Sir Bugsy
Civ.D.
I think we can trade across sea tiles with the lighthouse. It appears that there are a lot of highways in the sea, that mad bax has left for you. You just need to explore and find them.
GK2- The Training Day Experiment
- Thread starter Gengis Khan
- Start date
coletite
Warlord
If Bugsy's right, then the value of the Lighthouse has just gone up.
If GK is right, then the Lighthouse probably isn't worth using our leader for.
If GK is right, then the Lighthouse probably isn't worth using our leader for.
The Civilopedia says that the Lighthouse gives galleys sea movement, but doesn't say anything about trading over sea squares.
There is no mention of this being patched in the readme, so I imagine the answer to the trading question is "no."
If I get a shot at an empirical test before we start moving the pieces, I'll try to find out for sure.
There is no mention of this being patched in the readme, so I imagine the answer to the trading question is "no."
If I get a shot at an empirical test before we start moving the pieces, I'll try to find out for sure.
scoutsout
Minstrel Boy
Don't get too terribly excited about trading over sea squares. That will come anyway with Astronomy.
The thing you need to focus on is mapping the trading route. It doesn't matter if a sea-lane merely exists. It must be charted.
Which means we need to get some oars in the water...
The thing you need to focus on is mapping the trading route. It doesn't matter if a sea-lane merely exists. It must be charted.
Which means we need to get some oars in the water...
coletite
Warlord
Just because a lucky galley can get across doesn't mean we can trade (I mean luxuries, resources). If the Great Lighthouse does not allow us to trade over sea squares and we are not planning on attacking the other continent anytime soon, then the lighthouse is of little use to us.
So in that case, the options for leader are:
Gardens- Will have a significant impact as our cities grow. (Does it obsolete? If so, with which tech?)
FP- Will be quite a while and we will definetly NOT get another leader during Persia war.
Army- MWs will be useless shortly, but we will free up a spot for another leader and can build Heroic Epic and Military Academy.
I don't want to wait for FP, nor do I think the army will be worth using the leader. That leaves the Gardens. Considering it will be a while before we get more luxuries, I'd say this gets my vote (unless it becomes obsolete soon.)
So in that case, the options for leader are:
Gardens- Will have a significant impact as our cities grow. (Does it obsolete? If so, with which tech?)
FP- Will be quite a while and we will definetly NOT get another leader during Persia war.
Army- MWs will be useless shortly, but we will free up a spot for another leader and can build Heroic Epic and Military Academy.
I don't want to wait for FP, nor do I think the army will be worth using the leader. That leaves the Gardens. Considering it will be a while before we get more luxuries, I'd say this gets my vote (unless it becomes obsolete soon.)
(Apologies for yet another long post. I like to analyze things to no end...it's a product of my 1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 d6 4. Bc4 days.)
Steam Power.
I wouldn't go for "definitely not," but it's not as likely as we might have originally suspected. Not likely enough that we can assume a second great leader, we'll put it that way.
One thing I like about rushing the FP is that we will get maximum productivity out of our new land during our Golden Age. Once the age ends, we can rearrange cities in that region if we want to.
The biggest issue then is making sure there is some Golden Age left after the war is over.
Scout gave some interesting statistics on MW armies...but you'll have to keep retreating the army to heal. It will act a lot like a generic military unit, but a high-maintenance one. (A 13 HP army might have a 50% success rate against riflemen - but I'll bet it won't have enough HP left afterwards to try challenging a second rifleman. That means you won't be able to take advantage of its blitz ability, and you'll have to keep retreating it to heal it.)
Heroic Epic is most useful if we are going to continue to warmonger. I got the sense from other posts that most people want to avoid significant wars with the other continent. (SirPleb's war academy article on leaders discusses the Epic, and it made a real impression on me.)
MA lets us build our own armies, which would be okay to have, although if we were going to use it for prebuilds for spaceship parts we might as well just use ICBMs (was it Alerum who pointed this out first?).
The big advantage to this over the FP is that we leave open the possibility of a second leader.
One general question about obsolescence: Do wonders become obsolete when any civ gets the required tech, or does it only happen when the civ owning the wonder gets that tech?
I ask because if the other continent is ahead of us in tech, they might get Steam Power quickly enough to make HG less useful. We are a full age from SP, but the other continent might be much closer.
I can imagine a situation where we rush the FP with the leader and have a second productive core very quickly. If we go as hard as we can on research from that point and send suicide galleys like there's no tomorrow, getting tech parity with the other continent may not be a problem. Once we have that parity, IMHO it would be better to invest in the medieval happiness wonders - Sistine and Bach's - than in HG, which will become obsolete and is less effective anyway.
I agree that the lighthouse is probably not worth the great leader (not for trade, but because we haven't explored enough to justify using the leader that way), but don't forget that Persia is building it and we might be able to capture it. That would expedite our exploration efforts.
coletite said:
Steam Power.
I wouldn't go for "definitely not," but it's not as likely as we might have originally suspected. Not likely enough that we can assume a second great leader, we'll put it that way.
One thing I like about rushing the FP is that we will get maximum productivity out of our new land during our Golden Age. Once the age ends, we can rearrange cities in that region if we want to.
The biggest issue then is making sure there is some Golden Age left after the war is over.
Scout gave some interesting statistics on MW armies...but you'll have to keep retreating the army to heal. It will act a lot like a generic military unit, but a high-maintenance one. (A 13 HP army might have a 50% success rate against riflemen - but I'll bet it won't have enough HP left afterwards to try challenging a second rifleman. That means you won't be able to take advantage of its blitz ability, and you'll have to keep retreating it to heal it.)
Heroic Epic is most useful if we are going to continue to warmonger. I got the sense from other posts that most people want to avoid significant wars with the other continent. (SirPleb's war academy article on leaders discusses the Epic, and it made a real impression on me.)
MA lets us build our own armies, which would be okay to have, although if we were going to use it for prebuilds for spaceship parts we might as well just use ICBMs (was it Alerum who pointed this out first?).
The big advantage to this over the FP is that we leave open the possibility of a second leader.
One general question about obsolescence: Do wonders become obsolete when any civ gets the required tech, or does it only happen when the civ owning the wonder gets that tech?
I ask because if the other continent is ahead of us in tech, they might get Steam Power quickly enough to make HG less useful. We are a full age from SP, but the other continent might be much closer.
I can imagine a situation where we rush the FP with the leader and have a second productive core very quickly. If we go as hard as we can on research from that point and send suicide galleys like there's no tomorrow, getting tech parity with the other continent may not be a problem. Once we have that parity, IMHO it would be better to invest in the medieval happiness wonders - Sistine and Bach's - than in HG, which will become obsolete and is less effective anyway.
I agree that the lighthouse is probably not worth the great leader (not for trade, but because we haven't explored enough to justify using the leader that way), but don't forget that Persia is building it and we might be able to capture it. That would expedite our exploration efforts.
/removes cowl/
One thing to keep in mind is that the Heroic Epic is a cheap culture producing building and has more long term value than just the leader generation capability. The same is true of any of the wonders (small or great). Even after the building loses its primary benefit, the secondary benefit of culture continues to accumulate.
Wonders become obsolete when the owner acquires the tech which triggers obsolesence
This is the core of the analysis. The sooner you realize the benefits of the FP, the better. However, until you actually meet the other nations use the effect of the FP to build cash and infrastructure locally rather than expending it on researching knowledge which the other nations may do for you. So long as you have the tech which enables you to dominate the home continent, "keeping up with Joneses" you don't know anything about is shooting in the dark.
/replaces cowl/
The Forbidden Palace delivers a permanent benefit that lasts far longer than a Golden Age.GJ said:
GJ said:
One thing to keep in mind is that the Heroic Epic is a cheap culture producing building and has more long term value than just the leader generation capability. The same is true of any of the wonders (small or great). Even after the building loses its primary benefit, the secondary benefit of culture continues to accumulate.
GJ said:
Wonders become obsolete when the owner acquires the tech which triggers obsolesence
GJ said:
This is the core of the analysis. The sooner you realize the benefits of the FP, the better. However, until you actually meet the other nations use the effect of the FP to build cash and infrastructure locally rather than expending it on researching knowledge which the other nations may do for you. So long as you have the tech which enables you to dominate the home continent, "keeping up with Joneses" you don't know anything about is shooting in the dark.
/replaces cowl/
coletite
Warlord
GJ-
Actually, yes, we definetely won't have a chance to get another leader as long as the first one is still around. You can only have one at a time.
Our GA will start as soon as we declare war and lasts 20 turns. By the time we capture the city we want to build our FP in, the GA will likely be over. (Question: can a city with FP flip? My original thought was that if we rush FP in the city we want it in before the war is over, there would be a chance of losing it to a flip, but now that I think about it, if it acts as a "second capital" then maybe it won't.)
Another thought: We are going into republic soon. We will have a GA soon. We will probably be able to build the Gardens AND the Lighthouse (or capture it) ourselves. Maybe we should make an army? Thoughts?
Actually, yes, we definetely won't have a chance to get another leader as long as the first one is still around. You can only have one at a time.
Our GA will start as soon as we declare war and lasts 20 turns. By the time we capture the city we want to build our FP in, the GA will likely be over. (Question: can a city with FP flip? My original thought was that if we rush FP in the city we want it in before the war is over, there would be a chance of losing it to a flip, but now that I think about it, if it acts as a "second capital" then maybe it won't.)
Another thought: We are going into republic soon. We will have a GA soon. We will probably be able to build the Gardens AND the Lighthouse (or capture it) ourselves. Maybe we should make an army? Thoughts?
scoutsout
Minstrel Boy
Though I see consensus building for using the leader for the Forbidden Palace... I see only one real problem with that... there was also consensus for building the FP in Persia. 
My own preference is clear (build an Army and whack something). But using the GL for the Lighthouse or FP are equally valid.
@ Sir Bugsy, Gengis: Who's UP? We've weighed the options on the MGL... time to finish the Zulu, IMO.
My own preference is clear (build an Army and whack something). But using the GL for the Lighthouse or FP are equally valid.
@ Sir Bugsy, Gengis: Who's UP? We've weighed the options on the MGL... time to finish the Zulu, IMO.
coletite said:
Oh, you meant in the case where we kept it. Yeah, then we definitely won't get another
I thought you meant if we built something and then went for another leader from the war. My mistake.Building the Gardens is a possibility if we knock out the Persians, since none of the other civs are building it. (Xerxes is putting it together in Persepolis.) I doubt we will be able to capture both; one would hope the AI had enough sense to switch away one wonder to military.
The forbidden-palace-helps-golden-age note is just a nice bonus. We'll still see a lot of benefit out of having the FP immediately.
IMHO the FP provides the biggest bonus, even if it means we lose the chance to rush anything else in the meantime. The extra turns with the FP will be more useful than extra turns with the Lighthouse or the Gardens, especially in view of the fact that we're building marketplaces everywhere and we'll have our fourth luxury after conquering Persia (= 6 happy faces in towns with markets).
scoutsout
Minstrel Boy
Did Tokugawa have that much sense?GJ said:
coletite
Warlord
Scout: Now that I am an official member of the team, I am referring to Kyoto as Coletite's Gambit! 
One thing that I have learned from this thread is that holding onto units that aren't doing anything is a waste. I really prefer not to hold onto the leader for 30-40 turns. If we do rush the FP, let's do it soon in either Zulu or Japanese territory.
I would even rather build an army, get its first victory then set it aside and let the MWs fish. At least we will be using the leader and opening a chance, regardless of how small, to get another.
One thing that I have learned from this thread is that holding onto units that aren't doing anything is a waste. I really prefer not to hold onto the leader for 30-40 turns. If we do rush the FP, let's do it soon in either Zulu or Japanese territory.
I would even rather build an army, get its first victory then set it aside and let the MWs fish. At least we will be using the leader and opening a chance, regardless of how small, to get another.
Sir Bugsy
Civ.D.
Roster Check
alerum68-
coletite Just played
GJ - Up
qm1- MIA (at sea?)
Mistfit- On deck
SolarKnight
alerum68-
coletite Just played
GJ - Up
qm1- MIA (at sea?)
Mistfit- On deck
SolarKnight
Can we get one last vote/consensus on what to do with the leader? If we're going to rush something right away, I might as well do it on turn one.
After that, someone say the word and I'll get back to doing in the Zulu.
(Edit: I am in favor of rushing the FP unless Persia is so far from its wonders that we can't capture either of them. If that is the case, I may want to build one of them. It's a real "wait and see" thing.
If people are okay with spending 80 gold to check on the Great Lighthouse, I can do that in the save and let you know what we find, then play from there.)
After that, someone say the word and I'll get back to doing in the Zulu.
(Edit: I am in favor of rushing the FP unless Persia is so far from its wonders that we can't capture either of them. If that is the case, I may want to build one of them. It's a real "wait and see" thing.
If people are okay with spending 80 gold to check on the Great Lighthouse, I can do that in the save and let you know what we find, then play from there.)
Mistfit
Deity
Vote:
alerum68-
coletite use immediately FP in Zulu or Japan or Wonder
GJ - save for FP in Persia
qm1- MIA (at sea?)
Mistfit- Rush something...anything
SolarKnight
alerum68-
coletite use immediately FP in Zulu or Japan or Wonder
GJ - save for FP in Persia
qm1- MIA (at sea?)
Mistfit- Rush something...anything
SolarKnight
scoutsout
Minstrel Boy
Just to let you guys know, "ScoutX" is now a discussion thread in the SG forum as a discussion thread. This is a little something Bede and I cooked up... "Jump School", if you will. (See the thread).
The idea is to take 3 Regent-Monarch level players, and team up with 3 "Emperor Plus" level players, and play an Emperor level SG. Although this will not be a "Training Day Game", I've made it clear that part of the idea is for the stronger players to pass some tips and pointers along.
I haven't asked Gengis and Bugsy to join in, because GK2 takes a pretty fair amount of effort, and I don't want to take away from this game. (GK and Bugsy are welcome to join in if they'd like, of course).
Soo... strong players who are lurking, I hope to hear from you. GK2 team - you're welcome to join in. Regent-Monarch level lurkers, you're welcome too.
The idea is to take 3 Regent-Monarch level players, and team up with 3 "Emperor Plus" level players, and play an Emperor level SG. Although this will not be a "Training Day Game", I've made it clear that part of the idea is for the stronger players to pass some tips and pointers along.
I haven't asked Gengis and Bugsy to join in, because GK2 takes a pretty fair amount of effort, and I don't want to take away from this game. (GK and Bugsy are welcome to join in if they'd like, of course).
Soo... strong players who are lurking, I hope to hear from you. GK2 team - you're welcome to join in. Regent-Monarch level lurkers, you're welcome too.
coletite
Warlord
I vote for either rushing the FP in land we currently hold or rushing a wonder.
GJ- make sure you use veteren swords as much as possible (exclusively if possible) to finish of Zulu until after you use the leader.
GJ- make sure you use veteren swords as much as possible (exclusively if possible) to finish of Zulu until after you use the leader.
coletite
Warlord
If we go the wonder route, then I think the Lighthouse, then let Xerxes build the Gardends with the shields he's accumulated for the lighthouse. If we do this, then I'd say just build it on turn 1 right in the city he's in (Kahn).
Mistfit
Deity
Just a quick question (please don't take offense):
Why are you SO diametrically opposed to building an army?
It may be our only opportunity to build one in this game, and I'd kinda like to be critiqued on how to properly use one.
Why are you SO diametrically opposed to building an army?
It may be our only opportunity to build one in this game, and I'd kinda like to be critiqued on how to properly use one.
