Glory and Greatness, Development Thread

[seasnake]

Okay, need a suggestion:

I've decided that instead of free source of oil, I'm going to change it so the Arab merchants give more gold then regular merchants. This synergyzes well with their new UB, the Bazaar, which allows you to turn 3 citizens into merchants.

HOWEVER, the HRE is now really weak, it's double production of workers and settlers and a free Great General to start the game. Anyone have a suggestion or idea to pump up the HRE?

 

[Morningcalm]

So far, looking sweet. I won't really be able to give full opinions/detailed critiques til I play it, but I esp. love how you included Gran Colombia, Israel and Polynesia in your civ list! Awesome.

Maybe give the HRE some wonder/building construction-related bonuses, or religion/combat bonuses even, i.e. troops get even more XP with Vassalage/Theocracy, or something.

 

[Baldyr]

Asaf said in another thread that he would raise the number of allowed players in game from 18 to 25 in the next DLL release. Is this sufficient or G&G or do we need this limit to be even higher?

 

[Morningcalm]

Just thematically, I guess I find Babylon starting with Silk (and not China) a bit odd, and perhaps Rome's ability could be called "Eternal City" instead of "Glory of Rome"? Quite a few of the UA are named after the CiV ones, which I don't mind, but in this case you have an excellent opportunity to make the UA name even better.

Is there a list of the UB/UU etc?

 

[Baldyr]

Quite a few of the UA are named after the CiV ones, which I don't mind, but in this case you have an excellent opportunity to make the UA name even better.

If I'm not mistaken - and I haven't played CiV - this mod is in some degree based on some of the authors favorite game play changes. (Some screens and graphics are also borrowed from the new game, again if I'm not mistaken.)

On a whole I think its a brilliant idea to bring some of the improvements back to this version of the game.

 

[seasnake]

I was without internet for a while, but thanks and here's some feedback:

MC -- That's an interesting take, something that makes religion more profitable for the HRE. That would probably combine nicely with their settlers and workers.

Baldyr -- Yeah, the culture for dead units should only work if they are close to a city, in theory it's a reward for successful defense of the homeland.

25 players = more than sufficient. You should want to play several games to confront and use all the abilities.

MC -- Full UU/UB list coming soon. Most of them are done, but there are last minute changes.

Finally, this is based on some of the better things about CiV, namely extremely diverse civs vs. different leader types. Being Korea should and feel and play like a completely different experience than Rome, etc. That's the intent.

 

[Baldyr]

Further about the Japanese ability: I think I found a simple way to locate the nearest city, no matter the distance. Should this ability work on any Japanese owned tile, then? (Not only adjacent tiles.)

 

[seasnake]

Further about the Japanese ability: I think I found a simple way to locate the nearest city, no matter the distance. Should this ability work on any Japanese owned tile, then? (Not only adjacent tiles.)

Yes, if possible. That would be ideal.

Oh, and Asaf, I forgot to mention but thank you so much for your help with this project. Hopefully this can be a truly great mod.

 

[Jarlaxe Baenre]

With the Aztecs, they were actually more famous for their gold. Well, more famous to the Europeans. So perhaps you could give them gold, instead. And spain seems a bit too one-sided, their bonuses are all gold. Perhaps one naval bonus as well?

 

[Asaf]

Oh, and Asaf, I forgot to mention but thank you so much for your help with this project. Hopefully this can be a truly great mod.

You're welcome. Thank me after I've done something

 

[seasnake]

UPDATE:

Baldyr: First, a balance change. Can we change the INCA Special Power of getting a free tech in the classical and renaissance eras to be the HOLY_ROMAN Special Power? Instead, let's change the INCA to be +1 food from Hill Terrain (got the idea from the new Civ V DLC).

Spain is going to change as well, it will now have a 50 percent bonus to production of Missionaries, Spies, Scouts and Explorers.

Finally Baldyr, I've found a quick and pretty clean way to change unit train times for XML. You know how missionaries and explorers are SPECIALUNITTYPE_PEOPLE, well you can make more special unit types and name them what you want and then tie production to the trait. This means that all of the special powers that are a bonus to building a type of unit can be done through XML instead of Python. Should I just go ahead and do that, would that prevent lag and other things that you mentioned about Python?

To JB: The problem is that so was Mali and I kind of promised them Gold first. They might get upset. As for Spain, it's been changed to reflect their religious further and exploration tendencies (see updated power list).

To Asaf: Fair enough.

To MC: Because the Ottomans is the "Eternal State" and Carthage is the "The Shining City," I think calling Rome the "Eternal City" is a bit too redundant, for now "Glory of Rome" will probably stick around. But I appreciate the suggestion and wanted to let you know I had been considering it.

 

[Asaf]

Is AI_chooseFreeTech supposed to return the selected tech?
Currently it returns nothing. It already calls the 'setHasTech' internally.
Do you need this information for anything else?

EDIT:

CyTeam.setExtraForeignCombat( iCombatBonus )
CyTeam.setExtraDomesticCombat( iCombatBonus )
CyTeam.setUnitsCanHealInForeignTerritory( bEnable )

Wouldn't these be easier to handle with each civ's traits' free promotions?

 

[Baldyr]

Baldyr: First, a balance change. Can we change the INCA Special Power of getting a free tech in the classical and renaissance eras to be the HOLY_ROMAN Special Power? Instead, let's change the INCA to be +1 food from Hill Terrain (got the idea from the new Civ V DLC).

Spain is going to change as well, it will now have a 50 percent bonus to production of Missionaries, Spies, Scouts and Explorers.

Sure, its your design. I suggest you update the OP to reflect these and any future changes.

Finally Baldyr, I've found a quick and pretty clean way to change unit train times for XML. You know how missionaries and explorers are SPECIALUNITTYPE_PEOPLE, well you can make more special unit types and name them what you want and then tie production to the trait. This means that all of the special powers that are a bonus to building a type of unit can be done through XML instead of Python. Should I just go ahead and do that, would that prevent lag and other things that you mentioned about Python?

Anything you can get working with XML you should probably do. Because tapping into these Python callbacks does cause lag.

 

[Baldyr]

Is AI_chooseFreeTech supposed to return the selected tech?
Currently it returns nothing. It already calls the 'setHasTech' internally.
Do you need this information for anything else?

The method will be used to grant the AI a free Tech. There is already a variant of this for the human player: CyPlayer.chooseTech() (As discussed in this thread.)

Wouldn't these be easier to handle with each civ's traits' free promotions?

I have no idea what you mean. Giving units free promotions is hardly the same thing, right? (If dummy promotions is acceptable is basically up to seasnake.)

 

[seasnake]

The method will be used to grant the AI a free Tech. There is already a variant of this for the human player: CyPlayer.chooseTech() (As discussed in this thread.)


I have no idea what you mean. Giving units free promotions is hardly the same thing, right? (If dummy promotions is acceptable is basically up to seasnake.)

I don't think there is a way to rig a promotion that gives a bonus to fighting in your own territory vs. enemy territory, is there? I think it needs DLL.

 

[Asaf]

The method will be used to grant the AI a free Tech. There is already a variant of this for the human player: CyPlayer.chooseTech() (As discussed in this thread.)

Then no return value (same as CyPlayer.chooseTech()).

I don't think there is a way to rig a promotion that gives a bonus to fighting in your own territory vs. enemy territory, is there? I think it needs DLL.

You're right, but I can add it as new promotion properties (And see below for my take on the subject).

I have no idea what you mean. Giving units free promotions is hardly the same thing, right? (If dummy promotions is acceptable is basically up to seasnake.)

Actually, the way I see it, this is exactly what seasnake wants: Give some kind of a promotion to all units of a specific player.
The fact that there are no existing promotions that enable this does not change this fact. And as a player it will be easier for me to see it as a promotion for a unit.
How else will you represent it in the UI?

But this is of course up to seasnake: if you want me to do this directly and not using a promotion - it's your call.

Now for specifics:
What exactly does domestic/foreign combat bonus cover? Is foreign = enemy? is it enemy+neutral? (same question for healing)
I assume that this bonus acts like (for example) combat I: + X% combat for both attack and defense?
What happens in the case where an enemy unit standing in a foreign territory plot, my unit is standing in my territory, and this enemy unit attacks my unit? And what happens vice versa?

And about the healing - units can already heal in enemy territory, but it's slower than in friendly or neutral territory. So what does 'UnitsCanHealInForeignTerritory' mean exactly?

 

[Baldyr]

And about the healing - units can already heal in enemy territory, but it's slower than in friendly or neutral territory. So what does 'UnitsCanHealInForeignTerritory' mean exactly?

I updated the original post - look there first and ask if something is still unclear.

 

[seasnake]

Then no return value (same as CyPlayer.chooseTech()).



You're right, but I can add it as new promotion properties (And see below for my take on the subject).



Actually, the way I see it, this is exactly what seasnake wants: Give some kind of a promotion to all units of a specific player.
The fact that there are no existing promotions that enable this does not change this fact. And as a player it will be easier for me to see it as a promotion for a unit.
How else will you represent it in the UI?

But this is of course up to seasnake: if you want me to do this directly and not using a promotion - it's your call.

Now for specifics:
What exactly does domestic/foreign combat bonus cover? Is foreign = enemy? is it enemy+neutral? (same question for healing)
I assume that this bonus acts like (for example) combat I: + X% combat for both attack and defense?
What happens in the case where an enemy unit standing in a foreign territory plot, my unit is standing in my territory, and this enemy unit attacks my unit? And what happens vice versa?

And about the healing - units can already heal in enemy territory, but it's slower than in friendly or neutral territory. So what does 'UnitsCanHealInForeignTerritory' mean exactly?

Actually, I would want it to show up in the UI like when you show the combat odds, somethinig "+10 percent bonus in enemy territory" similar to something like "+25 percent against Barbarian units" and be a direct power, not a promotion. Of course I am more than willing to do it via a promotion, but if I'm picking and dreaming it's handled like that.

Foreign means "battle occurs in territory owned by my enemy." I'm wishing for a system where you attack and the game determines who is the owner of the plot where the combat is occurring and whether or not France is at war with this player, and if yes France gets the bonus. The deciding factor on the bonus is where the combat occurs, so if I am in my territory and my enemy is in his territory and our borders touch, I am better served to cross the border and attack him. Likewise, domestic bonus means that if I am in my territory I'm better off staying there if possible.

If this is possible that's what I want. If it's not, or someone has a better idea, I'm I'm totally okay going about it a different way to get the desired result. But as it stands I'd like to avoid using a promotion unless there's a good reason to do so.

Oh, and for each civ I'm writing a strategy guide of sorts for their CivPedia page that will explain their bonuses and offer advice, so exactly how the bonus works for the French and the Iroquois will be explained thoroughly.

As for healing and unit upgrading, change that to read "outside own borders." So the French combat bonus occurs in Enemy territory, not neutral, and the healing/upgrade bonus occurs in neutral and enemy territory.

Hope that clears that up some.

 

[Asaf]

Crystal clear

Another nit-picking question:
Does a friendly territory of a civ with which I have OB falls under 'neutral'? And what about an allied civ?

 

[seasnake]

Crystal clear

Another nit-picking question:
Does a friendly territory of a civ with which I have OB falls under 'neutral'? And what about an allied civ?

Hmmm, how about this ...

The Iroquois bonus is effective in Allied territory, the French bonus is not (because the if your enemies Allies go to war against you, you'll have the bonus against them in their territory anyway, just like your enemy's vassals). So Iroquois will be effective in OWN and ALLIED territory, France will be ENEMY territory.

An OB agreement is neutral territory, as is unclaimed territory. Incentive for the Iroquois to make a friend or two.