Hostile? They have reduced base.
Going for Gold: Enhancer Beliefs
- Thread starter Stalker0
- Start date
Hostile? They have reduced base.
The CS was my friend already before I got the Belief. And the influence just kept decreasing...
Weird. There's nothing in the code that would cause that.
I started another game just to make sure and tested again. Same thing - the set level is definitely 20 and not 35.
I'll look, might be a weird merge.
Sacred Calender vs Symbolism
Right now I've been having trouble justifying sacred calendar. While it technically has better scaling benefits, a few gold and GAP aren't going to sway me.
The +2 GPP to all is still a very strong benefit. Much stronger than 15% GP during GA. Now later game the scaling from Sacred Calendar should overtake it, but yields early generally trump yields late.
Lastly, religion erosion is better than stronger missionaries.
I don't think Symbolism is radically better, but still demonstrably better. I would recommend we swap the erosion and stronger missionary benefits, that may help balance the books.
Right now I've been having trouble justifying sacred calendar. While it technically has better scaling benefits, a few gold and GAP aren't going to sway me.
The +2 GPP to all is still a very strong benefit. Much stronger than 15% GP during GA. Now later game the scaling from Sacred Calendar should overtake it, but yields early generally trump yields late.
Lastly, religion erosion is better than stronger missionaries.
I don't think Symbolism is radically better, but still demonstrably better. I would recommend we swap the erosion and stronger missionary benefits, that may help balance the books.
Religion erosion isn't just better - it's the only realistic way other than mass prophets to convert anything after Renaissance. I'd like to see an erosion mechanic that's more standardized and an Inquisitor mechanic that's much weaker than it is now.
My overall thoughts on the Enhancers currently. Overall, the vast majority are in a good place to me, they all have value.
If we wanted to make the missionary strength increase better, you could take the 25% stronger prophet from prophecy and combine the two together (aka 25% stronger missionaries and prophets). I like prophecy and I use it, but I never do it for the strong prophets (I do it for tile porn!)...so dropping that benefit to me has no impact on prophecy.
Conceptually Adobe of Peace looks cool and I've tried it, I'm just yet sure how much impact its having. One question I had, does the 20% city quest bonus only apply to CS of your religion, or is that a general bonus? I also forget, if it 35 or 40 that's the minimum for friendship? I would imagine this might be a strong believe on a Terra map....as you can send missionaries to the foreign CS and get immediate influence going. While you can do that on most maps those foreign CS are going to have a lot of baggage pressure to deal with.
The only Enhancer that is an F for me is Inquisition. Its a grab bag of bonuses, and the spy bonus isn't good enough to make use my spies in an alternate way from what I will use them for. Also inquisitors are too reactive a unit to be used in this way imo.
I was a big fan of this concept from the belief discussion, which keeps parts of this belief but in a way that I think is more intuitive.
Proselytismus:
Cities which are target of a trade route receive +40 religious pressure
Gain +1
trade route
+10
from the East India Company
If we wanted to make the missionary strength increase better, you could take the 25% stronger prophet from prophecy and combine the two together (aka 25% stronger missionaries and prophets). I like prophecy and I use it, but I never do it for the strong prophets (I do it for tile porn!)...so dropping that benefit to me has no impact on prophecy.
Conceptually Adobe of Peace looks cool and I've tried it, I'm just yet sure how much impact its having. One question I had, does the 20% city quest bonus only apply to CS of your religion, or is that a general bonus? I also forget, if it 35 or 40 that's the minimum for friendship? I would imagine this might be a strong believe on a Terra map....as you can send missionaries to the foreign CS and get immediate influence going. While you can do that on most maps those foreign CS are going to have a lot of baggage pressure to deal with.
The only Enhancer that is an F for me is Inquisition. Its a grab bag of bonuses, and the spy bonus isn't good enough to make use my spies in an alternate way from what I will use them for. Also inquisitors are too reactive a unit to be used in this way imo.
I was a big fan of this concept from the belief discussion, which keeps parts of this belief but in a way that I think is more intuitive.
Proselytismus:
Cities which are target of a trade route receive +40 religious pressure
Gain +1
trade route+10
from the East India Company
pineappledan
Deity
It’s proselytism in English. “Proselytismus” is German. I don’t have any problems with this idea - I tried to incorporate this belief into my proposals under the name “Emirates”. If a belief is going to invoke proselytism then it should be one that augments missionaries.Proselytismus:
Cities which are target of a trade route receive +40 religious pressure
Gain +1
+10
In lieu of the discussion of changing the God of Commerce Pantheon, you could change this proposal to:(Enhancer) - Emirates (replaces Mendicancy)
Religion spreads to friendly City-States at double rate
Religious pressure via Trade Routes doubled
2for Trade Routes to Cities following your religion and 2
(Enhancer) - Emirates (replaces Mendicancy)
Religion spreads to friendly City-States at double rate
Religious pressure via Trade Routes doubled
1
and 1 for each Trade Route to/from cities following this religionit would use the same code as my God of Commerce change proposal, so Emirates wouldn't use any new code.
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It’s proselytism in English. “Proselytismus” is German. I don’t have any problems with this idea - I tried to incorporate this belief into my proposals under the name “Emirates”. If a belief is going to invoke proselytism then it should be one that augments missionaries.
In lieu of the discussion of changing the God of Commerce Pantheon, you could change this proposal to:
(Enhancer) - Emirates (replaces Mendicancy)
Religion spreads to friendly City-States at double rate
Religious pressure via Trade Routes doubled
1
it would use the same code as my God of Commerce change proposal, so Emirates wouldn't use any new code.
I'm actually using Medicancy in my current game and enjoying it and wouldn't want to see it go, but to be sure I think it could be stronger than it is.
pineappledan
Deity
Stronger isn't the aim, just more in line with other enhancer beliefs.
If more founder beliefs were ever to be added, I would like to see Mendicancy moved to a founder. The belief's bonuses are per city and it doesn't feel like an enhancer:
If more founder beliefs were ever to be added, I would like to see Mendicancy moved to a founder. The belief's bonuses are per city and it doesn't feel like an enhancer:
- no interactions with inquisitors/GPs/misionaries,
- nothing to spend faith on,
- no added pressure/resistance,
- doesn't scale with converted followers or cities
While I've been agreeing with you a lot lately, I'm just not buying what your selling in this case.
Omen of Peace
Prince
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2018
- Messages
- 404
I agree that Inquisition should change, but I actually posted recently about the situation where it's amazing: early conquest. Getting 1000s of gold in Medieval by converting cities that you've conquered helps you snowball farther.
I still support splitting the GPP from (former) Iconography into two Enhancers, if only to try it out.
So I took a strong look at Adobe of Peace, and ultimately I'm finding it underwhelming.
The trick is, the 35 minimum influence does not immediately appear, it slows grows to that level with time. I think the best benefit of that belief was the idea that when you discover new CS in the midgame, you could send missionaries instead of envoys to secure friendships....a solid niche. However, considering both the slow growth, and the fact that often these far away CS are going to be heavily influenced by other religions....its a lot of faith cost for what turns out to be a fairly lackluster benefit.
The trick is, the 35 minimum influence does not immediately appear, it slows grows to that level with time. I think the best benefit of that belief was the idea that when you discover new CS in the midgame, you could send missionaries instead of envoys to secure friendships....a solid niche. However, considering both the slow growth, and the fact that often these far away CS are going to be heavily influenced by other religions....its a lot of faith cost for what turns out to be a fairly lackluster benefit.
JamesNinelives
Emperor
Missionary spam can work as well depending on the situation, it's just tedious. I've converted and kept individual cities and also civs that were in a state of flux/competition post-renaissance... eventually.
JamesNinelives
Emperor
If you have nothing else to do with your faith netting a few extra cities is worthwhile IMO. You can save it for Great People but at a certain point those costs get really high. Missionaries aren't very strong but they have a niche IMO.
pineappledan
Deity
I mentioned this in the general 04-17 thread, but with the change to Inquisitors, and with religious pressure actually working correctly, I think Orthodoxy is overpowered, bordering on a game-ending superweapon in the right hands.
I don't expect Inquisitors to persist in this current form for more than 1-2 patches; the population loss AND yield/happiness spike makes them too gruesome to really use except in desperate circumstances, but if the inquisitors are going to retain some sort of malus, a belief that buffs 4 different types of free passive pressure is a terrifying offensive weapon. My most recent game, I played with my New Beliefs mod and picked Emirates, a new Enhancer that only gives you 1 of Orthodoxy's 4 existing bonuses (3x pressure onTRs), and that was more than enough on its own.
Maybe this is a challenge for @BiteInTheMark, our resident India player, but I would like to see someone go India with 2 faith buildings and Orthodoxy, and see if they couldn't swallow their continent whole with just a few trade routes?
I don't expect Inquisitors to persist in this current form for more than 1-2 patches; the population loss AND yield/happiness spike makes them too gruesome to really use except in desperate circumstances, but if the inquisitors are going to retain some sort of malus, a belief that buffs 4 different types of free passive pressure is a terrifying offensive weapon. My most recent game, I played with my New Beliefs mod and picked Emirates, a new Enhancer that only gives you 1 of Orthodoxy's 4 existing bonuses (3x pressure on
TRs), and that was more than enough on its own.Maybe this is a challenge for @BiteInTheMark, our resident India player, but I would like to see someone go India with 2 faith buildings and Orthodoxy, and see if they couldn't swallow their continent whole with just a few trade routes?
I'm copying this post from another thread.
I decided to do the math today to see how bad sacred calendar is (compared to symbolism). The answer is BAD.
With symbolism if you have +75% great people (garden + tradition + artistry reaches 75%), those 2 points are actually worth 3.5 a turn.
For an extra 15% in golden ages to be worth 3.5 points, you need a base of 23.33 great person points.
7 scientists (21) + school of philosophy (3) would have a base of 24. So in this situation, with permanent golden age, sacred calendar earns 0.1 more scientist points, but would still earn less of all other great people types.
If you add more GPP buffs (leaning tower, ideologies, civ bonuses, etc.), the situation favors symbolism even more.
I decided to do the math today to see how bad sacred calendar is (compared to symbolism). The answer is BAD.
With symbolism if you have +75% great people (garden + tradition + artistry reaches 75%), those 2 points are actually worth 3.5 a turn.
For an extra 15% in golden ages to be worth 3.5 points, you need a base of 23.33 great person points.
7 scientists (21) + school of philosophy (3) would have a base of 24. So in this situation, with permanent golden age, sacred calendar earns 0.1 more scientist points, but would still earn less of all other great people types.
If you add more GPP buffs (leaning tower, ideologies, civ bonuses, etc.), the situation favors symbolism even more.
JamesNinelives
Emperor
I agree that Symbolism is stronger than Sacred Calender. What I'm unsure about is how they compare to other enhancers. Does Sacred Calender need a buff, or should Symbolism get a nerf? Or both? (If that's possible without going overboard.)
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