do).

6. City placement should be CxxC.

You must have had iron at one time to get those swordmen. Where was it?

Edit: xpost with gma

 

[gmaharriet]

Edit: xpost with gma

Nah! You covered several things I didn't, Delphi. There's so much, it's hard to know where to begin.

Splunge - Don't give up. It just takes time, asking questions, and playing lots of games.

 

[splunge the 2nd]

Thanks all! Some responses in no particular order...
Why not mine the cow? (sounds funny)
I had an iron colony way north east which (as was stated) got taken away when Portugal settled there.
I usually do irriigate brown/mine green, but with all the bonus grassland with a shied, I thought pop growth would help more. Not so?
I'll try a tighter city build. There was resources I wanted to use, so I tried to build near them.
The settler far away went by galley. Is it poor strategy to send settlers across the ocean to start satelite towns?
I made one embassy and was getting low on cash. Other than for investigations (which are pricey) do I need embassies for anything - are they needed for alliances?
Yes, I guess I built wonders too early. Got away with it on chieftan.
Can I change preferneces mid game?
I'm having problems getting Civassist to run. I posted at the end of the civ assist thread http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=118540&page=40

Thanks again for all the encouragement!

 

[Optional]

Splunge, yes you can definitely change preferences mid game. GmaHarriet made a very good point. 'Always wait at end of turn'; very good advice.

Embassies; embassies are required to make military alliances and rights of passage with other civs. Later you can also make trade embargos and mutual protection pacts if you have embassies. You can go quite far without embassies on the lower levels, is my experience. On higher levels it becomes much more helpful to make alliances; the AI's are stronger on the higher levels and it's deadly to stay on your own there.

Wonders: also on Regent you should be able to build quite a few wonders. It becomes really difficult on Emperor. But I do agree with Delphi; you should have had a few more towns by now. And if you're in the middle of a war, and haven't got too many towns, then it's not good to using two towns for building wonders and two other towns for building aqueducts. For the towns that can't go beyond six it's probably better to have them spawn settlers and workers for a while before you build aqueducts.

About cities; I would have to look at the save again to see where you exactly sailed that settler to, but cities you wouldn't normally want to leave very isolated too, it makes it difficult to defend them. Also, a city far away from the capitol will be very corrupt, and less usefull. Then again, if you see a useful unclaimed resource far away, it does become a good idea to get your settler over there. But you wouldn't send a settler away to parts of the map that are still black.

Ah, you downloaded Civassist two! Very good. I haven't looked at the problems you had with it. I had no problems with it, and if there's anyone who would have a problem with that sort of stuff it would be me! But I'll have a look at that post!

 

[Delphi456]

Embassies; embassies are required to make military alliances and rights of passage with other civs. Later you can also make trade embargos and mutual protection pacts if you have embassies. You can go quite far without embassies on the lower levels, is my experience. On higher levels it becomes much more helpful to make alliances; the AI's are stronger on the higher levels and it's deadly to stay on your own there.

When I played at lower levels the AI attitude would greatly improve as soon as I established embassies. Thus, better trade prices, and less chance they will declare. I don't see this attitude improvement at DG or Diety though.

 

[Optional]

When I played at lower levels the AI attitude would greatly improve as soon as I established embassies. Thus, better trade prices, and less chance they will declare. I don't see this attitude improvement at DG or Diety though.

I wouldn't argue with that. What I was thinking, is that the AI's are much weaker on the lower levels, and are less useful in military alliances. On higher levels it becomes much more important to have them on your side, as they are so much stronger.
I haven't really studied myself what a better AI attitude results in.

 

[Aabraxan]

I remember someone saying recently that when this happens, before you reply to the person demanding tribute you can click on an advisors head and lower your sliders to avoid running a negative budget.

Yes. When an AI pops up with a demand, you can click on the advisor and get to all of your advisor screens without closing the diplomacy window (so that the demand is still open). I frequently use this to check with my Military Advisor in determining whether to cave to the demand or not.

. . . . Why not mine the cow? . . . . I usually do irriigate brown/mine green, but with all the bonus grassland with a shied, I thought pop growth would help more. Not so? . . . .

splunge, I haven't looked at your save, so I don't know if it was a plains cow or a grass cow, but . . . With the despo penalty in place, any tile that gets 3 or more of food, gold or shields gets 1 skimmed off the top. So a 3 food tile becomes a 2 food tile. With cows, that penalty has usually already been applied, so a plains cow, which has 3 total food (2 under despo), still benefits from irrigation. And a despo grass cow winds up with 3 food, because the despo penalty has already been applied. So if you think pop growth would help more, wouldn't it make more sense to irrigate the cow? Does that make sense?

The settler far away went by galley. Is it poor strategy to send settlers across the ocean to start satelite towns? . . . .

If you're going overseas to start your satellite towns, you just wind up with 90% corrupt satellite towns that are hard to defend . . . Consider moving overseas after you've cleared your own continent.

Other than for investigations (which are pricey) do I need embassies for anything - are they needed for alliances? . . .

I think you do need them for alliances.

Can I change preferneces mid game? . . . .

Yes, I think you can. Try it and let us know.

 

[PaperBeetle]

Re: irrigating the moo... Aabraxan provides the textbook answer, but technically I think we are taking a logical shortcut. To put everything in the right order, how about looking at it like this: at the start of the game, food is the most important resource. All your citizens should be working the highest food tiles they can reach, and hopefully your towns are positioned to allow your citizens to reach high food tiles. And if your workers can increase the food output of the tiles you are working, then they should do that too, i.e. they should irrigate wherever possible, including this moo. The question then becomes: why am I supposed to mine grasslands? And only then do we get into talking about the despot penalty. :|


Actually, isn't it true that you can only change preferences mid game? It is an option in the game menu, so it is already the 4000bc turn by the time you have access to it. I'm not so familiar with the pre-game settings screens though, as I only play GOTM...