Go after limited and dynamic resources

vit_sin

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What if instead of steady and firm strategic resources(SR) at certain tiles forever and ever,
SR would become actually limited to some random number of mined SR_Units?

Once excavated enough SR_Units, one can spent them to build temple,library,axes,arrows,muskets,aircrafts,artillery,tanks,etc while keep mining.
Once SRs are mined out from TileA, than out of the bound of City, created new unit Happy Miner(upgraded to Mobile Mining Unit) will mine non-occupied Tiles in peace or in war - even tiles of enemy. Adding new Unit like Geologist can discover new plots for any SRs randomly.

Example: instead of having one or two Irons forever, one mining SR_Units from Iron plot #1(total of 982 SR_Units) and SR_Units from plot #2(459 SR_Units in total), but during mining, 35 SR_Units required to build Temple, 1 SR_Unit to create Warrior, 3 SR_Units to create Archer, 19 SR_Units to create Bombard, etc (any logical matrix will work).
Not all SR_Units required at once, but as mining goes - they could be used, same as for Gold: first we need to have a Gold to spend it. :) Same concept for all SRs.

So the game will become not only for certain type of Victory, but to get SRs at all to achieve this Victory.


Sounds like a big change to AI too, but don't we all want interesting next game too, say Civ VII? :)
 

TheGreatSleepyOne

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That seems like more micro management for the sake of micro managing. The mechanic you suggest sounds like it would work more in an RTS style game.
 

Leyrann

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First fix the whole idea of strategic resources.

Aluminium and iron are the two most common metals in the earth's crust.
 

Siptah

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First fix the whole idea of strategic resources.

Aluminium and iron are the two most common metals in the earth's crust.
But iron is historically a significant strategic resource. Even if only because some of the big players of the bronze age didn't have access to it (except from meteors).
And while aluminium is found plenty in many different ways in the earth, bauxite is not that common (still not particularly rare). And as you might know, in order to get aluminium, bauxite is still needed as basis as of today. So maybe they should just change aluminium to bauxite.
 

Leyrann

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But iron is historically a significant strategic resource. Even if only because some of the big players of the bronze age didn't have access to it (except from meteors).
And while aluminium is found plenty in many different ways in the earth, bauxite is not that common (still not particularly rare). And as you might know, in order to get aluminium, bauxite is still needed as basis as of today. So maybe they should just change aluminium to bauxite.

Iron wasn't sparse because people couldn't find it. It was sparse because it's harder to extract than copper (which, by the way, is much rarer than iron) is. However, when trade collapsed around 1000 BC and people couldn't get bronze and tin together anymore, it wasn't long before they figured out how to extract iron from extremely common metals, which is what started the iron age that, in all honesty, lasted until the industrial era.
And for aluminium... yes, you need bauxite. But bauxite is pretty common. Also, while aluminium has been very expensive (even more expensive than gold), that had little to do with how rare it was. Rather, the now-common method for extracting the metal had not been discovered yet.

Both metals are quite clearly a case of needing the right processing. I actually made this same argument in another thread just a few days ago. For reference, here's a list of some elements that are important to us (or were) and their abundance in the earth's crust in ppm (parts per million):

(oxygen and silicon included because they are the most common elements in the crust, also remember that they're typically bonded together with metals)

Oxygen: 474 000
Silicon: 277 100
Aluminium 82 000
Iron: 41 000
Magnesium: 26 000
Titanium: 5 600
Phosforus: 1 000
Carbon: 480
Sulfur: 260
Nickel: 80
Zinc: 75
Copper: 50 (almost a thousand times more scarce than iron!)
Cobalt: 20
Lead: 14
Tin: 2.2
Uranium: 1.8
Silver: 0.07
Mercury: 0.05
Gold: 0.0011

So for about 75%, the earth's crust is made up of oxygen and silicon, which is pretty evenly divided as it bonds with all kinds of other elements.
Of the rest, 32% is made up of aluminium. A third.
16% is made up of iron. And so on.
 

vit_sin

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@Leyrann,
+ Lumber to y list! how else one can create early game ships/forst/buildings w/o it :) If Tile has a Forest on it and we can chop it - this is it, trade it.
Why Lumber is not a strategic resource (become absolute w/ steel) never make sense to me in Civ.
 

Leyrann

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@Leyrann,
+ Lumber to y list! how else one can create early game ships/forst/buildings w/o it :) If Tile has a Forest on it and we can chop it - this is it, trade it.
Why Lumber is not a strategic resource (become absolute w/ steel) never make sense to me in Civ.

You should check out Civ 4: Colonization (note: Religion and Revolution mod on this forum highly adviced). It's got a resource system where you have different resources that you gain every turn from working tiles, and you can then process most of those resources, or alternatively sell them to the natives or in Europe. Base game's pretty bad, but Religion and Revolution shows that it's actually really awesome.
 

steve_indy

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They should add rare metals to the end of life game - titanium, nickel, platinum, etc. They could just put in a rare metal resource, maybe not break them out. That's what they're using aluminum as a placeholder for now, but really aluminum is an enabler for flight, and the others are an enabler for advanced flight (maybe require for jets, jet bombers, and modern armor).
 

Leyrann

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Aluminium isn't exactly a placeholder, appearing in 3 consecutive civs (or four; I never played civ 3 so I don't know about that).
 

steve_indy

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I meant a placeholder, as in a stand-in, for advanced materials. It's true that it has been used that way for most civ games. I've played them all, but can't remember past IV.
 

vit_sin

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That seems like more micro management for the sake of micro managing. The mechanic you suggest sounds like it would work more in an RTS style game.

I think I did not explain myself properly.
So today in Civ player collects Gold and spend it to his wish. And it make sense to everyone. Same should be for all other Strategic resources (iron,uranium,aluminum,etc).
1st, player collect it, only than spend, trade, go for war for it, etc. There should be different ways to get those resources, bind w/ Tech Tree.

Interesting, but why Food itself, can not be collected and traded? There are many countries in the world that trade Wheat and Rice and I'd like to see army w/o Food, it will stand for more than 2 weeks? ))))
 
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Leyrann

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Did you check out Civilization yet? It has exactly the system you are talking about, and it's an integral part of the gameplay.
 
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Let's take the OP's suggestion one step further...
On the one hand, Civ gets it dead wrong by having all of a given Strategic Resource show up at X time when a certain Technology is discovered. That's not how it works, and is a static system. ALL resources are in a constant process of discovery - it's the reason oil companies are spending billions looking for new sources of petroleum, and why there were Gold Rushes in the 18th and 19th centuries in the USA, Australia, and South America. In addition, resources get Depleted and stop producing usable amounts of the material - today you will look in vain for a great Gold Production around Sacramento, California, center of the 1849 Gold Rush.

But the reason I included Gold in the example, a 'Luxury' or 'Amenities' resource (to use the more general CVI term) is that the division of Resources into Strategic, Bonus, and Amenity/Luxury is artificial and stifles the potential for more dynamism in the game. The use and utility of a resource changes over time and technology.

For instance, Copper was the first metal worked, then was a requirement for producing Bronze - therefore, a Bonus resource for tools and a Strategic Resource for weapons AT THE SAME TIME. Today, it is rarely used for either, but copper wiring was a requirement for electrifying cities and countries in the Industrial/Modern Eras, and so could be defined in those periods as a Bonus/Luxury resource again.

Gold has always been a Luxury, but has also been one of the basic metals (along with Silver) for producing coinage, and therefore a requirement for trade and markets before the 'invention' of paper money and bank notes. It is also widely used for electrical connections in solid-state electronics, and therefore in the Information Age is both a Strategic (computers on ships, planes, war machines) and Trade/Luxury (personal electronics) resource.

Probably looking ahead to Civ VII here, but Resources should appear as you get the technology to find them, should deplete if you extract them for too long and continuously, and be simply characterized as Resources with their actual use dependent on your Technology and Requirements at a given point in the game. Thus at various times a resource might be required to build certain units, buildings, etc., or be a Trade Good for both economic and diplomatic purposes, or Enable the manufacturing of certain Luxury/Amenity-producing goods for the population. They may be Requirements for certain actions in the game: many Wonders require specific materials to build, for instance - have no Copper to make Bronze, and you are not going to build the Colossus, which was a cast bronze statue.

And, to remark on the other posts, the over-all 'availability' of a raw resource on the earth has little bearing on the availability of the resource to a civilization. Other factors are usually far more important, such as physical or technological capability to extract it. Aluminum maybe very abundant, but getting it out of the ore required large amounts of hydroelectric power, so actual production wound up being dependent on that, rather than the amount/placement of the ore. Likewise, any Bulk Resource (like Food or Iron/Aluminum ore) that was located more than 200 kilometers from a coast or river before the invention of the railroad could not be economically transported anywhere. It was technologically impossible without boats or trains - or, in the Modern Era, truck fleets.

And finally finally, almost all 'Resources' have Substitutes - or should have in the game. Don't have Oil? You can 'manufacture' fuels from coal and other hydrocarbons to take its place. It's more expensive and requires diverting Industrial Resources to do it, but Nazi Germany did it a lot in the last years of WWII. Likewise, even without Aluminum aircraft can be built from wood laminates, steel alloys and (in Information Era +) composite materials using ceramics and plastics. Another possibility to keep a Depletion Of Resources mechanism from Ruining Your Game is to increase the profitability of trading resources with City States or even Barbarians so 'alternate' sources are always (with some effort!) available.
 

Leyrann

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this is low, I mean very low )))) How many floppy disks was Civ I on, do u re-call ?


I see, so u saying Bonus Resources like wheat and rice could be traded in Civ VI? Looks like I've missed it )))

My bad. Meant to say Colonization.
 

Leyrann

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What I just realized to myself - one of the biggest problems with strategic resources is that you're screwed if you don't have them. If you don't have the right resource, then you also can't get a substitute. In real life, if you're lacking a material - well, you probably won't even realize it until you come across it, but typically, you'll have found a workaround, using another material, which might be less effective but still does it's job. In modern times that's even more the case. There is thousands of different materials out there, and you pick the one with the best combination of properties. But there's 10 more that are just a little bit worse but would do the job too.
 

vit_sin

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What I just realized to myself - one of the biggest problems with strategic resources is that you're screwed if you don't have them.

Bingo! Thank you!
And that's exactly why I suggest to allow to mine/extract/excavate such Strategic Resources using Mobile Happy Miner (with whole new idea of new units like geologist / mobile stations) in any remote location on map! In war time, this is an easy target if unprotected, IMO, adding whole new dynamics to the game.
 

Leyrann

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Bingo! Thank you!
And that's exactly why I suggest to allow to mine/extract/excavate such Strategic Resources using Mobile Happy Miner (with whole new idea of new units like geologist / mobile stations) in any remote location on map! In war time, this is an easy target if unprotected, IMO, adding whole new dynamics to the game.

I realize that often, the core of a paragraph is in the first sentence of the paragraph. It can, however, also be in the last or second-to-last sentence. In this case, it is.
 
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