Going for Gold: Start Locations

[TwoPodRay]

Hey guys, long time lurker here, finally made an account to start pitching in on some of these threads before we are locked for gold! I’ve been doing a lot of customizing of the mods and betas as they’ve been pushed out so I’ve had a bit of time to dig around in most of VP mod files to understand how they all work together, but this one is a bit confusing based on the way it was originally coded.

I did some digging around in the Civ 5 base game code (not in Vox Populi code) and found the following file at the following location, also duplicated in Expansion and Expansion2 folders:

CIV5Civilizations.xml @ C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Sid Meier’s Civilization V\Assets\Gameplay\XML\Civilizations

What I found in here were a few interesting “Notes To Modders”. The most pertinent note states the following:

Each Civ can belong to only one of the four Start Bias Categories, listed here in order of priority: Start Ocean, Start River, Region Priority, Region Avoid. If a Civ has entries in any of the four following tables, any entries in later tables will end up being ignored. The best practice is to pick one of the four types (or none) for each Civ.

If you want to see full details and the other notes just navigate to this file at this location and search “Start_Along_Ocean” using Ctrl + f to find the start of the notes, though I wouldn’t suggest making any changes here of course.

I think this is key to our understanding of how the coding for this section will work. Sorry if there are any errors here. No internet at home so I’m using my phone.

 

[chicorbeef]

Hey guys, long time lurker here, finally made an account to start pitching in on some of these threads before we are locked for gold! I’ve been doing a lot of customizing of the mods and betas as they’ve been pushed out so I’ve had a bit of time to dig around in most of VP mod files to understand how they all work together, but this one is a bit confusing based on the way it was originally coded.

I did some digging around in the Civ 5 base game code (not in Vox Populi code) and found the following file at the following location, also duplicated in Expansion and Expansion2 folders:

CIV5Civilizations.xml @ C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Sid Meier’s Civilization V\Assets\Gameplay\XML\Civilizations

What I found in here were a few interesting “Notes To Modders”. The most pertinent note states the following:

Each Civ can belong to only one of the four Start Bias Categories, listed here in order of priority: Start Ocean, Start River, Region Priority, Region Avoid. If a Civ has entries in any of the four following tables, any entries in later tables will end up being ignored. The best practice is to pick one of the four types (or none) for each Civ.

If you want to see full details and the other notes just navigate to this file at this location and search “Start_Along_Ocean” using Ctrl + f to find the start of the notes, though I wouldn’t suggest making any changes here of course.

I think this is key to our understanding of how the coding for this section will work. Sorry if there are any errors here. No internet at home so I’m using my phone.

Thank you for this!

 

[chicorbeef]

The Necromancy: Part II.

Bringing this up again....can we remove irrelevant start biases? At least things like Korean coastal bias.

Imo, Japan, Byzantium, Korea, Assyria, China, Germany, Rome, America, Austria, Greece, Persia, and Ethiopia, are all civs that don't really need their start biases.

I understand that there are many more civs that could go without their start biases but most of them have some game element to go along with it. Like Shoshone's Plains/Grassland start supports Encampment. Poland and the Ducal Stables, Mongolia and their Ger/Horses access, Morocco/Arabia as trader/market civs being near deserts. If there is even a small amount of synergy with the start bias, I think it's worth keeping.

But the civs I listed above simply don't have any synergy with their start biases that I can see and aren't particularly flavourful either concerning to their history so I think they should just be removed. I don't like it when every Korea game begins on the Coast....

 

[Legen]

Some of these civs only had their bias justified by their uniques in vanilla. Korea had the Turtle Ship, Japan had the bonus culture on fishing ships and atolls, Byzantium had a naval UU, etc. With many of these gone, the starting bias could be rearranged.

I'd add The Celts to the list, they have their forest bias because their vanilla UA had their bonus faith tied to having a nearby forest tile. It is no longer necessary, and they can easily adapt to other terrains with their unique pantheons, notably coastal.

 

[chicorbeef]

I'd add The Celts to the list, they have their forest bias because their vanilla UA had their bonus faith tied to having a nearby forest tile. It is no longer necessary, and they can easily adapt to other terrains with their unique pantheons, notably coastal.

The Celts should probably just have no start bias. They have a Forest pantheon, a Coastal pantheon, and a Hill-based UU, so they do well in nearly all terrain types and shouldn't be restricted.

 

[Chandler]

Morocco/Arabia as trader/market civs being near deserts. If there is even a small amount of synergy with the start bias, I think it's worth keeping.

Hmm... What's the synergy between Morocco/Arabia and deserts? I don't see any, leaving flavor aside.

 

[theMisterRud]

Hmm... What's the synergy between Morocco/Arabia and deserts? I don't see any, leaving flavor aside.

Petra's additional trade route benefits both

 

[Chandler]

Petra's additional trade route benefits both

Umh... My mistake. However, I'd say Petra's additional trade route benefits all civs, although Germany or the Ottomans would benefit as much as Arabia (if not more) from it. Could say the same thing about Portugal, Venice, and Carthage, but I guess they work better as coastal civs.

In any case, to me it seem's a poor reason for a start bias: get a better shot at a key (questionable) wonder. If you fail, you get nothing, and only one civ can build it.

 

[theMisterRud]

Umh... My mistake. However, I'd say Petra's additional trade route benefits all civs, although Germany or the Ottomans would benefit as much as Arabia (if not more) from it. Could say the same thing about Portugal, Venice, and Carthage, but I guess they work better as coastal civs.

In any case, to me it seem's a poor reason for a start bias: get a better shot at a key (questionable) wonder. If you fail, you get nothing, and only one civ can build it.

sounds like you are making an argument for removing Petra's desert requirement, more than anything (which I'm not against, mind you)

 

[TwoPodRay]

I don’t believe Petra should have desert requirement removed, just as Colossus should not have coastal requirement removed. If a new non-terrain traderoute based wonder should be introduced then okay, but these wonders should built where they were IRL. It’s also unique. One could argue for terrain requirements for all wonders of course (Great Pyramids in desert) but I don’t know if we need more than one wonder for certain terrain types.

 

[chicorbeef]

In any case, to me it seem's a poor reason for a start bias: get a better shot at a key (questionable) wonder. If you fail, you get nothing, and only one civ can build it.

Morocco's UA depends on Trade Routes and they get a shot at Petra for an extra Trade Route. Arabia has its UB (a Market, no less) on the same tech as Petra and the UB gives tourism from trading with civs.

Might not be amazing synergy, but they're reasons nonetheless and Desert bias isn't exactly crowded (and there is the thematic element of Arabia/Morocco beginning on Desert that Germany etc. doesn't have...start biases need to have both gameplay/thematic reasons imo), so if any civ deserves to start near it, it's them.

My issue is more when Maya/Siam/Iroquois get screwed because Germany/America started near forests for no reason whatsoever. I recently loaded up a Maya game and quit on Turn 1 due to there being no forests or jungles whatsoever.

 

[Owlbebach]

I recently loaded up a Maya game and quit on Turn 1 due to there being no forests or jungles whatsoever (could've continued but didn't really feel like it).

I always reroll in that case. It like playing without UA, whats the point in that? Might as well play Inca without mountains or landlocked Polynesia

 

[Moi Magnus]

Sorry if this feels like spam but I think start biases should be sorted out before we go Gold. I also feel like we should have some discussion on what biases should stay and which should go.

This thread sound more appropriate to continue this debate