Giant and Undead civilization

[Arctic Circle]

Hi, I am a northener that have played Civ for a long while. Have not posted here although I bought Beyond the sword exclusivly to play the new development of Fall from heaven.



However I was curious if two fine ideas had been abandoned, the undead civilization and the giant one.

With Undead there is a big wooping thread somewhere with ideas and thoughts. But also a gigant civilization would have great potential.

Units, Gigants, Titans, Rock Gigants, Hill Gigants, Trolls (According to Shatner just another sort of gigant), Titans (for immortals) and so on. Can absolutly see some new 'worker' type..

Perhaps with some negative issue when it comes to food production (smaller cities) but with some decently powerful units that (almost) all have bombardment abilities and a good base strength. That for smaller cities, that would yield lesser production and research in mid to end game, costly but powerful units.

Anyone still interested in an 'Undead civilization' or a 'Gigant civilization'? Anyone tinkering?

I especially liked that with the Undead civilization where its cities couldn't grow without killing enemies. Practically the undead units could gain a ability 'return taken prisoners' from killing an living enemy unit. And this ability could only be used in a city, and would make it grow. The undead would be a 'Fallow' civ of course.

When it comes to units, the Undead civilization have a lot of existing models and units to choose from. And if stealing some zombies and similar from other mods, a lot of work is allready done.

 

[reverend oats]

Maybe for a mod. But one thing: it is spelled "giant."

 

[Marnok]

Maybe for a mod. But one thing: it is spelled "giant."

"Giant" is spelled "Giant", but I think "Gigant" is short for "Gigantic", and is a proposed civ name?

 

[micmc]

great ideas AC! and certainly worth pursuing in a mod-mod...by what you said it looks like the mechanics are all in place (I haven't explored the +pop thing yet, so maybe I'm wrong in my assumption)

If I was doing the giant civ, I would have only 1 named giant per city...kinda a private bastion they set up, then smaller support units, or 1/2 giants...and if you stayed true to the orginal D&D ideal, you wouldn't have to make it a stinky dirty giant lair type of civ, cloud giants were pretty fastidiuos and dang good mages.

For the undeads unique feature is just make em, well unkillable, (already being dead and all) so you chop a zombie in half and end up with 2 zombies kinda idea....so the counter would have to be holy magic...or embalming fluid...or when all else fails, 'shoot em in da head shoot em in da head'.

and Mightly Oats! Agnes says Hi, and for you to take a pin to that damn boil.

 

[Arctic Circle]

Yes. Giant.

Civ name for the giant civ could be something more poetic. Norse, Islandic flavor. So would cities and heroes.

Perhaps Kuningas? 'Kings'

Some undead could be made unkillable, there exists some tar demon that is supposed to split in two when killed. So the mechanics should exist. But I rather prefer undead that can be destroyed. Like to see the undead main hero to be immortal though, some sort of evil spirit or wraith-king.

And absolutly for a mod. For example an add to the 'additional civs' modmod.

 

[SwampCow]

More civs are always welcome.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

....so the counter would have to be holy magic...or embalming fluid...

but dont use Worchestershire sause, it dosnt make good embalming fluid at all...

 

[Alzara]

Personally I'd say;

Giants: Yes

Undead: No.

I just can't see an undead civilisation. This was one of the biggest problems with the Age of Wonders series. Undead don't form civilisations, with the possible exception of vampires (which we have as the Calabim). Many undead creatures are mindless or controlled by a Necromancer. The make for fine barbarians, but not a growing civilisation influenced by culture, health and happiness.

I'm all for giants, however...

Al

 

[Tarquelne]

I think both would be fun, and would be willing and able to help with the easy stuff. (XML and simple bitmap.)

I just can't see an undead civilisation. This was one of the biggest problems with the Age of Wonders series. Undead don't form civilisations,

It's just a matter of supplying a decent background.

And look at the Mercurians, Infernals, and even the Sidar. They're all already part-way there.

The biggest problem would probably be the already supplied background. Lore-wise, I'm not sure what's supposed to be going on with life, death, and points in between.

An possible alternative to undead-cities-only-grow-through-war: Allow them to use hammers or gold. This represents conjuring, summoning, or - maybe best - just digging up bodies/souls from the Age of Magic and incorporating them into the civ.

Or perhaps a special "worker" unit? They can "dig" in a tile and that creates a population point or unit that can be used for population? Then the tile is set to "Fallow" - no food can grow.

Population growth could be balanced by where the units are allowed to dig.

Given that, the background story might involve an Age of Magic civilization that's digging itself up. Admirable initiative, I say!

 

[smjjames]

Yea well, the only problem with a giant civilization would be population, they would never be able to grow very large without literally stripping the region of it's resources. Unless they don't eat as much as you think they would.

I guess if they found a way to use magic to produce food for them, it would be more likely.

Still, there aren't many giants in FfH2 right now, just your 'hill' giants and one represenative of the ice giants. I remember there bieng fire giants and a few other types in the first FfH though.

The D&D monsterpedia that I have describes several types of giants, and I'm sure Kael knows what some of them are, plus variations that won't be in any manual or book.

 

[Wyrmhero]

I think I could see an undead civilisation, but IMO, it would be a barbarian civ, united under one necromancer or lich. I wouldn't see them needing gold much, but the necromancer may want it, they wouldn't use culture (how can the dead create art?), but maybe they should have a fixed culture radius. They can't particulaly research, but maybe the necromancer could be pursuing ways to strengthen his army through science. A possibility exists that you could play them as you do the Werewolf civ in the Halfmoon modmod by Loocas, and have them brought in at Necromancy. Maybe they could not get science/culture, but get techs in a similar way to the barbarians...

As for giants, you have to wonder just why they would move into cities, when just one of them can effectively uproot everything in its path. They would need small cities, unless they are forcing humans to work for them. I'd say they would actually have to be something like half-giants (with medium str enhance promotion 'Half-Giant'), maybe with a unique GP like the Grigori which is a full giant, maybe created every 50 turns or so that can turn into any unit. It would have to have the 'Giant' promotion to set it apart (giving it a large str enhancer), and the graphics for the normal units would be the same as for the Giants, but scaled up. They should probably be denied the Mage/Archmage units.

What do you think of these ideas?

 

[Tarquelne]

(how can the dead create art?),

With paintbrushes?

I'm really appalled by the vitalist attitudes I see on display here. You act like if someone dies they should stop living!

I remind you that most of the great art and books appreciated by the world today were created by the dead people.

"Undead yes, unalive, no!"
"You don't have to take this lying down!"
- Reg Shoe

Giants: You might require that cities be built in hills. (For the caves. The idea is it's impractical for them to "build" shelter.)

Another way to handle giants and population is to give giant cities health and happiness penalties, a hammers bonus, and a commerce penalty. I think that'd reflect a small but powerful population.

 

[Wyrmhero]

With paintbrushes?
like if someone dies they should stop living!

I remind you that most of the great art and books appreciated by the world today were created by the dead people.

"Undead yes, unalive, no!"
"You don't have to take this lying down!"
- Reg Shoe

Fair point (how many others know which book this quote comes from? )

But in all seriousness, the general idea of the Fall From Heaven undead is that they are mindless zombies.

 

[Alzara]

Exactly. Mindless undead aren't something that will fit in well with an actual civilisation.

In regard to angels and demons. They do form civilisations, just odd ones. Also, they are actually capable of independent thought.


Al

 

[jaredbb]

Funny, I was thinking of this last night, but more along the lines of "civilizations" that would not have cities, but still fight if given the opportunity on the map. That way, skele's could level off of killing barbs and giants could level by killing everything (except elephants - nobody can kill the elephants). Also, it'd be cool to see different undead spawn from graveyards and different unittypes spawning using the (original?) barb mechanic that assigned the unit based on the prevailing research level across all civ's. Undead horsemen, zombies, the occasional late game lich would be fun.

As for the lonely giants, they live in towers and stare longingly out to sea (when they're not killing barbs and undead) - read EverNoob's story if u don't get the reference.

 

[WCH]

It could actually work (undead civilization), but would require major changes to game mechanics. Specifically... undead don't need health. Or food. So you'd need to replace those with something else that limits population size.

Those are the only major issues, though. In terms of flavour it makes perfect sense -- they're led by a sentient leader (you, the player) who has created mindless drones to work for him. Hell, that makes more sense than the current setup where you have "great commanders" leading heroes around, but yet you're the one who tells them where to go and what to do. You could also say that the leader has developed techniques to make undead sentient, Barnaxus style.

 

[Wyrmhero]

Those are the only major issues, though. In terms of flavour it makes perfect sense -- they're led by a sentient leader (you, the player) who has created mindless drones to work for him. Hell, that makes more sense than the current setup where you have "great commanders" leading heroes around, but yet you're the one who tells them where to go and what to do.

Agreed. It would make perfect sense if you were their necromatic/lich lord who forced them into battle for your gain and your glory.

 

[Alzara]

The topic of undead civilisations have only come up in my circle of friends with a mocking tone as to their previous usages in other games. They work in games like warcraft where you aren't dealing with civilisations as such but that is about it.

I seriously think we are in for the worst if the "undead" become a civilisation of their own.

You can already summon skeletons and wraiths etc using death mana, get flesh golems and all sorts of other alternatives. There is simple no need to try and group them all together to one civilisation.

Al

 

[Tyrs]

I think I like WCH's view. The undead civ would be headed by a lich, or necromancers, and the undead would be the workforce. The few necromancer governor types produce culture. As for having to completely redo the system, just make them fallow like the Infernals. Easy. I like combat as being a means to make population, but other ways would be good. Maybe they could get a pop unit for destroying barrows, or a special option to get some population from graveyards. The idea is to make something new. It would obviously be a modmod, so it's not like you'd have to play it. I think the only really good undead race I've seen was from Planescape: Torment. All undead, still with personalities, not just lifeless. That was cool.

 

[micmc]

Read the Black Company series by Glen Cook, for a good example of an Undead civ. done well....the place was run by the undead, (which granted Lady and the Ten who were Taken were not tradtional "undead" by common useage)

Then you have Uberwald by Pratchett, which again is an undead civ...meaning run by the undead (though granted not all parts of Uberwalld is...(sorry prattchet fans get testy if you get it wrong )

And you have every DM's backpocket high end adventure "the trip into the Lichdom Kingdom" where the people are being held captive by a Lich Overlord to do his bidding but can't do a damn thing about it.

A civ could be undead in nature, --the Leaders, and still be more or less living human...we judge history by what the leadership was doing...cuz lets face it Billy the Bard wasn't writing to entertain Ma and Pa sixpack, he was doing it to keep his head on his shoulders so Queen E. had something to laugh about.

And even Professor Tolkien had an undead kingdom set up..so there is enough source material in literature to draw from to make the case for it..and like all things Modish, ya don't like, ya change it for your own needs

*guilty toe in the dirt*..oh the things I've done to Little Napeleon over the years.