Global warming and environmental catastrophe: science or myth?

Actually, MG, my exact opinion on the subject is "I have no freaking idea."

On the flip side, there's a name for trusting the multitudes: it's called "peer pressure".

I know peer pressure is pervasive in science. It's been happening as long as we've had science. Science has contended (at various points in our history) such things as the following: the claim that matter was infinitely divisible; that the world was flat; that the universe was static and unchaning; that the Earth was at the center of that universe; that various forms of life arose from "spontaneous generation". And so on.

At complete random, various scientific theories (formerly accepted as fact) prove to be wrong--or are proven correct, until somebody discovers a flaw in the proof--or it is then discovered that the flaw is bogus and the proof was correct in the first place. Very frequently, the first person to step up and say a cherished theory might be false gets laughed out of the room--and then he later turns out to be right (Einstein was subjected to that; Copernicus was almost burned at the stake for doing it; etc).

The number one thing about the subject that raises a red flag in my head is the repeated claim, by lots of people, that the scientific community is united on the question of global warming. It most definitely is not. While those who think the theory is true appear to be in the majority, many of those on the "true" side say they're not certain of it.

Edit: And I've got a link on my other PC to demonstrate this--I'll post that when I can get at the thing.
 
BasketCase said:
Actually, MG, my exact opinion on the subject is "I have no freaking idea."

On the flip side, there's a name for trusting the multitudes: it's called "peer pressure".

your English be sucky - trusting the majority is far from fullfilling the definition of 'pressure'. Another case where you're not quite master of what you are typing.....
 
The Dictionary

peer pressure
n. Pressure from one's peers to behave in a manner similar or acceptable to them.

My definition of peer pressure is PERFECT. Once again you go off-topic and start arguing semantics. Probably because you've got nothing else. :lol:
 
BasketCase said:
The Dictionary

peer pressure
n. Pressure from one's peers to behave in a manner similar or acceptable to them.

My definition of peer pressure is PERFECT. Once again you go off-topic and start arguing semantics. Probably because you've got nothing else. :lol:

hehe, nice try - but you suck too much at that for me to fall for it.

Your definition of peer pressure is all nice, but you fail to show there IS pressure to accept the majority opinion. It could equally well be lazyness, lack of knowledge, trust in experts - or that the majority opinion gets tested and found correct.

So, please prove that there is PRESSURE to accept the majority opinion (hint: you can't :P)
 
Yes, I can.

Mountain-God said:
... You provide example of one educated man's error, then presume your own, presumably educated opinion is more valid than a multitude?

Hubris.
Boom. I know peer pressure exists, because MG applied it.

A long time ago, everybody "knew" the world was flat. Those who disagreed were laughed at. Peer pressure.

The first guy who postulated the existence of black holes got laughed out of the room. Peer pressure.

The first guy who proposed that the Earth is not at the center of the Universe almost got burned at the stake. He was only spared because he recanted. EXTREME peer pressure.


The examples of peer pressure in science, by scientists, against other scientists, are practically infinite in number.
 
BasketCase said:
Yes, I can.


Boom. I know peer pressure exists, because MG applied it.


bull droppings - that has nothing to do with pressure

As usual, you need to twist words absurdly to back your position - as usual, you are wrong :lol:
 
BasketCase said:
You're the one who went twisting them around.

MG did, in fact, apply peer pressure to me.

:lol:

peer?

pressure?


yeah, and a fly sitting on your head is a crushing weight, too!

you are ridiculous! :rotfl:
 
Speak for yourself. MG is trying to get me to accept the opinion of the multitudes. So are you. Peer pressure.

And since I was in mid-edit:

BasketCase said:
A long time ago, everybody "knew" the world was flat. Those who disagreed were laughed at. Peer pressure.

The first guy who postulated the existence of black holes got laughed out of the room. Peer pressure.

The first guy who proposed that the Earth is not at the center of the Universe almost got burned at the stake. He was only spared because he recanted. EXTREME peer pressure.

Three examples of peer pressure in science, by scientists, against other scientists.
 
BasketCase said:
Speak for yourself. MG is trying to get me to accept the opinion of the multitudes. So are you. Peer pressure.
dead wrong: you're neither a peer, nor is anyone applying pressure. Or will you now call 'giving a logical reason' 'pressure'??? :lol:

Three examples of peer pressure in science, by scientists, against other scientists.

A long time ago, everybody "knew" the world was flat. Those who disagreed were laughed at. Peer pressure.

erh, can't be more specific, can you, because then you become wrong?

if you bothered to read up on scientific history, you'd see that FROM THE TIME ON SCIENTIFIC PRINCIPLES WERE FIRST APPLIED, the scientific consensus was thta Earth is round. No scientist ever applied pressure (some insignificant clergymen did, but they aren't peers) on antoehr scientist to make him or her change his mind.

The first guy who postulated the existence of black holes got laughed out of the room. Peer pressure.
You will have to prove this :D

The first guy who proposed that the Earth is not at the center of the Universe almost got burned at the stake. He was only spared because he recanted. EXTREME peer pressure.
again, your limited knowledge and understanding of hte English language lead to your error: it wasn't 'peers' who wanted to burn him.

So your entire comparison with modern science (btw, please, where IS a recent example?) is simply ridiculously false. Welcome to BasketCase's world: a layperson is smarter and applies peer pressure to the scientific world via the internet and that makes human CO2 and methane production harmless, as earth will look out for itself

(seldom have I heard a more idiotic position, I must say).
 
Global warming 'past the point of no return'

Source: Copyright 2005, Independent
Date:&nbspSeptember 16, 2005
Byline: Steve Connor

A record loss of sea ice in the Arctic this summer has convinced scientists that the northern hemisphere may have crossed a critical threshold beyond which the climate may never recover. Scientists fear that the Arctic has now entered an irreversible phase of warming which will accelerate the loss of the polar sea ice that has helped to keep the climate stable for thousands of years.

They believe global warming is melting Arctic ice so rapidly that the region is beginning to absorb more heat from the sun, causing the ice to melt still further and so reinforcing a vicious cycle of melting and heating.

The greatest fear is that the Arctic has reached a "tipping point" beyond which nothing can reverse the continual loss of sea ice and with it the massive land glaciers of Greenland, which will raise sea levels dramatically.

Satellites monitoring the Arctic have found that the extent of the sea ice this August has reached its lowest monthly point on record, dipping an unprecedented 18.2 per cent below the long-term average.

Experts believe that such a loss of Arctic sea ice in summer has not occurred in hundreds and possibly thousands of years. It is the fourth year in a row that the sea ice in August has fallen below the monthly downward trend - a clear sign that melting has accelerated.

Scientists are now preparing to report a record loss of Arctic sea ice for September, when the surface area covered by the ice traditionally reaches its minimum extent at the end of the summer melting period.

Sea ice naturally melts in summer and reforms in winter but for the first time on record this annual rebound did not occur last winter when the ice of the Arctic failed to recover significantly.

Arctic specialists at the US National Snow and Ice Data Centre at Colorado University, who have documented the gradual loss of polar sea ice since 1978, believe that a more dramatic melt began about four years ago.

In September 2002 the sea ice coverage of the Arctic reached its lowest level in recorded history. Such lows have normally been followed the next year by a rebound to more normal levels, but this did not occur in the summers of either 2003 or 2004. This summer has been even worse. The surface area covered by sea ice was at a record monthly minimum for each of the summer months - June, July and now August.

Scientists analysing the latest satellite data for September - the traditional minimum extent for each summer - are preparing to announce a significant shift in the stability of the Arctic sea ice, the northern hemisphere's major "heat sink" that moderates climatic extremes.

"The changes we've seen in the Arctic over the past few decades are nothing short of remarkable," said Mark Serreze, one of the scientists at the Snow and Ice Data Centre who monitor Arctic sea ice.

Scientists at the data centre are bracing themselves for the 2005 annual minimum, which is expected to be reached in mid-September, when another record loss is forecast. A major announcement is scheduled for 20 September. "It looks like we're going to exceed it or be real close one way or the other. It is probably going to be at least as comparable to September 2002," Dr Serreze said.

"This will be four Septembers in a row that we've seen a downward trend. The feeling is we are reaching a tipping point or threshold beyond which sea ice will not recover."

The extent of the sea ice in September is the most valuable indicator of its health. This year's record melt means that more of the long-term ice formed over many winters - so called multi-year ice - has disappeared than at any time in recorded history.

Sea ice floats on the surface of the Arctic Ocean and its neighbouring seas and normally covers an area of some 7 million square kilometres (2.4 million square miles) during September - about the size of Australia. However, in September 2002, this dwindled to about 2 million square miles - 16 per cent below average.

Sea ice data for August closely mirrors that for September and last month's record low - 18.2 per cent below the monthly average - strongly suggests that this September will see the smallest coverage of Arctic sea ice ever recorded.

As more and more sea ice is lost during the summer, greater expanses of open ocean are exposed to the sun which increases the rate at which heat is absorbed in the Arctic region, Dr Serreze said.

Sea ice reflects up to 80 per cent of sunlight hitting it but this "albedo effect" is mostly lost when the sea is uncovered. "We've exposed all this dark ocean to the sun's heat so that the overall heat content increases," he explained.

Current computer models suggest that the Arctic will be entirely ice-free during summer by the year 2070 but some scientists now believe that even this dire prediction may be over-optimistic, said Professor Peter Wadhams, an Arctic ice specialist at Cambridge University.

"When the ice becomes so thin it breaks up mechanically rather than thermodynamically. So these predictions may well be on the over-optimistic side," he said.

As the sea ice melts, and more of the sun's energy is absorbed by the exposed ocean, a positive feedback is created leading to the loss of yet more ice, Professor Wadhams said.

"If anything we may be underestimating the dangers. The computer models may not take into account collaborative positive feedback," he said.

Sea ice keeps a cap on frigid water, keeping it cold and protecting it from heating up. Losing the sea ice of the Arctic is likely to have major repercussions for the climate, he said. "There could be dramatic changes to the climate of the northern region due to the creation of a vast expanse of open water where there was once effectively land," Professor Wadhams said. "You're essentially changing land into ocean and the creation of a huge area of open ocean where there was once land will have a very big impact on other climate parameters," he said.
http://www.climateark.org/articles/reader.asp?linkid=46230

Moderator Action: Trolling removed
 
Found the link I mentioned a few posts back.

It's a little out of date--April of this year. Nevertheless, it demonstrates what's currently out there:

The Science Debate Behind Climate Change


(CNN) -- Is global warming really a threat?
Absolutely, respond most scientists, but they have only recently been able to approach a basic agreement about our changing climate.

First, the Earth has gotten warmer. Since 1850, average global temperatures have risen about .6 degrees Celsius, the United Nations says. Greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide released by humans burning fossil fuels and clearing land are the likely culprits. Sea levels have also risen about 4 to 8 inches during the past century, according to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency.

Second, the concentration of greenhouse gases (or GHG) in the atmosphere is near its highest point in recorded history. Since the Industrial Revolution, concentrations of carbon dioxide, a potent greenhouse gas, have risen 30 percent.

Based on studies of air bubbles trapped in ancient ice, today's levels are higher than any time in at least 420,000 years, said David King, chief science adviser for the British government. If GHG concentrations rise, as expected, concentrations could cross what some consider a "dangerous" threshold, although that designation is contentious.

Finally, almost every scientist agrees upon one thing: the future is highly uncertain. While most scientists support projections by the United Nation's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change that temperatures will rise 1.4 degrees Celsius (2.5 degrees Fahrenheit) to 5.8 degrees Celsius (10.4 degrees Fahrenheit) by 2100, the scientific consensus shows cracks beyond this point.

John Christy, director of Earth System Science Center and critic of severe warming predictions, says forecasting the future "gets messy quickly."
"The Earth system has more unknowns that we are generally willing to acknowledge," he told CNN via e-mail. "It is very difficult for [scientists] to say, 'I don't have a clue.'...Our pronouncements often express more confidence than is warranted given the level of ignorance in which we presently operate."

Climate models inherit this uncertainty. The first crude models -- spinning aluminum dishpans in the 1950s -- have evolved into some of the world's most sophisticated computer simulations replicating the interaction between the atmosphere, oceans and continents. Yet the system's complexity -- a mathematical swamp of biological cycles, ocean circulation, geologic emissions and even solar activity -- injects guesswork into the science.
Despite the uncertainties, says Drew Shindell, a NASA climate modeler at the Goddard Institute for Space Studies in New York, climate models, at least in the short term, are good and "getting better."

"The results become steadily less reliable as you go out in time," Shindell said. "We can do a pretty good job 25 to 30 years out; we have a rough idea 50 years out. By the time you get into 100 years, there's a lot of things we can't really say."

The biggest questions in the climate equation are water vapor and airborne particles called aerosols. Water vapor acts like a huge sponge soaking up energy absorbed by greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide. It is a wild card for climate modelers because water vapor may also cool the planet by increasing cloud cover. Aerosols -- which can also cool or warm the planet -- may have other unknown effects.

But Shindell says dozens of climate models run by scientists around the world convincingly describe a world sweating under the influence of greenhouse gases which trap the sun's energy.

"I think we can say very clearly, with the same amount of energy going in and less going out, [the Earth] has to warm up," he said. "That's elementary physics."

This growing confidence is the result of progress being made with climate models and deciphering cryptic clues about ancient climate in tree rings, lake sediments and ice cores. Paleo-climate measurements, once unattainable, now offer a record of global temperatures stretching back 750,000 years.

"There is no doubt that humans are warming the planet. That's very clear now," says Jeffrey Severinghaus, a geoscience researcher at the Scripps Institute of Oceanography. "The data is beautiful. It's very strong. Humans are changing the climate, and we're expected to change it a lot more in the future."

Global warming 'alarmists'?
Scientists were not always so convinced.

As early as 1979, the U.S. National Academy of Sciences reported with "high confidence" that a 1.5 to 4.5 degree Celsius temperature increase was likely if carbon dioxide levels doubled. It was greeted by a chorus of skepticism.

However, the past two decades have also seen the retreat of once noisy critics. BP, a major energy company, says it is now taking "precautionary action" against climate change by cutting greenhouse emissions and investing in mitigation of greenhouse gases.

Nonetheless, a minority of scientists reject what they call "alarmist" global warming on scientific grounds. They raise three major objections, which most researchers agree remain troublesome.


Natural climate variability is not well understood and may be greater than once thought.


Computer models are oversimplifications that cannot simulate the complexities of the real climate.


Temperature extrapolations of the past are not precise enough to make dire conclusions about "normal" warming.

Richard Lindzen, a respected meteorologist from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, says in light of these uncertainties, pronouncements about climate change are both self-serving and unscientific.

"Scientists make meaningless or ambiguous statements. Advocates and media translate statements into alarmist declarations. Politicians respond to alarm by feeding scientists more money," said Lindzen at a scientific conference this January. He added that the accepted evidence is "entirely consistent with there being virtually no problem at all."

This sentiment is in the extreme minority of the scientific community, said Richard Sommerville, meteorologist at the Scripps Institution of Oceanography, who drew a parallel with proposing that HIV does not cause AIDS.

"[Lindzen] is taken seriously because he's capable of excellent science," Sommerville said. "[But] most of the scientific community thinks he's mistaken... People are given a fair hearing and then we move on."

New research
Plenty of questionable scientific claims muddy the discussion on climate change. Extreme weather events such as last year's hurricane season in the Atlantic are not conclusively linked to global warming, say scientists at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center. It is exceedingly difficult to establishing a causal link between global warming and these events.

Even melting glaciers, such as the rapidly receding ice cap on Africa's Mount Kilimanjaro or the collapse of an Antarctic ice shelf, while consistent with climate change, cannot be decisively linked to the phenomenon.

But major studies released this year appear to buttress the belief the Earth is undergoing significant warming and will continue to do so.

Tim Barnett, a researcher with the Scripps Institute of Oceanography, told the American Association for the Advancement of Science in February that the world's oceans are heating up from the top down. Barnett found the world's six ocean basins show a .5 degree Celsius increase since the 1940s in a pattern that could only be explained by human-induced warming.

An Oxford University report, published in the journal Nature, used computers networked over the Internet to conduct one of the most powerful computer climate simulations ever attempted. It appeared to confirm that predictions of warming of at least 2 degrees Celsius -- and perhaps as high as 11 degrees Celsius -- were possible.

Ultimately, scientists who believe global warming is underway say uncertainties do not undermine the significance of the research.

"When you go to your doctor, and she says you're due for a heart attack, you don't turn around and say medicine is imperfect even if she can't predict the date of your heart attack," Sommerville said. "You take it seriously. I think climate science is in that position now."


Mixed messages here. On the one hand, the guys in the lab coats are saying global warming is "absolutely" real; on the other hand, they say it's extremely difficult to prove and that it's very hard for a scientist to say they "have no clue". I don't think this is the kind of environment in which one can say global warming is definitely a problem.

Urederra said it splendidly a while back:
If it's consensus, it isn't science. If it's science, it isn't consensus.
People must have the right to voice dissenting opinions without getting burned at the stake; that's the only way science can progress.
 
BasketCase said:
Found the link I mentioned a few posts back.

It's a little out of date--April of this year. Nevertheless, it demonstrates what's currently out there:

The Science Debate Behind Climate Change





Mixed messages here. On the one hand, the guys in the lab coats are saying global warming is "absolutely" real; on the other hand, they say it's extremely difficult to prove and that it's very hard for a scientist to say they "have no clue". I don't think this is the kind of environment in which one can say global warming is definitely a problem.

Urederra said it splendidly a while back: People must have the right to voice dissenting opinions without getting burned at the stake; that's the only way science can progress.

:crazyeyes: You HAVE a right to voice a dissenting opinion; everyone has. But you need to bring reasonable proof - which you and all the people you quoted have FAILED to do.

How come there is not a SINGLE reference in this thread that has any proper backup data indicating GW is NOT real or NOT mad-inflated?

(hint: it IS real, and it IS massively man-influenced)

How come your 'dissenters' are NOT climatologists but rather people from different fields?

How come, if science is so wrong and totally suppresses 'disssenters', how come the internet is not FULL of them, showing their proof on websites?

nah, all you ever find is either
1) outdated
2) false
3) irrelevant
4) so misconstructed logically that anyone can blow it out of the water

or all of the above.


Hmmmmmm, so much for peer pressure............... :rolleyes:
 
Many CFC members have posted proper backup data, from people in the appropriate fields (climatology, and also geology, astronomy, and biology as well--all these fields are linked to the question).

The Internet is in fact full of dissenters, with their evidence posted for everybody to see. The Internet is also full of accusations that people who post dissenting opinions get subjected to enormous pressure from their colleagues to shut their mouths.
 
BasketCase said:
Many CFC members have posted proper backup data, from people in the appropriate fields (climatology, and also geology, astronomy, and biology as well--all these fields are linked to the question).
Please, DO link those posts here, where proper first-hand studies are linked that show GW is either not real or not mainly driven by man. (have fun looking)

The Internet is in fact full of dissenters, with their evidence posted for everybody to see. The Internet is also full of accusations that people who post dissenting opinions get subjected to enormous pressure from their colleagues to shut their mouths.

well, why don't you link them then? You have been very quiet when asked to prove anything - if the proof is out there, why don't you bring it?

So far, all you have brought was
a) shown false
b) heresay and conspiracy theory
c) iditoically oversimplyfied (usually by you) and proven wrong.

Well? Shut up or money up, BasketCase!
 
BasketCase said:
A long time ago, everybody "knew" the world was flat. Those who disagreed were laughed at. Peer pressure.
That is a very long time ago, and the people who thought that the world was flat were not scientists. Aristotle proved that the Earth was round, and that theory was widely accepted even among ordinary people from the first century. Since then a few theologians proposed that the world was flat on biblical grounds, but they were a minority, and contrary to popular beliefs the flat Earth theory has never been the official stance of any major church.

Why do you use a minor theological dispute as example of scientific peer pressure? You have to find better examples than this!

The first guy who proposed that the Earth is not at the center of the Universe almost got burned at the stake. He was only spared because he recanted. EXTREME peer pressure.
Have you looked that up? Wikipedia fails to mention this detail. Instead it says for example this:
Wikipedia said:
The book caused only mild controversy at the time, and provoked no fierce sermons about contradicting holy scripture

…

It has been much debated why sixty years would pass before Copernicus' work would come under serious attack.
It seems like your theory is completely fictional. Give us a source please!


Basketcase's link said:
Finally, almost every scientist agrees upon one thing: the future is highly uncertain. While most scientists support projections by the United Nation's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change that temperatures will rise 1.4 degrees Celsius (2.5 degrees Fahrenheit) to 5.8 degrees Celsius (10.4 degrees Fahrenheit) by 2100, the scientific consensus shows cracks beyond this point.
Do you know how to interpret this section, Basketcase?

It says that virtually all climate scientists know that our climate will change as a result of human activities, but not how it will change. The controversy is only about how the climate will change as a result of the proven man made increase in global mean temperature.
 
carlosMM said:
Please, DO link those posts here, where proper first-hand studies are linked that show GW is either not real or not mainly driven by man. (have fun looking)
I don't have to. Very recently I posted a news article where the climatologists themselves say they're not certain of the results. That's all that's needed.

Besides, none of the links I posted in other threads "show GW is either not real or not mainly driven by man". What they show is that it's not known whether GW is real, and that it's not known whether GW (if it's real) is caused by man.

Edit: What the heck, here's the best link in m collection:

The Myth of Scientific Consensus on Global Warming

A survey of over 400 German, American and Canadian climate researchers conducted by Dennis Bray of the Meteorologisches Institut
der Universitat Hamburg and Hans von Storch of GKSS Forschungszentrum and reported in the United Nations Climate Change
Bulletin
, for example, found that only 10% of the researchers surveyed "strongly agreed" with the statement "We can say for certain
that global warming is a process already underway." Further, 35% of those surveyed either disagreed with the statement or were
undecided. Perhaps even more interesting, 67% of the researchers either disagreed or were uncertain about the proposition that
climate change will occur so suddenly that a lack of preparation would devastate certain parts of the world -- the underlying
assumption on which the talks in Kyoto, Japan were based. Close to half of the researchers -- 48% -- indicated that they don't have
faith in the forecasts of the global climate models, the strongest argument in favor of quick, decisive, international action to counter
the threat of global warming. Another 20% expressed uncertainty about these models.
A study BY climate researchers, at a METEOROLOGICAL institute serving the UNITED NATIONS is unimpeachable as a reliable source. That source ONLY shows that there's a lot of disagreement about global warming out there; it doesn't conclusively prove that GW is not happening, so nobody go reading that into it please.
 
Galileo and Bruno

Two other Italian scientists of the time, Galileo and Bruno, embraced the Copernican theory unreservedly and as a result suffered much personal injury at the hands of the powerful church inquisitors. Giordano Bruno had the audacity to even go beyond Copernicus, and, dared to suggest, that space was boundless and that the sun was and its planets were but one of any number of similar systems: Why! -- there even might be other inhabited worlds with rational beings equal or possibly superior to ourselves. For such blasphemy, Bruno was tried before the Inquisition, condemned and burned at the stake in 1600. Galileo was brought forward in 1633, and, there, in front of his "betters," he was, under the threat of torture and death, forced to his knees to renounce all belief in Copernican theories, and was thereafter sentenced to imprisonment for the remainder of his days.
 
Back
Top Bottom