Going Clear: Scientology And The Prison Of Belief

[Timsup2nothin]

Well, actually, yeah, that's something they do with a fair share of their members.

Really? That doesn't seem very profitable. I thought they were into having middle to upper class income members that paid for 'services' that amount to seminars on how to pitch scientology with a little bit of somewhat useful stuff thrown in. I know some of those 'courses' are given at retreats, but I didn't think they were long term hangouts for initiate level folks.

The usual cult drawing from the poor and unwanted is a very low profit model, and I can't see Scientology being interested in that market. Now I'm curious.

 

[AcetyleneLamp]

Maybe this works as kind of a TLDR version of Going Clear:


Link to video.

 

[Wolfbeckett]

Finally got around to watching this over the weekend. It didn't really tell me anything I didn't already know, but it is always nice to have my disdain for this organization reinforced. I definitely came out of it thinking Miscavige is more of a scumbag than ever before though.

 

[Antilogic]

I love the dynamic with Tims and Hygro in this thread.

"It's not like they do X, though."

"Actually, they do X."

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I love the dynamic with Tims and Hygro in this thread.

"It's not like they do X, though."

"Actually, they do X."

I'm still researching that. Near as I have made out so far Scientology compounds are getaways for their uppermost elite, not isolation units for indoctrination of new/marginally committed members. I am still looking though.

 

[Borachio]

Isn't Scientology just a pyramid scam to get money out of newcomers?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Isn't Scientology just a pyramid scam to get money out of newcomers?

It actually gets a lot more money out of the not newcomers, and isn't really a pyramid as the ones getting the money are a small top end elite. The 'courses' offered increase in price as you progress, so the costs are not really borne primarily at the entry level. It's also not a Ponzi scheme in that the 'taken' do not have any promise of being able to recoup through the 'taking' of the next generation of victims.

 

[Borachio]

Oh. OK. That makes some sense. Scientology seems to get its victims addicted to its courses. It's a neat trick. The more you invest in something the more you're likely to value it and want to continue buying into it. Until you reach a point where you've had enough, I suppose.

Except that this:

and isn't really a pyramid as the ones getting the money are a small top end elite

doesn't make much sense. How is that not a pyramid?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

A pyramid involves me (for example) at the top drawing from you and say...Warpus. You and Warpus, in turn, draw from the next layer, which draws from the next layer, etc.

In Scientology, the elite cadre draw directly from everyone. New members pay for introductory courses. Longer term members pay for more expensive advanced courses. Even longer term members pay even more for even more advanced courses, and so on.

 

[Borachio]

Oh. OK. That is how a pyramid selling scheme typically works, yes.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Always glad to be of help.

 

[Borachio]

It's still a pyramid, though, isn't it? Simply by having a small elite at the top benefiting.

It's just not propagating itself through the pyramid-scheme business model.

Maybe it should. Scientology seems to be struggling, with a falling membership. Even that guy, Tommy somebody (I forget, not Cruise - another one), has left it.

edit: Tommy Davis, that's it!

 

[Timsup2nothin]

It's still a pyramid, though, isn't it? Simply by having a small elite at the top benefiting.

It's just not propagating itself through the pyramid-scheme business model.

Maybe it should. Scientology seems to be struggling, with a falling membership. Even that guy, Tommy somebody (I forget, not Cruise - another one), has left it.

edit: Tommy Davis, that's it!

I dunno. I think of it more as a standard corporate work force model. You have a small executive force making the big salaries and a bunch of drones doing the work of teaching the courses. The actual members appear to be pretty much just customers, near as I can make out. That's why I'm having a hard time with calling it a cult...it seems to be purely pay to play, not come and join us and give us your life in trade. But I may be missing something.

 

[illram]

I'm still researching that. Near as I have made out so far Scientology compounds are getaways for their uppermost elite, not isolation units for indoctrination of new/marginally committed members. I am still looking though.

They literally imprison troublesome people or people who are otherwise deviating, or people who for some reason they want to control, in isolated work camps. Of course the people who are imprisoned claim it is voluntary, in typical cult fashion.

You should watch the documentary, it talks to people that this happened to and has a very extensive segment on this practice. They've done the research for you. The current head honcho himself has his own secret compound where he put some higher ups in confinement for years, and arguably (to me) psychologically tortured them.

Anyways even if people are not physically imprisoned, the way they make people completely cut off their family members and friends if they are deemed "suppressive persons" is a mental prison. Which is probably the worst kind.

Cult/no cult...whatever. "Cult" is a funny word and I don't think the term in and of itself is all that meaningful since it's pejoratively thrown around alot. The true bottom line for me is it a harmful & corrupt belief system selling fraudulent self help for monetary gain and delusions of grandeur for the people at the top.

 

[Cutlass]

Why exactly has it been so difficult to investigate/prosecute them?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

They literally imprison troublesome people or people who are otherwise deviating, or people who for some reason they want to control, in isolated work camps. Of course the people who are imprisoned claim it is voluntary, in typical cult fashion.

You should watch the documentary, it talks to people that this happened to and has a very extensive segment on this practice. They've done the research for you. The current head honcho himself has his own secret compound where he put some higher ups in confinement for years, and arguably (to me) psychologically tortured them.

Anyways even if people are not physically imprisoned, the way they make people completely cut off their family members and friends if they are deemed "suppressive persons" is a mental prison. Which is probably the worst kind.

Cult/no cult...whatever. "Cult" is a funny word and I don't think the term in and of itself is all that meaningful since it's pejoratively thrown around alot. The true bottom line for me is it a harmful & corrupt belief system selling fraudulent self help for monetary gain and delusions of grandeur for the people at the top.

I generally take the whole "disgruntled former whatever" reporting with such huge amounts of salt that watching the documentary may not get me very far, but I'll catch it at some point just to see.

On the cutting off of friends and family members...that happens when people get into new things, not just creepy cult things.

I also can't kick too hard about the "selling self help for monetary gain" because I've done that myself...and even gurus gotta eat. Truth is, very few people will take free advice anyway, so to actually be helpful you pretty much have to charge for it.

 

[illram]

@Cutlass: The short answer: they have no qualms with resorting to criminal behavior to silence critics, and they basically extorted the IRS into writing off their billion dollar tax bill by initiating hundreds of lawsuits against the IRS and individual IRS officials, whose on and "off duty" activities unfortunately made them easy targets. The religious exemption that followed has stymied most future efforts at reining them in, both public and private.

 

[illram]

I generally take the whole "disgruntled former whatever" reporting with such huge amounts of salt that watching the documentary may not get me very far, but I'll catch it at some point just to see.

On the cutting off of friends and family members...that happens when people get into new things, not just creepy cult things.

I also can't kick too hard about the "selling self help for monetary gain" because I've done that myself...and even gurus gotta eat. Truth is, very few people will take free advice anyway, so to actually be helpful you pretty much have to charge for it.

The documentary is not done by a former disgruntled whomever. As for "everyone does that..." no not like they do. They're rather special. Just watch it, seriously.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

They literally imprison troublesome people or people who are otherwise deviating, or people who for some reason they want to control, in isolated work camps. Of course the people who are imprisoned claim it is voluntary, in typical cult fashion.

You should watch the documentary, it talks to people that this happened to and has a very extensive segment on this practice. They've done the research for you. The current head honcho himself has his own secret compound where he put some higher ups in confinement for years, and arguably (to me) psychologically tortured them.

Anyways even if people are not physically imprisoned, the way they make people completely cut off their family members and friends if they are deemed "suppressive persons" is a mental prison. Which is probably the worst kind.

Cult/no cult...whatever. "Cult" is a funny word and I don't think the term in and of itself is all that meaningful since it's pejoratively thrown around alot. The true bottom line for me is it a harmful & corrupt belief system selling fraudulent self help for monetary gain and delusions of grandeur for the people at the top.

That's what I meant when I said 'disgruntled former whatever reporting'. There's a cadre of disgruntled former employees for every company, disgruntled former members for every church. Heck, I'm a disgruntled former member of the Republican party, and they'd probably rather I got shot in the head than connected to the internet.

Like I said, I'll watch it when I get a chance.