GK2- The Training Day Experiment

[denyd]

Just a quick comment here.

From my point of view your land runs north to south and not east to west, so settle in the directions you are going to be expanding and settle the rest later. Of course there are exceptions to this, when settling to grab resources and luxuries or to build for a specific purpose such as a harbor town, a high shield town (military / wonders) or high food town (worker factory). But to just expand there because it's open space when you've got equal value land in the direction you're going isn't the best idea.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Scout has some good points. It is important that the members of a SG at least have the same general idea where it is going (unless this is one of Arathorn's multiple personality games )

 

[shoguntaka]

Yes, I agree the southern FP city (it has two immediate forests) is better than the western FP. But I still prefer to settle the western one first, because the worker is closest to there, then next we'll settle the southern FP. And the western FP city can make use of that plain E-NE (it can reach the plain, because it can culturally link to the capital, Salamanca). It can be a good 2-turn worker factory, if we build a granary, and if it's size 5.

Q: Why size 5?
A: 1 citizen to work on irritaged floodplain /w wheat (5 ftp)
1 citizen to work on irritaged floodplain (3 fpt)
1 citizen to work on irritaged floodplain (3 fpt)
1 citizen to work on forest (1fpt, 2spt)
1 citizen to work on mined plain (1ftp, 2spt)
And the city radius itself gives (2ftp, 1spt)
and minus 10 food for the population of 5
---------------------------------------------------------------------
It nets us 5ftp, 5spt.
Meaning it can grow in every 2 turns (with granary), and build a worker every other turn as well.

But I think it's very unreliable city, because it'll be working on 3 irrigated floodplain, and the disease will continue killing the citizens, disrupting our 2-turns worker factory flow. Another factor that will destroy that plan is corruption. I'm guessing that the 2nd city will roughly about 20% corruption, meaning when it produces 5 spt, and the 20% corruption will cause it to lose 1spt. (maybe I'm wrong, I'm not expert on corruptin).

 

[scoutsout]

@Shogun - I agree with just about everything you say about the western floodplain city site. There's only one part of that whole post I really disagree with - the point about the worker being closer. As ControlFreak pointed out, we're just a little short on shields in our capitol settler factory. We need to mine the BG NE of the city center. Once we do that, the worker will be on the other side of the river...

I think the western FP site is an excellent site for our 3rd city (not counting the capitol). To the south we've got some jungle and (apparently) some distance between us and Persia. We should be able to settle all the way to the southern choke point uncontested - but - each settler we send south from the capitol is one less sent to establish and control the frontier with Japan - where there is land-grab pressure now.

My current thinking:

First city: Send one settler to the southern FP site. Build a warrior, and a granary. After our first worker finishes mining the BG, have him road his way to the southern FP city, and start improving it. See if we can build this to a 6-turn warrior/settler combo factory.

Second city - a decent shield producer to make nothing but warriors until we get a second shield city going... then we build a barracks in that city.

Third city: Worker factory. For that I like your wester FP city site - and I think your selection is a better one than mine for that city for the long haul.

If we can get 4-6 settlers out of that southern FP city, I think it can make a HUGE difference in the initial phase of the game. (5 settlers from this site would be a 20-turn savings compared to pumping all the settlers out of the capitol - allowing us to move to the next phase of our strategy 20 turns earlier....) The kicker is, to maximize that benefit, we shouldn't delay starting that secondary settler factory by 8-10 turns.... which is what we'll end up doing if we settle the western FP city first (because I think we'll want a unit producing city soon, and do that next...)

That's what I was thinking when I said the southern FP site "strategic potential".

 

[Greebley]

I think Shogun is right on the food issue. It gets +4 food and +2 from the center square with 2 being eaten for +4 and growth in 5.

Irrigate it and you have the +5 you need for two turn growth [Edit: With a granary of course]

 

[shoguntaka]

Where will the 2nd city be located at?

And I agree, I want to make the capital 6-turns settler/warrior factory

 

[scoutsout]

Originally posted by shoguntaka
Where will the 2nd city be located at?

Hey man, don't ask me! Seriously, I think some of the destructors would like us to figure that out together... and by doing that, we'll do something that'll help us a lot longer than simply siting the second city...

...and on a related note, I don't want you to knuckle under and agree with me... I want you to convince me of the strength of your proposed moves... (you've already showed me some things I didn't see at first...) My gut tells me that by going through that process, you'll convince us both of the better alternative...whichever one it is...

I think the second city will be one of the two floodplain sites... but the kicker is, which one, and why? What can we reasonably expect to get out of either site, and which plays better into our strategy?

And I agree, I want to make the capital 6-turns settler/warrior factory

Here I disagree... I think we can build one road, dig one mine, and have a 4-turn settler factory... and get the warriors from somewhere else...

 

[shoguntaka]

Finally, I have some free time now. And I'm about to play it very soon. One thing, Scout, why did you move your worker south of the wine on your last turn? That gave me the impression that you want to start roading to the western FP city.

 

[scoutsout]

@ Shogun - my thinking was to irrigate, then road it...to get another tile that would produce 2 food and a shield. After reading posts by ControlFreak (et al) I think the stronger move is to road it (since he's there) and then go mine the BG NE of the city.

I was actually looking at roading the tile for the second settler, not the first. With the road there, the second settler could move from the capitol W, N, then NW, and plop a warrior factory on the very next turn... instantly adding another stretch of road on what I hope to call the "Highway to Kyoto"....build warriors, later a barracks. As the empire matures this city could be disbanded to make room for the FP city and the one 3 tiles north of the capitol to grow...

...now I'm rambling...

 

[shoguntaka]

My usercp is messed up, anyone experiencing this?

 

[SolarKnight]

Sorry, i was thinking along the lines of using the western site as a worker pump as well, workers are the most important units and i usually like to get them as early as possible.

That said, another settler factory would be great as well, the reason i said west was so that we could get the worker pump ready and then start the second settler pump with the additional workers.

(I thought seen as we already have one settler pump nearing completion, maybe we should take the oppurtunity to do something else before we make another).

My Thoughts)

SolarKnight

P.S. sorry, a lot happens here in this thread and i get lost reading through what i misss when i go to bed.

 

[Zeppa]

I finally read the whole thread. Keep up the good work! I've subscribed to the thread and will continue to follow it.

 

[scoutsout]

Originally posted by SolarKnight
Sorry<snip>

No more apologizing... your thoughts are good ones. Like you, I'm grappling with which move is the better one for building our little empire.

Western site is a good worker factory...Southern site has settler factory potential, and possible strategic location...

If we settle both floodplain sites first... we might risk getting caught short on military... hmm.... I wonder if that's a risk worth taking...

At this point, it sound like neither of us is 100% convinced which is the stronger move....

Tell you what: Formulate an argument to convince yourself, and I bet you convince me in the process.

 

[Zeppa]

My $.02 worth--

Go for a worker city on the second city.

 

[Zeppa]

I'd research iron now. I know you've spent 10 years on another tech, but I'd change that. You cannot win here if you don't have iron at a decent age. You have to buy it unless you research it. JMHO.

Disclaimer--I've never played a game of civ of any type. My disc is due in a day or two. I have read a ton of debriefs from other games during the past week or so.

Just another skulker

 

[scoutsout]

Originally posted by Zeppa
Disclaimer--I've never played a game of civ of any type. My disc is due in a day or two. <snip>

Oh man - get your disk and Join this game! If I had met these guys about a year ago - I'd be a much better player right now.... I honestly wish it was possible for me to explain what it is you've run into, an how it relates to where you are witih the game..

There are several reasons why we're not going for a wonder early.... but let me ask you this - have you read many War Academy articles yet? Ision wrote a piece on wonder addiction that is really powerful stuff...

@ Gengis/Bugs - lets recruit Zeppa here this thing and work him into the rotation... Whaddya say?

 

[ControlFreak]

)*(&^(&$* Forum Updating...

I had a great post all written up but never got it posted. Now it's at work and I'm at home. Oh well.

To summarize, I evaluated the West and South cities. The points went as follows:

Food: West
Sheilds: South*
Strategic: South*

South is the better city.*

*Needs lots of worker turns to make these statements true. Since we have only one worker, get the worker factory up and running first. I.e. Do the West FP city first!

Other part about the west is that it can make a worker every 3 turns without a granary and without mines. The key is to irrigate all the FPs including the wheat. That gives +8fpt. Using the forest drops it to +7fpt. The forest and city will be +3spt for three turns. On the growth turn it also uses a hill which would give the last shield needed to build the worker. It stays at size 6 forever and builds a worker every three turns without any wasted effort. The only thing I haven't checked is if corruption makes us fall short. If it does, I think you could mine the hill and it would work.

Immediate actions would be to use the existing worker to road toward the west FP. NOTE TO SHOGUN@ By the time the worker roads to the FP, the city will have grown to size 2. You might as well irrigate the FP you finished the road on because it gives the same +1fpt benefit as the wheat. Then you can irrigate and road the remaining FPs. Note that you want to cross the river on the same turn as you move on to a tile without a road because both things waste a worker turn. Might as well kill two birds with one stone.

To get the BG in the capitol, your next build should be a worker after the settler is done. This only slows settler production by a little and gets us to 4-turns per settler much faster. Once that worker is done, build warriors until your back to the right size for the settler factory.

Your first build in the worker factory should be a could be a warrior or worker. It just needs to get to size 6 ASAP. Does building the worker first stunt your growth or speed your growth? It depends on how improved your city is. Your first 5 improvements should be irrigating (and roading) the FPs. All five of these tiles will make the city grow faster. So if you are growing faster than you are improving, you need to build a worker. If you are improving tiles faster than you are growing, you need to avoid building workers so that you can use all the food bonuses you have. I think it would be wise to make the first build a worker and have the two workers improve tiles. (The next player to play after shogun will get my comments on moving workers in gangs.)

Something Sir Pleb told us is you always make your decisions based on what benefits you more, food-wise in despotism. At the time he was talking about deciding between building the granary or a settler first. But the comparison still holds true. The Idea is a granary nets you +10f every two turns in high growth city. Thats +5fpt. If you have a city cite that can make +5fpt or more, its better to build the settler first. (Note I would have built the first settler before the granary in this game.) So building a granary can get the western FP city 10f every 2 turns also but a worker can get the city +5fpt or +10f in two turns for a lot less shields and a lot less time. In despotism, its all about irrigateable tiles and FOOD.

The west City grabs a LOT more food than the southern city. Building a worker farm, with all these irrigateable tiles gains a lot more than a granary. A granary in a food rich shield poor city is not cost effective until all the tiles are irrigated and you can start mining some plains to give you more shields. Better to build workers without granarys so they can get you to +8f, growing every three instead of waiting forever for the granary and then growing every 2. Especially when you can grow faster than you can build workers.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Zeppa - If you want to play you're in.

 

[Zeppa]

Thanks for the invite, but I can't comit to playing. I travel too much.

Studied the tech tree and realized no need for iron in horse path. This is extremely counterintuitive to armoured and sworded horse mounted fighters. Does this not needing iron carry on to middle ages?

 

[shoguntaka]

Iron is still significant in Middle Age because of Pikeman, Medieval Infantry, and Knights.